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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#47051: May 19th 2021 at 8:29:20 PM

I don't have any more right now that was more of a general statement. Though I will keep looking.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#47052: May 19th 2021 at 8:35:25 PM

[tup] Kingpin. RIP Miura, mangaka of Berserk.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#47054: May 19th 2021 at 8:41:40 PM

[tup] Kingpin, Ra’s, Maude and Customer Service.

Farewell, Miura-sensei.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#47057: May 19th 2021 at 8:53:23 PM

Yes to Kingpin if I didn't vote on him already.

My god. Rest in peace, Miura.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#47058: May 19th 2021 at 9:00:31 PM

Can't help but wonder if there's at least one MB in Berserk if only to pay some respect to the man.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#47059: May 19th 2021 at 9:00:40 PM

I'm due for a re-read anyways. If I can find an MB to tribute post all the better!

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#47060: May 19th 2021 at 9:01:40 PM

Berserk is such a brutal world I honestly don't have much hope though considering how many Warhammer MB's we have maybe.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#47061: May 19th 2021 at 9:04:36 PM

Since I forgot to earlier, [tup] Kingpin and Ra’s.

RIP Miura. I should check out Berserk sometime.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#47063: May 19th 2021 at 9:05:34 PM

[up][up][up]That comment makes no sense and honestly... I'm not in the mood for it.

Edited by 43110 on May 19th 2021 at 12:06:07 PM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#47064: May 19th 2021 at 9:07:42 PM

I can see how that was confusing the idea I had is that because of how dark the franchise is most characters would be over too much of a bastard line. Though I will admit I don't exactly know how these kinds of franchises are handled when it comes to this trope so I may be wrong.

[down] Alright.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on May 19th 2021 at 9:10:26 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#47065: May 19th 2021 at 9:08:35 PM

This conversation is ending for now.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#47066: May 19th 2021 at 9:11:26 PM

So, uh, has anybody claimed Army of the Dead? I saw it tonight and think I can make a strong argument for two characters.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#47067: May 19th 2021 at 9:12:53 PM

Like the third movie in the OG Evil Dead trilogy? It's been a long ass time but I'd love an MB (or two) from that!

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#47068: May 19th 2021 at 9:14:03 PM

Nah, it's a new zombie flick made by Zack Snyder. Should be on Netflix in two days or so.

Anywho, abstain from Maude, but yes to Kingpin. EDIT: Oh! And yes to Customer Service! Loved this guy.

Edited by DocSharp on May 19th 2021 at 9:15:11 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#47069: May 19th 2021 at 9:15:16 PM

[up][up] You're also thinking of Army of Darkness (though shout out to that movie)

[tup] Kingpin and CS

Edited by therealjackieboy on May 19th 2021 at 9:15:32 AM

It's Spooky Month!
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#47070: May 19th 2021 at 9:15:55 PM

Oh, forgot to vote on him [tup] Customer Service.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#47071: May 19th 2021 at 9:16:46 PM

Whoops my bad, I was indeed! Oh well, I'm don't think anyone's snagged yet HT!

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#47072: May 19th 2021 at 9:22:25 PM

My writeup:

The Big Lebowski: Maude Lebowski is the daughter of the Big Lebowski. When the Dude gets caught in a kidnapping scheme involving her fathers wife and takes a rug that is rightfully hers, she has two thugs knock him out and then tells him to come visit her. While there she tells him to visit a doctor, and when he eventually does, the doctor checks his virility. She later seduces him, and reveals she was simply using him to get a child from a man who would want nothing to do with her. In the meantime she even helps the Dude figure out that the Big Lebowski embezzled money and never intended on paying the ransom for the kidnapping. She ends the film triumphant with the narrator letting us know "a little Lebowski is on the way."

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#47073: May 19th 2021 at 11:50:33 PM

No to Maude.

Weak yes to Customer Service. I don't remember him being all that magnificent, but if you guys are sure...

Yes to another Ra's Al-Ghul and Kingpin.

RIP Miura. I got the news from a friend who is a huge fan of Berserk.

Edited by Klavice on May 19th 2021 at 11:51:48 AM

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#47074: May 20th 2021 at 1:42:15 AM

Oh god no. RIP Miura.

I shall also abstain on Maude. I didn't really care to say anything at the time, but since people were asking for more input, I might as well officially say as such.

...I think I need a little break. I'll read the CM thread and then just... I gotta clear my head with Miura passing.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#47075: May 20th 2021 at 1:48:32 AM

Now for one of my own from Kirby, to start my duo out...

Who is Yamikage? What makes him a candidate?

Yamikage is a ninja and former member of the Star Warriors. Years ago, Yamikage betrayed the Star Warriors and successfully fought against his once-partner Meta Knight, Yamikage allying with Nightmare enterprises afterwards and becoming one of its most successful "monsters."

When hired out by King Dedede to steal something for him, Yamikage initially refuses, stating he's no thief...until Dedede informs Yamikage it is a ninja scroll (it's not, actually, but Dedede being confused is a trend of this show [lol]), to which Yamikage agrees. Tracking down the scroll to the young ninja Benikage, Yamikage first tries to get the boy to hand over the scroll willingly, but when he refuses, Yamikage offers him straight-up ninja combat for the scroll.

Unsurprisingly, Yamikage kicks Benikage's ass up and down, using tricks like getting Benikage to stab a fence post to get his sword stuck to toy with him. Yamikage also immediately senses the presence of Meta Knight nearby, and flings a knife to stab Meta Knight's cape into a tree, halting his approach and letting him know he can't get the drop on the ninja.

Retrieving the scroll, Yamikage tries to kill Benikage, only for Kirby to step in and absorb one of Yamikage's throwing knives to become "Ninja Kirby." Dueling Kirby, Yamikage actually stays one step ahead in skills until Kirby uses teleportation to wound Yamikage. Simply proclaiming that they will meet again and he will have his revenge, Yamikage uses a smoke bomb to vanish into the nearby forest, last seen retreating while proclaiming that he will one day return for both Meta Knight and Kirby both.

.....which never happened despite there being 60+ episodes for it to. -_-

Is Yamikage magnificent?

In the way that only ninja focused on combat skills can be, yes. He successfully betrayed the Star Warriors and fought with Meta Knight atop a giant dragon years ago, became a successful Nightmare agent, toys with Benikage to throw him offguard, is unable to be caught by surprise by Meta Knight, and in a rare occurrence for a one-shot villain, not only keeps pace with Kirby, but ultimately escapes capture completely through trickery and swears to return one day for vengeance.

Is Yamikage a bastard?

Eeeeeyep, be it betraying the Star Warriors, allying with Nightmare, and trying to kill Benikage or Kirby himself, Yamikage is certainly a villain through and through!

Final Verdict?

Another solid ninja Keeper

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!

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