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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#43626: Apr 10th 2021 at 6:40:37 PM

I think we still do have more than enough. It was 18 downvotes. Kinda hard to overcome, but yes I would appreciate an update on the count.

[down] Yeah I know I don't think enough people switched from there to overcome that deficit.

Edited by jjjj2 on Apr 10th 2021 at 9:45:35 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#43627: Apr 10th 2021 at 6:44:08 PM

That list is out of date, hence why I’m asking.

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#43628: Apr 10th 2021 at 6:45:11 PM

Count me in on the Abstain Train for Vicious, i have no clue what's going on TBH.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#43629: Apr 10th 2021 at 6:48:45 PM

I'll update my count once I'm done with a test I'm taking - I'll also try to find the original proposal and count those votes from back then.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#43630: Apr 10th 2021 at 6:50:26 PM

Since I’ve seen everything with him (I’m currently on the beginning of Season 4), I actually can vote on him now: I absolutely say [tup] to Rothstein.

@Space Sorry for your loss.

@Bull Go right ahead on both accounts.

My friend and I are finally seeing each other again next Saturday after more than a year. Very happy about that.

What’s the current tally on Lardass?

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 10th 2021 at 6:53:09 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#43631: Apr 10th 2021 at 7:20:21 PM

[tup] to Rothstein.

[tdown] to Camelia and Justine

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#43632: Apr 10th 2021 at 7:20:46 PM

Anyone think someone who deliberately endangers part of her museum in order to catch a culprit who framed her father figure is bastardly enough? (The culprit in question barely recovers and she almost has innocents killed by mistake. I believe her character page at one point listed her as a MB (which I removed for using a YMMV tag at the time) but I feel she might have a shot. Any thoughts? It's Katherine Hall from the same game as Justine.

Sorry about your mum, Space.

Edited by Klavice on Apr 10th 2021 at 7:21:18 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#43633: Apr 10th 2021 at 7:32:59 PM

Okay, updating my previous vote count on Vicious, only counting the most recent cut proposal:

9 Keepnote 

10 Abstainnote 

14 Cutnote 

After a lot of consideration, I'm gonna say keep to Vicious. It sounds like the worst of his actions rely on ACI to truly deem them disqualifying.

Give me just a few moments and I'll find the original proposal for a full count.

Okay, found 43's original EP. Surprisingly enough, the vote list is pretty much entirely made up of people who are still regulars; here's the count from back then:

16 Yesnote 

1 Abstainnote 

3 Nonote 

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Apr 11th 2021 at 11:45:29 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#43634: Apr 10th 2021 at 7:33:01 PM

[tdown] to Courtney

I wish I could give a more definitive stand on vicious given that I know abstains aren't helpful, but I feel like I can't offer anything beyond an abstain with my knowledge of the canon

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#43635: Apr 10th 2021 at 7:47:09 PM

'No' to Courtney but 'Yes' to Rothstein

Yeah look I don't wanna drag out this debate longer than is necessary but let's be honest—I came in quite late with my counterarguments after several people had already voted, and many of said people haven't chimed in any more words on whether they still lean towards cut or want to change to abstain/Keep. I'm not saying everyone has to do this ofc nor that it's going to make a difference, but I would like more than 2 or 3 of those initial people who voted to acknowledge the counterarguments I made and state if their stances are still the same. That's all I ask.

Edited by Ravok on Apr 10th 2021 at 7:49:35 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#43636: Apr 10th 2021 at 7:51:52 PM

I quite concur with Ravok...he made good arguments and I don't want to see it just buried.

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#43637: Apr 10th 2021 at 7:56:50 PM

Work

3:10 to Yuma (1957)' is a classic Black and White western about a Determined Homesteader who accepts a reward form a stage lien to escort a charismatic outlaw to a prison train.

Who is Ben Wade?

Ben Wade is the outlaw being taken to catch the eponymous train. The version of him in the arguably more iconic 2007 remake starring Creator/Russell Crowe already has a magnificent bastard page for that movie, and I think that this original version of him deserves the same honor even if he may be just a little less magnificent.

Magnificent

Ben is a soft-spoken man. He's Nice to the Waiter while in a saloon. He doesn't seem to mind being blackmailed. He tells the authorities in a town about the sagecoach robbery (while neglecting to mention he and his men are the robbers) so they can go pick people up. He's fairly calm and collected after being arrested. He's Crazy-Prepared and has a pre-arranged plan for his men to scout out any surrounding towns whenever one of them is arrested so that they'll know wherever the law sends them. He uses a lot of Deadpan Snarker jokes, bribe offers and nerve-fraying threats to try and break the will of his guard Dan Evans (that would be the thinking on his feet part) but respects the mans incorruptibility enough that he ultimately ruins his own gang's efforts to rescue him and kill Dan. At the end he takes being taken to Yuma Prison clammy, simply stating he's broken out before and can probably do it again.

Bastard

He shoots one of his own men when the guy's used as a Human Shield by stagecoach driver Bill Moons and then shoots Bill (something he shows no remorse for killgi Bill later on when he's made to watch Bill's funeral procession, where Bill's mother and brother are present). He has no faith in the goodness of people and correctly predicts how many of Dan's fellow guards will quit out of fear. He's fairly unaffected when Alex, another likable member of the posse, if brutally killed by Ben's men.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#43638: Apr 10th 2021 at 8:00:13 PM

Earnestly I've found Ravok has had the single most intelligent arguments on the character both here and on CM and he's been more drowned out than I've cared to have seen happen to someone who's put so much time and thought into what he's said. Very much seconding his request that people do a good faith read-through and indicate if it changed their mind or not. I'll repeat this character's standing in both tropes pretty well contradict one another and we need to get this sorted.

Classic Ben Wade sounds like a yea Melinda!

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#43640: Apr 10th 2021 at 8:03:04 PM

[tup] Ben Wade.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#43641: Apr 10th 2021 at 8:03:13 PM

Still leaning Keep personally....It sounds like while his actions are indeed personal enough to warrant him being on CM, if barely, they don't veer into 'Disgusting' territory, a bit like Thailog(Even if his personal stuff wasn't enough to save him for the other trope in the end) And for charm, while the execution is questionable, it sounds like the tone and writer themselves sell him as a suave badass instead of just a Creepy sicko atleast. And from both what was said and my own research it sounds like him betraying the Van and taking over is played as 'Slimy Big Bad Wannabe types are outdone by way cooler villain' instead of being meant to show him as a Violence obsessed Psycho.

@Space

Deeply sorry for your loss.

Edited by Snoketrope on Apr 10th 2021 at 8:03:59 AM

Bow to the Prototype
227someguy I hate spoilers Since: Apr, 2017
I hate spoilers
#43642: Apr 10th 2021 at 8:10:34 PM

I didn't realize an EP could be so small, as long as they get the point across. That said, a bigger EP can get the said point across more easily.

Edited by 227someguy on Apr 10th 2021 at 11:10:54 AM

Everyone look at my sandbox
Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#43643: Apr 10th 2021 at 8:14:42 PM

My condolences as well.

Also, another Ben Wade fact is part of the reason Ben saves Dan's ;fie is out of gratitude that Ben said his life.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#43644: Apr 10th 2021 at 8:19:44 PM

I am keeping my [tdown] on Vicious good arguments from Ravok but he just seems to awful and petty.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43645: Apr 10th 2021 at 8:47:45 PM

[tup] Vicious per Revok's arguments, Pao, Rothstein and Wade

[tdown] Lardass, Carnelia and Courtney

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#43646: Apr 10th 2021 at 9:41:07 PM

You know what upon reading Ravok’s argument and my own memories of the show I’m voting to keep Vicious. Guy may be a monstrous prick, but he’s a badass and smart monstrous prick and I don’t remember anything Vicious does to be too deplorable

Edited by G-Editor on Apr 10th 2021 at 12:41:53 PM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#43647: Apr 10th 2021 at 9:54:07 PM

Keep Vicious per Ravok's arguments.

I sadly have a foggy memory of Cowboy Bebop (I watched it in High school, but it's been 12 years since then) so I'm just going by Ravok's insight. I trust him wholeheartedly.) Yes to Wade too.

I would like some genuine insight on effortposting Katherine Hall from Ace Attorney Investigations 2 though. Is nearly poisoning an Asshole Victim (read: murderer who got away with it and framed her father figure) dickish enough? Or does she need to actually succeed in a murder of an innocent? I mean about two innocent people nearly inhaled the poisonous gas from memory (Gumshoe and Larry Butz) but both survived. She was listed as an MB before we cracked down on the trope and is more morally grey than Courtney.

Edited by Klavice on Apr 11th 2021 at 12:28:05 PM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#43648: Apr 10th 2021 at 11:35:53 PM

Yes to Ben Wade. Switching to abstain on Vicious. I really don't know the work well enough, and both sides make good points.

Also I am leaving for my vacation right now. See you guys in a few weeks.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#43649: Apr 11th 2021 at 3:51:01 AM

I’ve noticed there’s quite a lack of MBs EPed for Doctor Who. Surely there must be more than three? So with that, time to EP one of my favorite Doctor Who villains. Angel Bob from "The Time of Angels" and "Flesh and Stone".

Premise

Doctor Who centers around everyone's favorite Time Lord, The Doctor and his adventures through space and time. This story takes place during the tenure of the Eleventh Doctor, Matt Smith, specifically Amy Pond era's "Pandorica" arc.

Who is Angel Bob and what has he done?

Around the time of the 47th century, the Weeping Angels invaded the Aplan homeworld and hunted their race to extinction. But left without a source of food, the angels all weakened and starved, going into hibernation. One angel (later named Angel Bob) who was spared this fate, plotted to rejuvenate its kin. Feigning dormancy and posing as a harmless statue, the angel waited to get passed between ownership, until it finally arrived onboard a ship with a temporal core, the Byzantium. Able to use the temporal core as a food source, the angel caused the ship to crash on the Aplan homeworld.

The Doctor, Amy, River Song, and a team of Church Militants arrive to investigate the crash site, aware of the presence of a Weeping Angel. The Doctor learns from River that the Weeping Angels have the ability to reproduce via images of themselves, and realizes too late that Amy has been left on her own with video footage of the angel in question. Said video footage of the angel comes to life and attempts to come out of the TV screen, while also locking the doors so the Doctor can't come inside. Amy manages to turn off the TV screen using one frame where the Angel isn't on the tape, but she makes the mistake of looking into the angel's eye, imprinting itself onto her visual cortex, allowing the angel to influence and manipulate her mind as well as eventually kill her. Escaping from the Byzantium, the angel goes into the labyrinth where its kin are still being restored. When the church militants go to investigate, said angel hunts them down one by one by snapping their necks, then reanimates their consciousness in order to speak in order to further lure others over. It eventually kills a cleric named Bob and becomes attached to using his voice, earning the nickname "Angel Bob" from the Doctor. The Doctor discovers that all of the statues in the catacombs are in fact Weeping Angels, and their deformed appearance was due to starvation, but they were slowly being restored thanks to the crashed ship.

When the Doctor tries to contact Bob via radio, Angel Bob at first pretends to be Bob for a while, before alluding to how Bob also got killed by an angel. In a bid to make the Doctor angry, Angel Bob taunts the Doctor by telling him Bob died scared and his death wasn't painless. With all angels now restored they slowly close in on the heroes, until the Doctor manages to get them all into the Byzantium. Angel Bob uses his connection with Amy to play mindgames, including making her countdown to when the angel within her completely takes over. The angels are amused that the Doctor is unaware of the presence of a crack in space-time, which they intend to feed off, but the Doctor tells them they cannot feed off pure time energy. In the confusion, the Doctor manages to escape the angels and run off.

Eventually, the angels discover the Doctor is correct and attempt to escape the crack in time too. Angel Bob and the angels meet up with the Doctor and co. Both the Doctor and the Angels know to seal up the crack, it would require a complex space-time event thrown in, such as the Doctor himself. Angel Bob attempts to appeal to the Doctor and asks him to sacrifice himself in this way, as it would save their friends. River Song attempts to offer herself, but the Doctor scoffs saying she wasn't paradoxical enough and it would take all of the angels to equal him. This ends up being a clue to the Doctor's plan, as the angels presence were draining the ship's energy, including the gravity. With the gravity gone, they all get sucked into the crack and causes it to seal up.

Charming? Charismatic? Magnificent?

Angel Bob is always incredibly polite to the Doctor, even when he is taunting him. It appears he does indeed have genuine respect for the Doctor to a degree. He is very cunning, formulating a plan to help revive his brethren and was patient enough to wait for generations for an opportunity. He shows himself to be quite manipulative too. Rather than hunt each of the clerics, he would simply capture one and use their voices to lure the others in. He was even able to fool the Doctor into thinking he was the real Bob. He was also charismatic enough in appealing to the Doctor to sacrifice himself that River was actually convinced and tried to take his place. His initial goal to revive his kin is successful, while his eventual defeat was due to an out of left field revelation that he could not have anticipated, and even then was more the fault of the rest of the angels rather than himself.

Now while he does display a small degree of sadism in how he taunts the Doctor and Amy, I would argue even this wasn’t an unnecessary action as it worked effectively to demoralise the heroes who were constantly trying to run from the angels.

Too much of a bastard?

Doctor Who heinous standards are through the roof, with many villains having attempted wiping out life over the universe or at the very least a planet. Angel Bob comparatively has a much smaller body count and overall a very sympathetic motive of trying to save his kin.

The most heinous thing he ever does is playing mindgames with Amy, which could be considered a tame form of Mind Rape. But even then that’s more a standard feature of his species biology rather than going out of his way to be cruel.

Final verdict?

I think has enough cunning and charisma to balance things out. [tup]

Edited by Snowy66 on Apr 11th 2021 at 9:47:40 AM

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love

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