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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#42503: Mar 28th 2021 at 5:46:04 PM

[tup] Sweet, how many Buffyverse keepers does that make?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#42504: Mar 28th 2021 at 5:46:57 PM

4 with this one (Mayor Wilkins, Holtz , Moloch and Sweet).

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#42505: Mar 28th 2021 at 5:52:42 PM

And I’ve got one more EP coming soon

And I’m only done with season one of the binge - between these and mir’s candidates I’m very excited for the future.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#42506: Mar 28th 2021 at 6:06:04 PM

Yes to Sweet. Here's Michael J. Fox's writeup.

Curb Your Enthusiasm: Michael J. Fox was Larry's neighbor upstairs during the episode Larry vs Michael J. Fox. Despite escalating a conflict with Larry including purposefully shaking up a soda he gives to Larry, while excusing it through Parkinsons, Michael actually has standards, shown when Larry David continues to escalate the conflict further and was willing to turn the other cheek until Larry drew a Hitler stache on his father-in-law. Then, he turned an entire charity organization against Larry, and nearly got him run out of town. Cunning, and able to use his disability to get the things he want, forcing Larry to donate to a Parkinsons charity, Michael J. Fox was one of the most cunning adversaries Larry David had faced.

Edited by Klavice on Mar 28th 2021 at 6:07:06 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#42507: Mar 28th 2021 at 6:09:57 PM

I also might have another Michael j Fox keepr for you guys eventually.

Just need to rewatch

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#42508: Mar 28th 2021 at 6:28:39 PM

Marty McFly? You son of a bitch, I knew it!

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#42509: Mar 28th 2021 at 6:33:27 PM

Reading the Law Abiding Citizen script opened my eyes to the fact that Clyde Shelton really does not qualify as a MB, I talked this over with my friend and he agreed.

The guy is absolutely brutal killing Darby in the most horrifying excessive way imaginable (if you want a refresher he paralyzes him chops off his limbs and leaves him to die a slow agonizing death, and then filmed his death and sent it to a lawyer, and a child even sees it) as well as the man that was framed by Darby who tried to stop the horrible crimes done to his wife and daughter and not only that he was also already condemned to die and Clyde just made his death more slow and painful for no good reason. He also mixes these two deaths with a heavy dose of sadism as he enjoys both of them suffering in their deaths, I get that both are Asshole Victims especially Darby but this just feels too much.

And by the end, he turns into a madman who murders a bunch of people who wronged him in no way or are completely innocent all for his rage against the legal system. Many of the people he kills were just completely regular people who were going their job. And ultimately he just turns into an angry Roaring Rampage of Revenge person who murders people on a whim out of anger, which I would say loses him much of his magnificence as at this point he is just a very angry man.

I do understand that Clyde is a sympathetic character and his rage against the legal system is understandable due to what Darby did to him. But ultimately there is a limit and Clyde is way too brutal with his killings being far too excessive and unjustified for it to be understandable. Even if Darby is an absolutely vile and horrible man he did not need to go that far in his murder of Darby and only did it out of extreme revenge and sadism.

The scene of him torturing Darby made me sick, not the scene of a Magnificent Bastard but a very brutal vigilante.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Mar 28th 2021 at 6:40:34 AM

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#42510: Mar 28th 2021 at 6:36:02 PM

[up]... Hoo boy, imma tap out for a bit before this gets ugly. Discussions involving this flick can get... ugly, to say the least.

Late [tup] to Micheal J. Fox, BTW (Never thought I'd say that).

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Mar 28th 2021 at 6:38:47 AM

Looperreallyreallyrocks Since: Jun, 2018
#42511: Mar 28th 2021 at 6:40:19 PM

Whoa wait a minute, Michael J. Fox is now an MB? This is heavy...

Anyways, leaning [tdown] to Clyde.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#42512: Mar 28th 2021 at 6:45:52 PM

I am gonna say that I think Clyde keeps but I'm not inclined to yell while doing so. Darby is a sadistic Complete Monster, you can enjoy killing him, just like Alyssa did with Christabella or Charlotte did with Anton. The former merrily danced in her victim's blood and the latter left hers limbless (and according to a totally unnecessary Word of God, dickless) but Pay Evil unto Evil is in full effect and I think we've elected Darby's crimes net him a spot on the trope for worst fictional characters enough times to claim that to most audience members are going to be likely to say "That's too awful" Darby has gone beyond the pale.

As for the rest of your points, I get it, I don't love the film and Scraggle will likewise happily and honestly tell you he finds it very mean-spirited. That being said, we're not gonna love every MB and while Clyde's retribution definitely gets disproportionate, I don't think it truly tests limits. He's got a goal he's trying to prove and he's way classier about it than someone like Jigsaw, who's also listed. I definitely don't hold a lot of love for either character nor their films but I do think they meet the qualifications.

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#42513: Mar 28th 2021 at 6:50:05 PM

As somebody who thought LAC was an okay flick (no masterpiece or anything), I'm not holding Clyde's sadism for Darby against him in any way whatsoever to be honest.

Gonna say keep Clyde Shelton.

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#42514: Mar 28th 2021 at 6:52:21 PM

Keep Clyde.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#42515: Mar 28th 2021 at 6:52:31 PM

The sadism was not even my main argument it feels that you are cherry-picking that to make my argument seem worse than it is. My main problem is in the second half of the film he turns into little more than just a very angry whiny man who murders a bunch of innocent people for no good reason, also all of the other people were murdered out of sadism as well not just Darby. I found him completely devoid of any charm whatsoever and started to absolutely despise him by the end.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#42516: Mar 28th 2021 at 6:53:06 PM

Darby raped and murdered Clyde's daughter, and the guy who tried to "stop" it raised not a single finger to Darby to do so. Just "Hey, man, stop. Oh, you won't? Okay, carry on."

I don't mind at all what Clyde did to them As for the rest? Well, it's not a well written film, but while Clyde may be lashing out, the tragic end, Butler's performance and his skill and plotting make me say yes

Edited by Lightysnake on Mar 28th 2021 at 6:54:12 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#42517: Mar 28th 2021 at 6:55:20 PM

Yeah, with the "You're cherry picking to make my argument look weaker" I think Imma bow out...

Also I actually did acknowledge the rest of your points so I'm not really sure what this is about in the first place.

Edited by 43110 on Mar 28th 2021 at 9:58:19 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#42519: Mar 28th 2021 at 6:57:29 PM

When it comes to Jigsaw I would oppose him being an MB as well since the guy is one of the most brutal murderers in movie history.

I don't care how good a planner and skillful or how good the actor is he is murdering tons of innocent people and turning into a violent angry madman means I can't say he qualifies.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Mar 28th 2021 at 6:59:32 AM

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#42520: Mar 28th 2021 at 7:02:30 PM

Uhh... assuming you're talking to me about cherry picking arguments, I'm not. I'm not engaged in a conspiracy to make your arguments look weaker, I simply don't agree with that argument.

I also don't see how he's "angry whiny man" for being angry at the system that allowed Darby to escape justice.

As much as his action were harsh, Clyde clearly wasn't acting without purpose. He had a goal, to strike back at the system that allowed Darby to walk free and that's why he does what he does.

I want to dispell any notions of hostility, I'm just saying that I'm not cherry picking your arguments to make them look weaker.

[up][up][up] I think he's talking to me.

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#42521: Mar 28th 2021 at 7:04:09 PM

Yeah, I was talking to him, not you 43.

[up] Yes he does have a goal but his actions go far beyond that goal when he starts killing innocent people who are just doing their job.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#42522: Mar 28th 2021 at 7:04:20 PM

This isn't magnificent nice guy which is something some people seem to forget sometimes....

[up]And. That describes Lots of villains listed.

Edited by miraculous on Mar 28th 2021 at 7:06:48 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#42523: Mar 28th 2021 at 7:05:26 PM

Clyde is a villain, but he still acts with purpose.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#42524: Mar 28th 2021 at 7:06:37 PM

Ah, well in that case there's no need to talk to interests like that, he is as he pointed out engaged and wanting to discuss this with you. You think Clyde is too angry to count but it hasn't gone into territory where it's become an "objective" disqualifier, he is quite capable of formulating his plans with the calm and clarity he needs, everything is done in the name of both avenging himself and demanding a call for action for the legal system. I'm troubled to defend it as I really don't like the film as I've said but I don't think it's so badly written all of Clyde's planning, vision, the charm on Butler's part as the actor and he quiet acceptance of defeat in the end push him on to keeping territory.

Edited by 43110 on Mar 28th 2021 at 10:07:24 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#42525: Mar 28th 2021 at 7:06:53 PM

He stopped acting with purpose when he murdered tons of innocent people at that point he is only murdering out of personal annoyance rather than any reasonable reasons as well as doing them out of sadism.


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