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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#47101: May 20th 2021 at 9:25:07 AM

You know he just did that because he though Ego just wanted them back as their father. He wasn't aware he was killing them. When he learned what he was actually doing he even ensured Peter would be fine.

  • Peter Quill: Guess I should be glad I was a skinny kid. Otherwise, you’d have delivered me to this maniac.
  • Yondu Udonta: You still reckon that’s the reason I kept you around, you idiot?
  • Peter Quill: That’s what you told me, you old doofus.
  • Yondu Udonta: Once I figured out what happened to them other kids… I wasn’t just gonna hand you over.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#47102: May 20th 2021 at 9:26:43 AM

I didn’t do Yondu because of the power reason; is he too powerful and does he rely too much on his fighting skills?

Edited by k410ren on May 20th 2021 at 12:33:57 PM

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#47104: May 20th 2021 at 9:33:06 AM

Unfortunate no to Rocket the Trash Panda.

[down] Quote works.

Edited by SkyCat32 on May 20th 2021 at 12:35:06 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#47105: May 20th 2021 at 9:33:13 AM

Would like feedback on the quote.

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#47107: May 20th 2021 at 9:37:41 AM

I do think Rocket is morally ambiguous enough for this, but a big part of his character is how insecure he is. By the time he overcomes that I feel he's too heroic, just being a Jerk with a Heart of Gold. I can't see him as magnificent when he's a bastard. [tdown] Rocket.

Edited by jjjj2 on May 20th 2021 at 12:42:31 PM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#47108: May 20th 2021 at 9:40:16 AM

I'll admit that I can see Rocket being enough of a bastard, it's established that he's the most immoral of the gang and is still clearly willing to do some shady shit, but yeah, I can't really see him as "Magnificent" per say.

[tdown] to Rocket.

[down][down][down] In his defense, there was the time when he killed a bunch of bad guys using only his weird hat thingy. Twice.

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on May 20th 2021 at 9:53:03 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#47109: May 20th 2021 at 9:44:53 AM

I don't really agree with the idea that Rocket is not enough of a Bastard I mean he is the Token Evil Teammate of the group but I don't really see him nailing the magnificence part down enough [tdown].

TiMBer1566 kittykat from Virginia Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
kittykat
#47110: May 20th 2021 at 9:45:42 AM

@k410ren I don't think a character is ever too powerful to be this trope.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#47111: May 20th 2021 at 9:46:14 AM

When it comes to Youndu I can't remember him pulling of anything super impressive.

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#47112: May 20th 2021 at 10:13:49 AM

[tup] for Ra's al Ghul, Maude, Customer Service, and Yamikage.

[tdown] for Rocket. Great character and fun to watch, but no.

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#47113: May 20th 2021 at 10:37:53 AM

I mean, I dunno... I kinda think Yondu could qualify. It doesn't seem there's much interest in him getting an EP, but I will note that he's very clever and creative, especially with the arrow, which we are explicitly shown is a learned skill and not something anyone could just use. And the Ego thing isn't disqualifying— not only was he unaware, he's shown to have serious standards in other areas which would mitigate that— my sole issue is that he admittedly isn't shown having some great number of elaborate plans but I remember him being quite an intelligent on-the-fly thinker.

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#47114: May 20th 2021 at 10:55:16 AM

[tdown] Rocket.

Very tentative yes to Yondu.

Edited by Melinda on May 20th 2021 at 10:55:24 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#47115: May 20th 2021 at 10:56:49 AM

[up]We need an EP for that.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#47116: May 20th 2021 at 11:30:45 AM

k4, it was a noble effort and you definitely put thought into it. I unfortunately gotta say [tdown] to Rocket though. Sorry.

I’d definitely hear out Yondu. Heck, I’d hear out Nebula, but she’s clearly too damaged to count as this though.

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#47117: May 20th 2021 at 11:32:23 AM

[up][up]Not saying I feel up to making an EP for Yondu myself, just that I might vote for him.

Additionally, the argument that no DCAU related version of the Riddler can work as an MB is completely bogus (although there may be other disqualifying points for his comic counterparts) given how Lex Luthor is allowed to be recognized as evolving into an MB in the second half of Justice League even when he doesn't qualify based on his earlier appearances.

Edited by Melinda on May 20th 2021 at 11:33:13 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#47118: May 20th 2021 at 11:38:31 AM

I'm not saying he can't count. When he's villainous he's a Smug Snake. I don't know how morally ambiguous he is when he's heroic, but Ravok seems to think he doesn't count then. And if he doesn't count then, then he can't count at all.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#47119: May 20th 2021 at 11:58:52 AM

Yes to Yamikage and the quote no to Rocket

I wouldn't be opposed to a Yondu EP.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#47121: May 20th 2021 at 1:27:32 PM

'No' to Rocket, would be open to an EP on Yondu, though!

Riddler doesn't count in any way, shape, or form in the DCAU. You wanna talk exclusively the comics? Ok, how about the time he got outwitted by Clock King and left in a coma? Or the time he flew into a petty rage because the rookie villain "Kim" started stealing his schtick? Or the fact that his literal last major appearance in Gotham Adventures has him horrified when he realizes his offshore bank accounts have been emptied by Robin and left him outsmarted and broken?

Even his temporary Heel–Face Turn didn't last long, with him defaulting back to crime and subconsciously giving himself away to Batman because of his mental disorder, to which he outright admits in a bit of Villainous BSoD that he has a problem and will likely always be caught because of it.

There's several reasons why Riddler doesn't count, even if we just wanted to take his comics iteration into account.

Edited by Ravok on May 20th 2021 at 1:30:08 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#47122: May 20th 2021 at 1:32:28 PM

I wasn't aware the arrow required skill, in that case I guess an EP of Yondu could work.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#47123: May 20th 2021 at 1:39:28 PM

[tdown]Rocket.

  • Batman Beyond: Curare is a member of the Society of Assassins, and considered their deadliest member. Armed with excellent martial arts skills and a deadly scimitar, Curare is tasked with assassinating district attorney Sam Young, and is only narrowly foiled by Batman and Barbara Gordon's intervention. Targeted by the rest of the Society for her failure, Curare goes rogue, hunting down every member and erasing their minds, single-handedly destroying the Society before being defeated by Batman.

Why so serious?
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#47124: May 20th 2021 at 1:39:32 PM

[tdown]Rocket, as great a character he is.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#47125: May 20th 2021 at 1:39:52 PM

How would you feel about this quote?

I'm going up against Ra's al Ghul — the Demon's Head. The man has lived for over six hundred years, spurred on entirely by his quest to remake the world in his own image. I never know if I'm going to walk away from an encounter with him.
Batman on 'Ra's al Ghul, Batman: Dark Tomorrow


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