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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#44201: Apr 17th 2021 at 12:30:24 PM

I am gonna back Ravok here and I don't really understand why him flying away from an exploding mansion should be a mark against him, it would have been worse if they had shown the murder, hands down. Also I've watched the videos, his takeover seems to involve shooting lightning around while people run away and he wracks up a bodycount of exactly zero. Yes it's personal to go after loved ones but I'm reading he tries killing them by blowing them up with a sauce machine in a burger joint? I really can't see this as too awful. He's hammy and he's effective, the guy is Made of Evil and again, I've gotta cut some slack when being bad is all he can do, I think the counters make some good points but ultimately I'm not quite seeing the footing.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#44202: Apr 17th 2021 at 12:31:16 PM

With those arguments, [tup] to Dark Danny

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#44203: Apr 17th 2021 at 12:32:05 PM

I'll give a yea to Dark Danny. Dude's not striking me as nearly as bad as a fair few of the cartoon villains we have here.

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#44204: Apr 17th 2021 at 12:34:08 PM

Well I didn't necessarily get that vibe from the EP but I recall this being on the Ultimate Enemy page:

"Dark Danny didn't just kill his parents, he killed his sister, his friends, and his teacher... just to secure his own future."

That was back when we were cutting wicks a while back. Maybe this conflicts with something I've upvoted though.

And also just to clarify, I wasn't intending to be contrarian or anything Rav. I think you're a good guy and I like you, I just felt that off of the information I had that he had something of a petty streak. Clearly I was wrong and I'll amend to a tentative [tup]. Once again, sorry if that's how it came off.

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#44205: Apr 17th 2021 at 12:35:11 PM

[up] No he did do that. That was the entire reasoning.

I think my problem is less that he's blowing them up, I agree typical villainy, and more that he does it in such a way that they know they have minutes left to live. And if that was all he had, then yeah I'd probably be a keep but he has a myriad of other issues with him.

And again I feel it's Vlad's narration which really pushes it over "Something's my boy are better left unsaid" and given that we don't see Danny's death I really feel like the implication is that it was a gruesome one.

Edited by jjjj2 on Apr 17th 2021 at 3:35:54 PM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
SpaceProtagonist (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
#44206: Apr 17th 2021 at 12:36:07 PM

Excellent, it looks like the board approved my Henry Danger candidate — a sentence I never thought I'd say — so without further ado: My draft!

Rick Twitler is the founder of TwitFlash who eventually came to dislike how people were addicted to their screens, and regretted creating the company. Prior to his official debut, he hacked the Man Cave to gain access to the heroes' personal information, stole the World's Most Poisonous Cactus, and set up a series of events that would get the heroes exposed to some poisonous gases. In his official debut, he plays as a Trojan Prisoner to lure the heroes' to his factory so he could trap them. Vowing to steal the heroes' powers to create an indestructible computer virus with fast reflexes, he steals Kid Danger's fast reflexes and keeps the heroes busy by sends some goons to Henry's house to attack his family, giving him enough time to create his virus and shut the internet down. He later transforms himself into a living virus and tries to spread his disease to the heroes. Though he ends up losing his memories in the end, he was able to send out a video as a backup plan ahead of time with the blueprints of a superweapon to give to another villain, setting up the final arc of the series.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#44207: Apr 17th 2021 at 12:36:11 PM

@interests: No apologies necessary man, I just was curious of the mindset behind your vote is all, all is well smile

@Riley: Yeah like Argost legitimately talks about not remembering all his victims' screams lol that's considerably worse than anything Dark Danny says or does and Argost is pretty well agreed upon as a solid Keep hahab

Edited by Ravok on Apr 17th 2021 at 12:36:55 PM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#44208: Apr 17th 2021 at 12:37:16 PM

No worries interests, we all know you make arguments in good faith and are always ready to talk things out and debate smile

I'm not sure what was going on with his trope page, it could have been after people feeling he was a CM that started influencing how people wrote tropes about him and there might be some inaccuracies or things over-playing anything associated with his villainy to force itself under the "hat he was given," if you will.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#44209: Apr 17th 2021 at 12:42:55 PM

Weirdly his character page seems to Lean on him not having a choice either as well.

Which seems to clash with ultimate enemy's trope page. Lol.

Edited by miraculous on Apr 17th 2021 at 12:44:19 PM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#44212: Apr 17th 2021 at 1:03:57 PM

I'll admit I was skeptical when Ravok brought him up over in the CM thread, but he's managed to convince me. [tup] to DD.

What's funny is this isn't even the first time a fusion between two enemies has qualified for this in a Nickelodeon show. [lol]

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#44213: Apr 17th 2021 at 1:11:11 PM

Even Dark Danny couldn't face PlanKrab without blanching! [lol]

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#44214: Apr 17th 2021 at 1:12:19 PM

[up][up] "If I had a nickel for every time we voted up a fusion of two Nickelodeon adversaries, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice."

Yes to Double D.

Edited by DocSharp on Apr 17th 2021 at 1:13:23 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#44215: Apr 17th 2021 at 1:43:31 PM

I’m happy to give a [tup] to Dark Danny as well. A couple things were off based on what I remember, but everything else is totally correct though, so I’m definitely not gonna decry any of that.

Oh yeah, it is funny that we have both him and PlanKrab. Haha.

I definitely look forward to other Danny Phantom candidates as well.

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#44216: Apr 17th 2021 at 1:44:08 PM

I do think there was enough of a Pattern for his Crimes but I honeslty still don't think it's too bad for this. And his past in addition to the Agency stuff makes me Lean [tup] for Dark Danny

Eric Roberts epic potrayal definitely helps.(speaking of wich, with the recent set of Doctor Who candidates, anyone think his take on the Master would be worth looking into? I heard that version was Evil Is Hammy incarnate)

Bow to the Prototype
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#44217: Apr 17th 2021 at 2:03:21 PM

DD would have no chance. One handshake and PK has won! PlanKrab the god of MB!

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#44218: Apr 17th 2021 at 2:06:33 PM

Now you’ve got me imagining Hans Gruber dangling over the edge of the Nakatomi Plaza with PlanKrab standing over him smirking [lol]

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#44220: Apr 17th 2021 at 2:14:09 PM

[tup] to Rick Twitler, Lady Christina de Souza and Dark Danny (really looking forward to what others you find, that show had such a good collection of memorable antagonists).

Snoke: Eric Roberts Master? Have to admit I did not consider him. Indeed to my memory he is pretty charming in a hammy sort of way, quite cunning and comes very close to winning. Still the movie did have its share of issues. I might have to rewatch.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#44221: Apr 17th 2021 at 2:23:03 PM

Also I'll just note since I brought it up yesterday: Shikishima from the AoT movie doesn't count: he's a mash up between Levi, Reiner, Erwin and Zeke so him just being a worse knock off of Levi doesn't actually stand but he's also got some creepy tendencies towards Mikasa and at one point forces a kiss on her when she rejects her plans and proceeds to beat the shit out of her for slapping him away. WIE, for the most part Affably Evil and dies taking the resident CM with him but no getting past that!

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#44222: Apr 17th 2021 at 2:23:28 PM

Him and Paul Mc Gann Doctor are the best parts despite the iffy quality so she might be okay.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#44223: Apr 17th 2021 at 2:36:23 PM

Yes to Dark Dan (I feel like if he didn't have moral agency issues then he'd probably be a crossover but I digress).

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#44224: Apr 17th 2021 at 3:56:24 PM

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Apr 17th 2021 at 4:32:42 AM

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#44225: Apr 17th 2021 at 3:58:47 PM

[up] Wasn't the was that we overplayed his vileness initially?

Like, he really doesn't stand out in evil, we've established that.


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