TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#4376: Sep 10th 2018 at 9:35:26 AM

Char is not one I particularly feel like relitigating. Despite his issues, he is still an exemplary planner and charismatic leader who makes one of the biggest impacts on the saga.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#4377: Sep 10th 2018 at 10:59:21 AM

Is he a planner, though? I suppose you could make some argument for his killing of Garma (although the fact that he devotes his efforts to taking down a low-priority and strategically irrelevant target before abandoning his revenge against the people who he actually believes wronged him casts even that into question), but the rest of his career is marked by indecision, opportunism, and getting dragged into stuff he really doesn’t want to do (in particular, his biggest triumph as the leader of the AEUG, which is derailed by his own string of terrible decisions past and present).

I think the nature of his end in CCA sort of emphasises how hollow his legend really was - after he becomes the leader of one of the solar system’s two superpowers due to all other available candidates killing each other off, he immediately burned it down in a messy, costly war so he could relive his glory days and duke it out with his old rival. The fact that he spends his last moments ranting about his bizarre Oedipus complex while Amuro looks at him in utter bewilderment suggests to me that Tomino did not exactly want the audience to be left wowed by his brilliance - and, indeed, the Char Clones in later Gundam shows he penned do tend towards the ridiculous, monstrous, and pathetic. Even the one who comes off best, Harry Ord from Turn A Gundam, is a Comically Serious dandy whose bizarre fashion sense is a running gag, and who is contrasted with a lunatic, Gundam-obsessed Psychopathic Manchild in a red suit.

Edited by Iaculus on Sep 10th 2018 at 6:02:20 PM

What's precedent ever done for us?
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#4378: Sep 10th 2018 at 11:08:27 AM

I would argue yes. Char goes deep undercover with the Zabis and does set Garma up to his end, as well as ays the groundwork to take over Zeon and in Char's Deleted Affair, he does show a skill for manipulation and planning, with only the death of his pregnant lover souring him on Zeon. Even as of Z Gundam, Char is laying the groundwork for humanity's eventual expansion into space, and by CCA, while he does have a textbook of issues, he manipulates Quess and all of Zeon to his ends, and is really only undone at the end by Amuro inspiring all others to stop the colony drop.

I mean, we do have Rau le Creuset who is even more psychologically messed up than Char, and is one of the most obvious Char clones around. One could also make a case for Zechs Marquise (though I think he's overshadowed by Treize)

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#4379: Sep 10th 2018 at 11:09:46 AM

Btw, Iaculus as long as you're here, I was considering several from Ghost in the Shell, namely Hideo Kuze. Any thoughts?

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#4380: Sep 10th 2018 at 12:36:29 PM

Kuze is a good pick, assuming he meets the ‘bastard’ criterion - he’s very sympathetic. I’d certainly argue that the ambiguity of his death helps raise him above simply being Gohda’s Unwitting Pawn.

My issue with Char is that I’m not all that sure that the Axis drop is the culmination of a brilliant master-plan rather than an expression of frustration and despair after the AEUG project crumbles. Giving Amuro the psycoframe data suggests that picking a fight with his frienemy is more important than his plan’s success, his talk about humanity's destiny gives way to yelling about his bizarre mommy issues and how they’re all Amuro’s fault, and he only gets as far as he does because the Federation is presented as utterly supine and uncaring. He’s smart and manipulative, but doesn’t seem like enough of a big-picture guy for this trope - after leaving his AEUG support network, his motives become a lot more selfish and petty, and he throws away his considerable and largely unearned advantages for minimal gain.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#4381: Sep 10th 2018 at 12:47:07 PM

Like I said, I do admit Char has his massive issues, but I think his planning, charisma and ultimate dynamic drive to change things helps take him out of that, much like we have Rau who is a massive bundle of insane issues to the end.

Also, remind me, how about the Laughing Man?

Eddy1215 Since: May, 2010
#4382: Sep 10th 2018 at 3:10:41 PM

Guys, I want to protest the trimming that the description page got. Now it seems too short. I don't know who it was that proposed this change, but they should reconsider. The page looks terrible now. I don't know if anyone will even want to look at it now, especially me.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#4383: Sep 10th 2018 at 3:23:43 PM

Eddy, dial it back, man. We talked this over in the trope repair shop you also also partipated in. What do you want to see added?

Eddy1215 Since: May, 2010
#4384: Sep 10th 2018 at 4:05:08 PM

Well, I'm just saying it could do with some more text following the qualifications for an MB. And I don't see why someone decided to rip out the comparisons at the end of it.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#4385: Sep 10th 2018 at 4:23:34 PM

Trope repair shop, which, again, you did come by to comment in, determined the definition was needlessly lengthy and as such it was cut to what actually mattered about the trope. Help me understand exactly what you want to see added back and lemme ask the thread in general, do the rest of us feel anything else is actually needed there?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#4386: Sep 10th 2018 at 4:36:20 PM

Just saw I missed Silver from Treasure Planet. I've given my thoughts on him before. No to him.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#4387: Sep 10th 2018 at 6:31:17 PM

@Scraggle you watched the Boondocks to right? If so, what's your opinion on Rollo Goodlove.?I know I've already got him approved but I just want to hear your opinion out of curiosity since you haven't been here for a while.

Edited by G-Editor on Sep 10th 2018 at 3:34:42 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#4390: Sep 11th 2018 at 1:10:07 AM

Hey, all, just popping in to say I've had a death in the family, so I'm probably not gonna be around for a bit..... I luckily already had completed most of my pending write-ups, so....here they are.

  • Batman: Arkham Series: Ra's Al Ghul is the "Demon's Head" and leader of the League of Assassins. A centuries-old warlord who got his start buying Gotham City and restructuring it into the criminal-murdering "utopia" Wonder City, Ra's found and used the healing properties of the Lazarus Pit to sustain his life over the years, amassing countless resources and soldiers to his League in the process. In the present, Ra's pulls strings to begin his ideas for a mass-genocide of those he deems "unworthy" to live in his planned perfect world, and finds a concrete scheme when approached by the monstrous Hugo Strange. Fully backing Strange's plan to build a super prison called Arkham City that functions as a nightmarish concentration camp to hold thousands of prisoners until they are all wiped out, Ra's continuously tries to convince Batman to join his crusade, even betraying and murdering Strange due to a preference for Batman as his potential heir. If allowed to die in his final appearance, Ra's uses his last words to proclaim how proud he is of Batman for taking steps towards doing what is 'necessary,' and throughout the franchise holds the utmost respect for the hero no matter what animosity comes between them.

  • The Spectacular Spider-Man: Green Goblin, Norman Osborn, is the ultimate villain that Spider-Man faces throughout the series. The mastermind behind many of the series' villains, Goblin consistently stays one step ahead of Spidey throughout the series, faking injuries and even death, unleashing various villains and criminals onto him as distractions, and framing his own son as the Goblin all to throw the hero off his scent. Outsmarting all the biggest crime bosses in New York in a fell swoop of manipulation to kickstart a gang war, Goblin moves in and takes control of the city's criminal element before using all his resources in a grand, final attempt at wiping Spider-Man off the map to leave the city for his rule. In his public guise, Osborn builds Oscorp Industries from the ground up, making it into a world-renowned organization, hires Chameleon to masquerade as him to avoid suspicion, and slowly tries to mold his son Harry into becoming a cruel monster like himself. At times a psychopathic, Laughing Mad supervillain, and at others a cold, ruthless businessman, Green Goblin was the most personal and most diabolical villain Spider-Man ever faced, standing in stark contrast to Tombstone's professional brilliance with his own brand of psychotic ingenuity and charm.

  • Daredevil: Under Kevin Smith's pen in the story arc Guardian Devil, Quentin Beck, aka Mysterio, is presented as a genius, theatrical puppet master seeking to cement himself in history as a "legitimate" supervillain after a career of being nothing more than a B-lister. Upon being diagnosed with cancer, Mysterio makes it his mission to drive the hero Daredevil to insanity, playing on the man's religious faith by using a combination of manipulation, diguises, and hallucinogenic drugs to make him believe a baby under his care is the Antichrist and needs to be killed. Convincing Daredevil's lover Karen Page she has AIDS, framing his best friend Foggy Nelson for murder, and hiring Bullseye to kidnap the baby and kill anyone in his path (leading to Page's death in Daredevil's arms), Mysterio locks the child in a chamber that will soon suffocate her if Daredevil doesn't go along with the villain's devised 'final act' of his grand plan. In the end, upon realizing he hasn't broken Daredevil, Mysterio gives him the baby back and proceeds to blow his own brains out in a final act of defiance towards both the hero and his own cancer, refusing to be taken down by anyone but his own hand. Despite his otherwise goofy or ineffectual outings, Mysterio here is a brilliant strategist, excellent manipulator, and holds all the charm that a Large Ham skilled in film and theater would possess.

Edited by Ravok on Sep 11th 2018 at 4:12:54 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#4391: Sep 11th 2018 at 1:15:28 AM

Yeesh... I hope he/she rest in peace up there and hope you will get better soon Ravok.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#4392: Sep 11th 2018 at 1:55:35 AM

Sorry to here that Ravok. I give my condolences.

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#4393: Sep 11th 2018 at 1:56:58 AM

condolences ravok

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#4394: Sep 11th 2018 at 9:36:24 AM

My sympathies to you and your family, Ravok. Sent you a PM with some more extended thoughts.

MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#4395: Sep 11th 2018 at 10:58:03 AM

Busting a move here, if no one's going to talk about the Koimoku example, I'm cutting it.

Edited by MasterJoseph on Sep 11th 2018 at 11:02:56 AM

IPP Wick Check created.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#4396: Sep 11th 2018 at 11:28:44 AM

Condolences, chief.

I haven’t watched GITS:SAC S1 in a while, but the Laughing Man, the little autistic boy who managed to reshape a government, was quite impressive. The only question is how much the power-players of S2 overshadow him by, because that’s a bit of a problem for S1 in general.

On Char, my problem is that I’m not entirely convinced of his vision and drive. His involvement in the AEUG’s post-Zeonism was reluctant and very much driven by the people around him, and CCA repeatedly casts doubt on the idea that he’s acting with a plan or higher purpose after leaving his old friends behind. Rau might have been crazy, but he was acting towards a single goal with a single purpose throughout the series and managed impressive success despite being a total underdog. He’s a true Visionary Villain, even if his vision is of a solar system on fire. Char, on the other hand, keeps getting handed chances to change the world because of his family connections and personal reputation before pissing them away with his petty, short-sighted decisions. It’s by other writers, so it’s not exactly evidence, but I did think that the central, dark joke of the Char Clone in Iron-Blooded Orphans strikes close to home - he’s basically a traumatised eight-year-old who never grew up, but because he’s outwardly a handsome, charming combat prodigy, far too many people place far too much trust in him, ignore the red flags, and end up getting let down in the messiest ways possible.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#4397: Sep 11th 2018 at 11:38:35 AM

Well, there's a reason I said McGillis doesn't count. But I don't consider Char close to the same character, because at the end, Char does just that. His goal is pretty clear: to get people into space and to abandon the earth, while satisfying his father's ideals. He's also far less insane and damaged about it than Rau.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#4398: Sep 11th 2018 at 12:53:07 PM

It’s really questionable that that’s his plan, though, as I’ve pointed out a couple of times already. Giving a weapon to his enemy and his final Motive Rant suggest that any sort of post-Zeonist population transfer was strictly secondary to his real motives, and the fact that he was able to come so close to winning seems less like a testament to his own talent and more like a testament to the lack of shits given by his theoretical opposition. Remember, he bought Axis from the Federation after he’d already pulled off another, smaller Colony Drop, only got a proper fight because Londo Bell, the Federation’s elite peacekeeping force, staged a mutiny after the Federation asked them not to intervene. Is it really tactical brilliance if you pick a fight with a guy, only for his boss to try to hand you his office?

What's precedent ever done for us?
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#4399: Sep 11th 2018 at 12:59:35 PM

He also intends to settle his score with Amuro, I would say.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#4400: Sep 11th 2018 at 1:55:21 PM

Hey, Ravok, take all the time you need.

I wish I could do more.


Total posts: 82,595
Top