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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#42277: Mar 26th 2021 at 6:32:37 PM

I've got my first Buffy EP down the pipeline, so we've got that to look forward to.

[tup] to Hubert.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#42280: Mar 26th 2021 at 8:00:34 PM

Wooow, yeah, we overlooked Hubert badly. Great proposal! "Yea" there.

As for Claude, I'm... on the fence about him. I thought of proposing him, but I'm starting to think he's not enough of bastard and veers more toward a Guile Hero. I guess that what happens when you're "least" morally grey of the Lord.

Yuri seems to be what Claude was supposed to be though, but I haven't played nor looked at the Ashen Wolves DLC.

227someguy I hate spoilers Since: Apr, 2017
I hate spoilers
#42281: Mar 26th 2021 at 8:14:36 PM

@Klavice While I agree that the Church leaders don't qualify, being "too evil" has nothing to do with it. Seteth is a Reasonable Authority Figure, but doesn't scheme enough to be one. Most of Rhea's plans are either offscreen or only heard about in passing, so she's a no-go. The moment that would've disqualified her only happens in one route, and in another, she can become The Atoner.

Everyone look at my sandbox
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#42282: Mar 26th 2021 at 9:19:31 PM

Sure to Hubert

So I finally got off my lazy ass and finished my Paper Mario EP

What's the Work?

Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door is the 2nd paper mario game where mario has to go on a big journey to save Princess Peach from aliens called the X-Nauts, almost none of this is important to my candidate, the Badge Ninja Ms. Mowz

Who is Ms. Mowz and what does she do?

Ms. Mowz is a squeek (mouse person) who specializes in stealing badges from heavily guarded locations and then selling them at her Lovely Howz of Badges. She is first seen in the dragon Hooktail's castle where she steals a valuable badge from the store room and escapes, but not before stealing a kiss from Mario and giving him some advice on how to defeat the dragon. Later she is seen robbing the Great Tree in Boggly Woods, even knocking out an X-Naut and wishing Mario luck in defeating the aliens. She is next seen inside of the Glitz Pit, a fighting arena, where she has just finished robbing a storage room, warning Mario to be careful and that the Pit is more dangerous than it seems.

After this Ms. Mowz makes a mysterious post in the Trouble Center asking for help and if Mario looks into it, she meets him in person outside of her store. She says that there is another Badge hidden in Hooktail Castle in the room where the dragon was fought but that she can't find it because it must be uncovered with "the power of wind." Mario, using the powers of his friend Flurry, is able to get the Badge and gives it to Ms. Mowz who reveals that she planted the Badge there as a test for Mario's skills and decides to become a party member, using her skills to sniff out items and steal items from enemies.

Is she magnificent

Absolutely, she's flirty and extremely affable towards Mario, giving him a kiss every time they meet. She's also shown to be pretty skilled at thieving judging by where she's found, with Hooktail castle being filled with traps, The Great Tree being under X-Naut occupation, and Glitz Pit having heavy security. He tricking Mario is mostly just a cherry on top of everything else but she is able to hide a chest in the deepest part of the castle under a nearly impossible to remove piece of paper.

Is she a bastard

This is the only possible issue with her but I think she's bad enough, Hooktail Castle is a mostly unoccupied castle that is owned by an evil dragon but the Great Tree and Glitz Pit are actual occupied locations which means that her thieving is actual thievery and not just treasure hunting. On top of this, she has dozens of Badges in her shop indicating that she's been very busy with her stealing. She also tricks Mario into going back to Hooktail Castle which is filled with dangerous enemies and traps.

Conclusion

I'm leaning yes but I'm a bit unsure on the bastard part.

Edited by papyru30 on Mar 26th 2021 at 10:19:42 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#42283: Mar 26th 2021 at 9:48:08 PM

For the series I'm good for her.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#42287: Mar 26th 2021 at 10:02:24 PM

[tup] Jane and Mowz (ah, what a good game).

It's Spooky Month!
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#42288: Mar 26th 2021 at 10:04:26 PM

I disagree sending Mario back to Hooktail castle is bastardly enough. By that time in the game Mario should be more than powerful enough for it to be nothing more than slight hiccup. However I do think being a Classy Cat-Burglar does push her into bad enough territory, so I'll give a leaning [tup].

[up]It is a great one!

Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 26th 2021 at 1:11:28 PM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#42289: Mar 26th 2021 at 10:05:04 PM

[tup] Mowz (We're going to need a Mario page at this rate.)

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#42290: Mar 27th 2021 at 1:05:46 AM

[tup]Mows.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#42295: Mar 27th 2021 at 7:36:20 AM

[tup] Nomed.

[tup] Kairos.

[tup] Xeno Queen.

[tup] June.

[tup] Huburt.

[tup] Mowz.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
RK93 Since: Aug, 2020
#42297: Mar 27th 2021 at 7:55:56 AM

Okay, I'm not sure about this one but let's give it a shot.

What's the Work

Freddy Fazbear's Pizzeria Simulator is an entry in the Five Nights At Freddys franchise. Although it presents itself as a tycoon-like game about creating your own Freddy Fazbear's Pizza, it's made quickly clear that it's actually a Five Nights at Freddy's 6.

Who is Henry Emily and what has he done?

Henry Emily, also known as the Cassette Man, is the franchise's overall Greater-Scope Paragon.

He's the owner of Fredbear's Family Diner and Freddy Fazbear's Pizza, as well as the creator of the springlock suits, the original four animatronics and the Puppet. Speaking of the Puppet, she was assigned with a bracelet so she can protect Henry's daughter, Charlotte. Unfortunately, in the year 1983, Charlie was locked outside the building by three assholes while the Puppet couldn't get out of the music box thanks to another box being on top of her box. Even more unfortunately, William Afton was driving to Freddy's with his purple car, and used the opportunity to kill Charlie. By the time the Puppet leaves the building, Charlie's dead. However, the Puppet broke down in the rain, allowing Charlie to possess her.

While Henry was heartbroken enough over this, William twisted the knife even further when he murdered five children at Freddy's and hid their corpses. Somewhere before or after this, we don't know clearly, William's youngest son (Evan?) gets killed by his older brother, Michael, in an accident, causing Fredbear's to shut down. Henry leaves the company.

Decades later, in 2023, Henry decides to move his ass and stop the madness. Henry first creates Lefty, with the sole intention of capturing the Puppet, and he succeeds. He then opens a fake Freddy Fazbear's Pizza and hires Michael, who by now is a purple zombie after a encounter with his younger sister, originally planning an exit on him, by scrapping the plan due to a feeling that Michael wants to die. Without filling Michael on the true details of this job, Henry lures in four animatronics: Lefty, Molten Freddy (three of William's creations merged into one body), Scrap Baby (Michael's sister Elizabeth) and Afton (self-explanatory). From now on, the endings determine what happens:

  • Completionist/Golden Ending: Michael salvages all four animatronics. Moments before Scrap Baby kills Mike, Henry interrupts with a monologue, during which he sets the pizzeria on fire. He assures all animatronics that they're going to a better place, condemns Afton straight to Hell and apologizes to his daughter for not being there when she died. Everyone dies in the fire, including the suicidal Henry... except Afton.

  • Insanity Ending: Michael finds a recording where he hears Henry explaining his motives and what a sick bastard William is. Henry declares Michael insane so no one will believe what he says.

  • Bad Ending: Michael doesn't salvage all four animatronics, Henry fires him.

  • Blacklisted Ending: Due to Michael buying too many items with a liabilty rate, Henry treats Michael himself a liability hazard and blacklists him.

  • Other Endings: It's not stated what happens to Henry or what he does.

At the end, Henry manages to end the Fazbear legacy for a few years.

Is Henry Emily magnificent?

This guy legit caused what might be one of the most awesome moments in the franchise and ended the franchise for two years (by this series' standards, it's a lot), sure as hell he is. Oh, and yeah, tricking two animatronics and one zombie into thinking it's a normal Freddy's (Afton actually knew it was a trap, but still went there because you can't pass up the opportunity to kill a few kids For the Evulz).

Is Henry Emily as bastard?

It might take some stretching and looking into non-canon moments, but I'll say he's done enough morally questionable things to qualify:

  • For startes, he owned Fazbear Entertainment during the times of the Missing Children Incident, and we know thanks to 3 that by then, the company was already pretty questionable when it comes to treating employees well.
  • Removes the only exit from the burning building because he felt like Michael wanted to die. First, Michael didn't even know the place was gonna burn down, and second, what if he didn't want to die? (even if that's unlikely)
  • Declares you insane thanks to finding out his plans in the Insanity Ending.

Verdict

I'd give a [tup]

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#42298: Mar 27th 2021 at 7:57:45 AM

I need some elaboration on those three things as to what is non-canon? Is it just the insanity ending?

Nevermind I think you went over it. I think he gets an [tup] from me.

Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 27th 2021 at 10:59:33 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
RK93 Since: Aug, 2020
#42299: Mar 27th 2021 at 7:58:39 AM

Only the last one is non-canon.

Edited by RK93 on Mar 27th 2021 at 3:58:59 PM

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love

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