During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Please gut some potholes and see if it can be trimmed in general at all but whenever you're set, feel free to add to the drafts and I'll make sure he gets requested tomorrow...
Speaking of which:
- Fate Apocrypha: Shirou Kotomine is a Church minister presiding over the Red Faction and is the Master of Assassin Semiramis. In reality, he is Amakusa Shirou Tokisada, Ruler Servant summoned in a prior Grail War. Noble and benevolent, his methods are ruthless and cunning. Seeking humanity's redemption out of pure love for mankind, Shirou bid his time, gathered items as catalysts to summon a Servant in the Middle East, and waited Yggdemillenia of the Black Faction to show themselves. Midway during the next Grail War, Shirou launched an ambitious attack that sees him singlehandedly take over the Servants of the Red Faction, reclaim the lost Greater Grail, and out-gambit his enemy Darnic. He intends to invade Greater Grail's innards to access True Magic to begin humanity's salvation. Ever calm and collected, it is only when he is minutes close to achieving his dangerously alluring dream that Shirou rants to Seig not to ruin humanity's salvation.
- Heavy Object: Among the people in a world where war is the norm, the following make a devious record with what they have:
- Volume 6: Sogia, formerly White Bears leader Yulenzak, body guarded Princess Staivia, Dimiksy's sister. Years ago, he learned of Dimiksy's plan to assassinate Staivia under and his assassination of Excelsyla to obtain her Object, however the conspiracy couldn't be thwarted or slowed. Deciding to go into hiding and stop this plan, Sogia and the White Bears were supposedly killed by fake Information Alliance troops from Dimiksy's faction. However Sogia's unit, having anticipated it, faked their deaths and became Unicorn to thwart Dimiksy from the shadows, even willing to shed their morals. They've also used manipulation to get Qwenthur and Havia reassigned so they learn of Dimiksy's plans. They've also interfered with the duo's operation in Athabasca. When Qwenthur and Havia fight Dimiksy and his Object, Broad Sky Saber, Sogia and Unicorn steal the Forest Roller Object in hopes of using it against the Sky Saber. Unfortunately, the Roller gets destroyed by Dimiksy's laser cannon, having anticipated the attack, which revealed the Object's anti-laser beacon. With Sogia's aid, Qwenthur and Havia corrupt it to make the laser kill Dimiksy and save Staivia in the process.
- Volume 10: Nyarlathotep, was formerly from the Capitalist Enterprise spy cabal Outer Gods. As a spy, he had numerous times both gotten plastic surgery and faked his death. Once their leader, Azathoth/Acres Kiss-of-Rose, retired and began leading one of the 7th Cores ruling the Capitalist Enterprise, Nyarlathotep retired and became a family man in Soberania. But when his family gets killed in Soberania's destruction at Azathoth's hands, the vengeful Nyarlathotep resorted to psychological warfare in order to start the Gigant Hustler, an event showcasing Object fights. Nyarlathotep then infiltrated the Hustler and sabotaged a participant to draw Azathoth into the event. Once the event is canceled, with one of his Objects destroyed, Azathoth plans an attack to divert attention away from him... only for Nyarly to kidnap and kill him at the remains of Soberania. In order to avert a war between every faction, Nyarlathotep faced a farcical military trial by the Legitimacy Kingdom. He then killed the assassin sent to silence him and faked his death once again, before departing elsewhere.
- Volume 11: Alisa and her sisters, Rica and Orisa, from the Information Alliance's Martini Series, help Flag Eggnog start wars between the Vanderbilts and the Winchels, and even assisting him with the drug war and the Plasma 177 construction meant to keep him in power. In actuality, they're manipulating Eggnog in order to obtain data on nobles for the Perfect Browsing project, a system that would display how to resolve a worldwide crisis by just typing a text string into a search engine. They start many sample incidents and disasters as possible, preferring to get info from a noble near the top of an enemy world power, using Eggnog who was so dimwitted to believe they're allies. Nearing conclusion of the Celestial Flowers attack, the sisters contact Flag and reveal their true goals and manipulation, noting that they'd now obtained data on the full-speed collapse of a royal's life, planning to upload it entirely for everyone to see, before hanging up on the confused, infuriated prince and leaving him to his ruin.
- Trigun:
- Millions Knives is a humanoid plant who was driven to misanthropy upon discovering humanity had performed horrifying experiments on his own kind. Even as a child manipulating the "Great Fall," an event where he caused an entire fleet of humanity to crash to their deaths on the planet Gunsmoke, Knives in the present seeks revenge on both humans and his twin Vash for allying with them. Siccing the Gung-Ho Guns onto Vash to distract and torment him by targeting innocents, Knives traverses Gunsmoke and influences other Plants to merge with him, making him all the stronger as he reveals his final plan to lure the final vestiges of humanity to Gunsmoke, wipe them all out, and use their Plant captives to create a new, peaceful world of nature and flourishing life. Upon being defeated and witnessing humanity realize the error of their ways, Knives saves his brother's life and spends his last moments granting a poor family a bountiful apple tree as the only recompense for his atrocities he is able to perform.
- Legato Bluesummers from the anime sheds his manga counterpart's Laughing Mad insanity and numerous breakdowns, instead being a suave, always calm mastermind who serves as Vash's true Arch-Enemy in the series. A nihilist with the belief that all of humanity meaningless and deserves to be purged to save it from misery and despair, Legato allies with Millions Knives in preparing for the destruction of humankind and the rising of Plant life. Not entirely devoid of respectable attributes even as he sends the Gung-Ho Guns after Vash with orders to target civilians in the process just to torture the pacifistic hero, Legato slaughters a group of human traffickers and frees their slaves, informing the young women to use their time wisely before Knives wipes them all out. In the end, Legato forces Vash to break his Thou Shalt Not Kill code, giving him the ultimatum of either shooting Legato or watching as his best friends are murdered by the villain, and dies with a smile on his face as he knows the act of taking a human life will drive Vash into utter despair.
- Gasback Gallon Getaway is a roguish, boisterous criminal who, despite his brutish appearance, is in truth a calculating thief who views the act of robbery and thievery as "art" forms. After his initial bank heist is foiled by treacherous minions, Gasback spends decades plotting both revenge against the men for "sullying" the art of robbery with their dishonorable betrayal, and the greatest heist he's ever concocted. Laying waste to two of the men's prospering enterprises, Gasback repeats the process on his final betrayer, revealing at the same time that each of his before robberies were all to amass materials needed to steal a Plant, which he pulls off flawlessly before escaping. Giving Vash one of the hardest fought battles of his life through sheer determination to never lose, Gasback gains respect for the hero when beaten, and is revealed to have spent those decades of planning taking care of a woman he loved and even leaving her enough money to sustain her for the rest of her life. Always charming even with his loud personality, Gasback was undoubtedly the most swashbuckling villain Vash ever faced.
- Block 109: Grand Master Zytek was once a member of the anti-Nazi resistance who pledged to infiltrate the Nazi German hierarchy in order to destroy it from within. Zytek assassinates Adolf Hitler himself, which inadvertently causes a more effective leadership to take charge of the Third Reich and escalate the war, destroying much of the world population in a full-scale nuclear attack, along with Zytek's beloved family. Zytek later becomes ultimate leader, using his private paramilitary organization the Teutonic Order to foil his enemies within the Reich, stopping an attempted coup d'etat by his ambitious rival Reinhard Heydrich before he can even put it into action, and wipes out the rest of the Nazi leadership in one fell swoop for their crimes against humanity. Zytek's ultimate plan is to destroy the major warring powers in a nuclear apocalypse while allowing a select group of people from the Reich and other populations around the world to survive and rebuild civilization. A charismatic leader who inspires nothing but total devotion from his men because of his convictions and courage in battle, Zytek is a deeply tragic figure who ultimately dies in a valiant last stand to rid the world of its worst evils and save mankind in the long run.
- Les Aigles de Rome: Ermanamer/Arminius is a prince of the Cherusci who is sent as a hostage to Rome to ensure his tribe's loyalty. Growing up among a Roman family, Arminius becomes Blood Brothers with Marcus Valerius Falco, spending their young years training to be warriors and living a carefree life bedding women, getting into fights, and watching horse races. When Marcus is planning to throw away his career by running away with a girl he fell in love with, Arminius arranges to break them up. Becoming an officer in the staff of General Varus at the Rhine frontier, Ermanamer serves Rome's interests while secretly never having lost his sense of patriotism, biding his time by becoming an accomplice in a plot by Varus and one of his other officers, Lepidus, to overthrow Augustus himself. Marcus, who has arrived with instructions to spy on his brother, is found out by Ermanamer within days of his arrival and is later framed for the murder of Varus' lover Nektarios. Ermanamer also takes his beloved Thusnelda away from her disapproving father Segestes, eloping with her and making Segestes appear unreliable to the Romans in the process. Setting out to free Germania from Roman rule and fulfill a prophecy given to him by a woods witch, Ermanamer establishes himself as leader of the tribes before luring the Roman army into a trap at Teutoburg Forest. Having successfully wiped out three legions of the most powerful army in the world, Ermanamer is crowned King of the Germanii.
- Baby Driver: Doc is a criminal mastermind who formed an enterprise on the basis of intricate and precise robberies. He demonstrates impressive planning—from what to wear, who to contact, and how to escape—and takes into account every eventuality. One of Doc's main strategies to avoid being caught is to use a different crew for every bank robbery he stages, though he does mix and match members of those various crews along the way. Having zero tolerance for stupidity, Doc sees the titular Baby as his lucky charm to the point he's willing to gaslight the kid even after he's paid off his debt. In the climax after his criminal enterprise has been uprooted in one reckless night, Doc packs up his base of operations to leave, but seeing the couple Baby and Debora, he decides to help them escape all because he was in love once like them, even giving up his life.
- Mad Max 2: The Road Warrior: The eloquent Lord Humungus is 'the warrior of the Wasteland' and 'The Ayatollah of Rock'n'Rollah' who relentlessly scourges settlements in search of gasoline. A mastermind, the Lord Humungus causes the overthrow of his enemies and repeatedly outdoes them, even using misdirection like offering the settlement safe passage and a peace if they surrender the gasoline-only to reveal to his right hand man Wez he plans to allow Wez to take his revenge for his lover's death as soon as they have what they want. The Lord Humungus also relies on intimidation tactics and shows himself to be shockingly well spoken, being the deadliest enemy in the Wasteland Max has to fight.
- Marvel Cinematic Universe: Live-action series:
- Luke Cage: Hernán "Shades" Alvarez is a charismatic criminal of Harlem who during his time at Seagate Penitentiary ran a prison fight ring along with Comanche and a corrupt warden. Upon returning to Harlem, he became the Hyper-Competent Sidekick of the Stokes family, the most powerful crime family in Harlem, brokering deals for the family to gain high tech weaponry. Despite his loyalties, he has no problems turning against his masters when they turn against him, such as when he planned to kill Cottonmouth only to find Mariah Dillard committing the act which Shades helped her coverup by framing Luke Cage and Diamondback for the deed, killing any witnesses in the scenes, and successfully sending Luke back to prison. During that time Shades becomes enamored with Mariah helping her become the leader of her crime family with him as her lover, only to become horrified of her decision to massacre an entire restaurant full of innocents, so much so that he orchestrates her entire downfall by becoming an informant for the police. Always maintaining his cool and suave demeanor, Sades even accepts his final defeat with grace.
- Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: The man once known as Alveus, upon Kree experimentation, was forever transformed into "Hive." Through sheer intellect and force of will, Hive drove the Kree from earth, rallying all The Inhumans to his side in the process, and though banished from earth by treacherous followers, Hive nonetheless laid the groundwork for the formation of HYDRA, the death cult organization that has haunted the world for centuries after. In the present, Hive manipulates himself back to earth with help from Gideon Malick, and immediately amasses a small following of Inhumans. Using Malick before murdering him once he outlives his usefulness, Hive stays one step ahead of S.H.I.E.L.D. throughout the series, even turning Daisy Johnson to his side and using her as a mole. Though driven temporarily insane, Hive is revealed to have exaggerated even this as a plot to be captured then use SHIELD's own devices to enact his final plan of turning a chunk of humanity into Inhumans so as to create a perfect, peaceful paradise. Hive's final moments are spent calmly reflecting that he truly wanted what was best for Inhumans, and dies realizing and admitting that perhaps humanity isn't as deserving of destruction as he once thought.
- Dungeons & Dragons: The Demon Lord Graz'zt is theorized to be an archdevil who carved out his own territory in the abyss and decided to reside there, and it is easy to see why. Graz'zt is stunningly intelligent for a demon, plotting and scheming against his fellow demon lords while seeking to take the title of Prince from Demogorgon, and is known for making deals with mortals, as well as being disturbingly charismatic to those he encounters. In one instance, Graz'zt even captured the goddess Waukeen and held her hostage in his nation of Zelatar, even using this to pervert part of her clergy to his own worship later. When he was summoned and imprisoned by the witch Iggwilv, Graz'zt seduced her, with the two having an intense love-hate relationship ever since.
- Batman: The Telltale Series: Lady Arkham, real name of Victoria Arkham AKA "Vicki" Vale, is the charming, strategic leader of the Children of Arkham, a terrorist organization seeking absolution for the crimes committed against them by the higher society of Gotham City. A victim of abuse who lost her parents at a young age thanks to Thomas Wayne's corruption, Arkham spent her childhood plotting revenge and making schemes, and upon adulthood, puts these into action as she rallies the otherwise peaceful Children of Arkham and radicalizes them into a military force. Utilizing an insanity drug to drive mayor Harvey Dent mad—injecting the serum into the other candidate in the process as a precaution—Arkham uses her public guise to masterfully manipulate the situation to seem as though the Children of Arkham are heroes, driving Bruce Wayne himself temporarily insane and getting him thrown into Arkham Asylum. When her master plan to flood the streets with her insanity drug fails, Arkham initiates her backup plan to raid Arkham Asylum and free the dozens of inmates as a final "justice" against the corrupt Asylum's checkered past.
- inFAMOUS: Kessler is a version of Cole MacGrath from the future where he lost his entire family from The Beast's rampage. Traveling back in time he forcibly took control of the First Sons where he had them create the Ray Sphere and then giving it to Cole MacGrath, resulting in the latter getting his powers, as well as causing massive collateral damage to Empire City and its eventual quarantine. Setting himself as Cole's nemesis, he tricks Cole into believing he had cause the grim future, manipulates Cole's best friend Zeke into joining his side, and giving Cole a series of Sadistic Choices leading to the death of Cole's girlfriend Trish. Successfully causing Cole to seek vengeance on Kessler, he gives Cole the Ray Sphere to use, before fighting him head on. Upon being defeated, Kessler then reveals to Cole his true identity, as well the existence of The Beast and the destruction he'll bring, admitting that his actions against Cole was to make him stronger so that he'll be able to succeed at stopping The Beast where Kessler himself failed.
- Super Paper Mario: Dimentio is a magical and theatrical jester who acts as one of Count Bleck's lieutenants, when in fact he plans to betray the Count and seize control of the Chaos Heart in order to recreate all worlds in his own image. Manipulating both the heroes and the villains towards his goals, Dimentio subtly ensures that the four heroes of the Light Prognosticus (Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser) are brought together and that they collect all eight of the Pure Hearts needed to defeat Count Bleck. Listening in on Count Bleck's secret conversations with his assistant Nastasia, Dimentio learns of Bleck's true desire to leave the worlds in ruin rather than recreate them and of his past love with Timpani, which Dimentio uses to further emotionally manipulate him. During the Final Battle at Castle Bleck, Dimentio secretly implants a Floro Sprout within Luigi's mind to mind control him, as Luigi is the "dark one" needed to complete the prophecy of the Chaos Heart. Once Count Bleck has been defeated and the Pure Hearts have been used up, Dimentio activates the Floro Sprout within Luigi's mind and fuses them both with the Chaos Heart to form Super Dimentio and finish the destruction of worlds. A cunning manipulator with a love of theatrics, Dimentio would have won had the Pure Hearts not been restored at the last second by Bleck and Tippi's love for each other.
- World of Warcraft:
- Illidan Stormrage is revealed as a dark Well-Intentioned Extremist in the Legion expansion who joined the Highborne during the War Of the Ancients to bring them down from within. Upon being shown by Sargeras the Legion's true might, Illidan has realized just how dire the fight truly is. After being freed in modern day, Illidan delves into dark powers and even makes himself the Legion lord Kil'Jaeden's servant to undermine them from within, taking over Outland and putting together a group of demon hunters while striking at the Legion's own worlds and dealing them their worst defeats in eons. upon his revival, Illidan brings the world of Azeroth close to the Legion world of Argus to 'force the hand of fate' and helps lead a daring strike on the Legion, forming the strategies to crush them once and for all before electing to serve as the eternal jailer for Sargeras himself. A complex, fascinating figure to the end, Illidan has been one of Azeroth's greatest villains and greatest heroes, giving all he has to secure Sargeras's fall after ten thousand years.
- Drakuru is an ice troll who is friendly enough to talk to the PC and actually genuinely appears to like them. He came out of nowhere, was trapped in a cage as a lowbie mob, and without leaving his cage or really telling you much of anything except he had a cool idea and wants to learn some stuff, manipulates the heroes into taking down the entire Drakkari empire. By the time you get to Zul'Drak, the trolls inside are almost all dead or killing and eating their own deities in a desperate attempt to stave off the Scourge. He is very much Affably Evil as well. When he gets his "reward" from Arthas — death and resurrection as a powerful Death Knight — he offers the heroes the same "benefit" as their reward for helping him gain the position. When they turn it down, he simply acknowledges your choice, thanks you for your help, and rewards you without further incident.
- Orgrim Doomhammer, the second Warchief of the Horde, overthrows Gul'dan and his Shadow Council, killing their pawn Warchief Blackhand and declares himself the new master of the orcs. Devoted to his people and honorable in ways Gul'dan never was, Orgrim takes over the war and nearly brings the entire human alliance to its knees, stopped only by Gul'dan's treachery. Orgrim shows an exceptional grasp of tactics and strategy, even managing to ambush the Alliance's greatest hero, Anduin Lothar, and defeating him in single combat before being captured at the war's end. Escaping, Orgrim later resurfaces to guide the young orc Thrall to help save their people and eventually gives his life for their freedom, naming Thrall his successor as Warchief.
- Loken was one of the Keepers tasked by the Titans to watch over Azeroth and the imprisoned Old Gods, but over time was corrupted by Yogg-Saron and betrayed the other Keepers and their allies. After accidentally killing Sif, his brother Thorim's wife, Loken framed the ice giants which started a war between Thorim and them; he then convinced Helya to turn against her father Odyn and lock him and his army away, arranged for Mimiron's 'accidental' death, subdued and captured Freya and Hodir when they were on their own, and sent the monstrous C'thraxxi to kill or scare away the rest. For his most ambitious plot, Loken took the form of the witch Lok'lira and played on the player character's Chronic Hero Syndrome by subtly guiding them into performing seemingly altruistic actions — rescuing a slave, repairing friendships, helping Thorim get through his depression — all to make Thorim brave enough to confront Loken when in fact he was being lured into a trap. Having systematically eliminated anyone who could pose a threat to him, Loken forged the Keepers' records and crowned himself Prime Designate, both to cover his crimes and to make sure that, if he were to be killed anyway, his death would send a signal telling Algalon to wipe all life on Azeroth.
- Xenoblade Chronicles: Egil is a Machina, the leader of the Mechon army, creator of the Faced Mechon, and the mastermind behind their invasion of Bionis. Egil was once friends with Arglas from Bionis with whom he discussed the idea of leaving the world of Bionis and Mechonis in search of new worlds, and of peace and coexistence. However, when Arglas was possessed by Zanza and laid waste to Mechonis, Egil swore revenge and, when both titans were put to sleep, began attacking Bionis hoping to wipe out as much life as possible on the titan so that, when Zanza returned, he would be more vulnerable to kill. Once Skulk learns of his past and confronts him in Mechonis Core, Skulk offers a chance to let go of revenge and change the world together. But thanks to Zanza's timely resurrection, Egil instead gives his life so the heroes can escape, placing his hopes they can kill the evil god without resorting to the extremes he went to.
- Beware the Batman:
- Deathstroke, real name Slade Wilson, was once a CIA agent who was booted after his excessive cruelty in the name of protecting his country. Becoming a mercenary for hire soon after, Deathstroke pulled off flawless operations before eventually using his amassed resources to target his former mentor, and the man who got him fired from the CIA, MI 6 agent Alfred Pennyworth. Framing Batman as a villain and seemingly murdering Bruce Wayne, all while masquerading as Dane Lisslow, Deathstroke handily tricks the Dark Knight into lowering his guard in a duel by faking his motivations, and later breaks into the otherwise impenetrable Batcave, captures both Batman and Alfred, and prepares to force the latter to watch as he murders Batman before him as a final vengeance against his former mentor for ruining his life.
- Anarky is Batman's Arch-Enemy, and a chaos-loving mastermind intent on enabling people to "free" themselves from the binds of morality and order. Introducing himself to Gotham by becoming a "patron" to two thugs and turning them into supervillains, Anarky later steals the comatose body of Ra's al Ghul to coerce the League of Assassins into stealing a chemical compound for him, only to reveal he's tricked them into unleashing a plague onto Gotham. Allying with and corrupting District Attorney Harvey Dent while consistently masking his true schemes even to Batman, Anarky succeeds in driving Dent into evil and happily accepts his eventual defeat by Batman, simply proclaiming he's ready to "play again" before enacting his next plans to unlock every door in Gotham and enable the citizens a night of debauchery and anarchy.
- Ra's Al-Ghul is the leader of the League of Assassins. An immortal warrior who has toppled civilizations over the centuries, Ra's currently uses the mercenary Cypher to mind control scientists into creating the Ion Cortex, tricking the Wayne Foundation into funding the project. Using the Cortex, Ra's knocks out power in Gotham, murders anyone who stands in his way, and plans to strong-arm the leaders of the city into allowing the League to set up shop in Gotham as their new base of operations. Controlling the League through sheer charisma and intimidation, Ra's handily defeats any opponents in combat, notices the most minor errors in his plans and orders them immediately corrected, and nearly took over Gotham City in the matter of a few days, all to enable his growing plan to wipe out what he deemed to be irredeemable crime and filth in the world.
- The Boondocks: Reverend Rollo Goodlove is a straw liberal activist whose motivations behind his multiple causes are money and publicity. First appearing in "The S-Word", Rollo convinces the Freemans to sue Mr. Petto for using a "racial slur" on Riley, and prolonging the issue by collaborating with Ann Colter in orchestrating a political debate. In "The Hunger Strike" he convinces Huey to continue his hunger strike in the kid's efforts to boycott BET, only to abandon his cause once the network gives Rollo his own TV sitcom. Helping the Freemans once again in "The New Black", he manages to convince the public that Riley is a special needs child whose uses the word "gay" to describe something he doesn't like, switching their ire to the gay rights community who sued Riley for saying the slur. While the his beliefs in his causes might not be genuine, his charisma and master planning are, making Rollo Goodlove the most likable mastermind on the show.
- DuckTales (2017): Scrooge's old flame and "ex-everything," Goldie O'Gilt, is a beautiful, conniving treasure hunter who rivals Scrooge himself in sheer wit and tenacity. Lacking Scrooge's scruples and possessed of a penchant for betrayal, Goldie has backstabbed Scrooge countless times to leave him in the wake of danger while she constantly walks off untouched. In her debut episode, Goldie plays both Scrooge and Flintheart in her pursuit of the Golden Lagoon, using Scrooge to locate the Lagoon for her before managing to fake her death with the Eye of Demogorgon and making off with the treasure herself, completely untouched in the end. Even through their constant quarreling and rivalry, Goldie and Scrooge retain a fierce, mutual respect for each other, with Goldie always knowing Scrooge will make it out alive out of whatever conundrum she leaves him in and Scrooge acknowledging her as his greatest Worthy Opponent.
MagnificentBastard.Video Games quote:
I thank you for those, sir!... Actually because of the Final Fantasy XIII trilogy that's going to push the tree to four bullets, so: page time, yay! Any ideas for a quote there?
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Fuck, I forgot it was there lol... alright, anyone got something else for the gen. video games page?
Edited by 43110 on Sep 2nd 2018 at 5:39:21 AM
I had this ready to go until Firefox decided to randomly close and destroy my write-ups...
Alas...
- Final Fantasy:
- Compilation of Final Fantasy VII: Consummate businessman Rufus Shinra spent his vice-presidency funding the activites of an early iteration of AVALANCHE to subvert his father in hopes attaining the position for himself. When Sephiroth murders him and parts of the company in cold blood, a parade is held in the newly inaugurated President Rufus's honor to mark a new era. When the Weapons attack the world to protect the Lifestream, Rufus tries to get rid of them but is caught an explosion. Revealed to have survived, Rufus powers through restrictive circumstances to get his company back on top, including building the city of Edge with a Meteor monument to represent his rise to power and discovering the remains of Jenova to keep for himself. He later implicitly manipulates Cloud to battling Kadaj and the other Remnants of Sephiroth and derives great amusement in easily fooling Kadaj, having kept Jenova's head with him the whole time.
- Final Fantasy XIII-2: Caius Ballard is a Guardian tasked with protecting the seeress and became Paddra legend because of his might. Moved by his honor and tenacity, the goddess Etro awarded the former l'Cie with the Heart of Chaos to make him an immortal warrior to continue his duty forever. Once Caius realizes the curse of immortality, he concocts a plan to destroy of all time, by opening the Door to Souls, so Yeul and indirectly everyone else can no longer experience the pain of mortality. To that end, he tries to kill Etro directly in Valhalla, but when that fails, he sets to collapse Hope's New Coccoon to cause mass destruction, even manipulating a scared Alyssa to put Serah and Noel—his biggest opposition—on a dangeorus detour. When that fails as well, Caius has Noel, his Guardian successor he personally groomed, stab the Heart of Chaos. In the end, Caius becomes one of the few series antagonists to completely win.
- Fate Apocrypha: Shirou Kotomine is a Church minister presiding over the Red Faction and is the Master of Assassin Semiramis. In reality, he is Amakusa Shirou Tokisada, Ruler Servant summoned in a prior Grail War. Noble and benevolent, his methods are ruthless and cunning. Seeking humanity's redemption out of pure love for mankind, Shirou bid his time, gathered items as catalysts to summon a Servant in the Middle East, and waited Yggdemillenia of the Black Faction to show themselves. Midway during the next Grail War, Shirou launched an ambitious attack that sees him singlehandedly take over the Servants of the Red Faction, reclaim the lost Greater Grail, and out-gambit his enemy Darnic. He intends to invade Greater Grail's innards to access True Magic to begin humanity's salvation. Ever calm and collected, it is only when he is minutes close to achieving his dangerously alluring dream that Shirou rants to Seig not to ruin humanity's salvation.
- Xenoblade Chronicles: Egil is a Machina, the leader of the Mechon army, creator of the Faced Mechon, and the mastermind behind their invasion of Bionis. Egil was once friends with Arglas from Bionis with whom he discussed the idea of leaving the world of Bionis and Mechonis in search of new worlds, and of peace and coexistence. However, when Arglas was possessed by Zanza and laid waste to Mechonis, Egil swore revenge and, when both titans were put to sleep, began attacking Bionis hoping to wipe out as much life as possible on the titan so that, when Zanza returned, he would be more vulnerable to kill. Once Skulk learns of his past and confronts him in Mechonis Core, Skulk offers a chance to let go of revenge and change the world together. But thanks to Zanza's timely resurrection, Egil instead gives his life so the heroes can escape, placing his hopes they can kill the evil god without resorting to the extremes he went to.
- Baby Driver: Doc is a criminal mastermind who formed an enterprise on the basis of intricate and precise robberies. He demonstrates impressive planning—from what to wear, who to contact, and how to escape—and takes into account every eventuality. One of Doc's main strategies to avoid being caught is to use a different crew for every bank robbery he stages, though he does mix and match members of those various crews along the way. Having zero tolerance for stupidity, Doc sees the titular Baby as his lucky charm to the point he's willing to gaslight the kid even after he's paid off his debt. In the climax after his criminal enterprise has been uprooted in one reckless night, Doc packs up his base of operations to leave, but seeing the couple Baby and Debora, he decides to help them escape all because he was in love once like them, even giving up his life.
Edited by erazor0707 on Sep 1st 2018 at 8:43:34 AM
Double post to respond to 43 so it won't get lost.
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A quote, huh? Hmm... Shouldn't we just use the one on Video Games right now? And find a replacement? Less restrictive since there's more materials for video games in general.
Edited by erazor0707 on Sep 1st 2018 at 9:11:45 AM
I got a couple:
And for the heck of it, since we're trying to get a quote buffer going...
Thanks! Yeah, House is probably better but Ganon's got that iconic status going. Either could work, really.
Edited by DocSharp on Sep 1st 2018 at 9:17:08 AM
Thanks Doc! I slightly prefer House's but Dorf's is great too. Thanks for the bonus WA one as well
Cool... feel free to add your preference, as I like both, as well as the Scorpio one and for all I've made the FF MB page, feel free to edit it... as I must admit I don't know what goes under "Spin off" and what under "Sub series" like they've got on the CM one.
Thanks and looks great! Add it up and I'll get it done in the morning.
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sure, didn't know he did
Edited by 43110 on Sep 1st 2018 at 1:39:12 PM
Alright, here's my revised draft. I cut down on the potholes and tried to shorten it as much as I could. You can make further revisions if you feel there are more things that can be cut.
- Super Paper Mario: Dimentio is a magical and theatrical jester who acts as one of Count Bleck's lieutenants, when in fact he plans to betray the Count and seize control of the Chaos Heart in order to recreate all worlds in his own image. Manipulating both the heroes and the villains towards his goals, Dimentio subtly ensures that the four heroes of the Light Prognosticus (Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser) are brought together and that they collect all eight of the Pure Hearts needed to defeat Count Bleck. Listening in on Count Bleck's secret conversations with his assistant Nastasia, Dimentio learns of Bleck's true desire to leave the worlds in ruin rather than recreate them and of his past love with Timpani, which Dimentio uses to further emotionally manipulate him. During the Final Battle at Castle Bleck, Dimentio secretly implants a Floro Sprout within Luigi's mind to mind control him, as Luigi is the "dark one" needed to complete the prophecy of the Chaos Heart. Once Count Bleck has been defeated and the Pure Hearts have been used up, Dimentio activates the Floro Sprout within Luigi's mind and fuses them both with the Chaos Heart to form Super Dimentio and finish the destruction of worlds. A cunning manipulator with a love of theatrics, Dimentio would have won had the Pure Hearts not been restored at the last second by Bleck and Tippi's love for each other.
@43110: for Beware the Batman. Anarky actually already has a page Anarky. Do you want to use that for the first use of his name.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Okay so its been more than two weeks since Disenchantment which takes place in a medieval fantasy world that takes multiple jabs at medieval culture and life and. Now out of everyone in the show Queen Dagmar, is the closest to counting, being a cool and charismatic manipulator able to think on the fly and currently has her daughter wrapped around her finger. That said given that show will have a Second season I'd say put Queen Dagmar on the waitlist to see if she'll still be able to keep her cool and charisma.
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffGuys. Most of us should already known of 5 Elementos. The hybrid of Naruto, FMA and Avatar given that I mentioned it today in the CM thread and did three CM EP.
But there a guy whose badassery and intelligence made him notable. He's a asshole but I respect him. One of the titular Five elements himself.
Bow to his majesty. Who is...
The King of Leona, Alphonse Hangul
Alphonse Hangul, also known as Aither Killin, is the real Big Bad of the whole story.
Chronological order. For our sake.
Alphonse was the Prince of the kingdom of Leona, son of Gylfi Hangul, he inherited the mysterious and secret Element No. 5, The Power of the Void.
He was trained for Belenus Llamaviva, grandfather of protagonist Kaji Llamaviva and one of the strongest elemental that lived. Alphonse was a talentous guy and reach his level.
In middle of his training, Alphonse pay a visit to Belenus adoptive brother, the children Bore Loftus. He befriended him and exposed his Social Darwinist views, knowing that Belenus wouldn't let him to admit them.
Eventually, Alphonse told him the truth about his parents and how they were traitors to his kingdom. However, Alphonse told him that he didn't care for his origins and only for his talent and loyalty.
Alphonse joined to Belenus and a young adult Bore (wind) alongside other two elementals Hodr Adrian (water) and Jaro Hallourmour (earth) to form the titular Cinco Elementos.
Belenus took the fake identity of Ken Valbrandur and they begin their adventures as a royal division. Eventually they crossed the ocean (a feat that no one could) and reach the Other World, a new continent.
They befriended the natives (except the Giant King) and reach Aya, the World Tree. While Alphonse was hurt in their travel, being near the tree made him awoke from his coma. They broke a branch and Belenus got hurt, Alphonse thought in using the power of the tree for the progress of mankind but Belenus forbide him for it due to the tree being the center of the world.
When they returned to Leona, Belenus told the truth about the tree to the king. He ultimately decided leave the tree alone and go for the diplomatic route before being murdered.
For Alphonse. Which then killed a sick Belenus (he got infected due to the contact with Aya) using his disguise of Ken Valbrandur and exilied his teammates. No one knew that the Prince was with them, so Alphonse become the king while demonized his old group after the apocalyptic Day Zero, where he unified the nations of his continent.
Alphonse wanted use the tree for the progress of humanity. So he ditched the pacifism and began the militarization of the nation with the intention of taking the World Tree after discovering The Chosen One Alchaest elemental. His goal was inmortality, being convinced that a immortal king would be eventually perfect due to experience.
Founding it after decades. Alphonse teams up with the sinister Dr. Ebola to empower himself by sacrificing a young elemental to empower himself. While Ebola don't care, Alphonse give himself a minute to apologize to the guy and tell him that his family would be rewarded.
When the sky go white and the World Tree is accessible. Alphonse began the invasion, starting the Fight for Aya and killing tons of people.
Alphonse fight against the tyrannical Giant King, who wants to protect Aya for —surprisingly— noble reasons. Alphonse wins and the Giant King die, Alphonse admits his respects for his deceased rival before going to Aya itself. In the way, he's fought for his old teammates, winning against them and forcing Hodr to sacrifice himself to let Lluvia escape.
There, he found a exhausted Lluvia Aquarrica, the girl that he was searching and tries to capture her. Aya begins to die due to the poisoning caused for Dr. Ebola and Lluvia falls, The Dragon Ember Llamaviva, elder son of Belenus and father of Kaji, discover the truth thanks to his son and the return of his little brother Benjamin (incarcerated for traition for Alphonse himself). Ember rightfully accuses Alphonse of traition for killing his father and fights him, Alphonse survive but he recovers quickly
However, Kaji had a idea and he manages to share the power of nature with Lluvia, causing both to be strong enough to beat Alphonse. Kaji refuses to give the final blow and pays for it when Alphonse impales him.
Then, Alphonse, at making direct contact with the Alchaest as he wanted he starts absorbing it. He had won.
But natures protects itself, and the energy overrided Alphonse which got turned into...a new Aya tree.
Charisma?
Alphonse was the king of youthful charisma in his youth, easily befriending Bore despite their differences and age gap. He was the closer to Belenus alongside his brother Bore and got along with everyone.
In his old days, he's still charismatic. He honorates his friendship with Belenus by taking some care of his family and refuses to execute his rebel son for years (for both honor and pragmatism) While giving some benefits to Ember (the loyalist son of Belenus).
He respects his enemies and wishes progress for humanity. His own soldiers are worse than him. He's easily the most honorable Arc Villain of the series.
Smart?
He planned the series. He's always making plans and is willing to improvise when necessary. He ultimately suceed in his plan, failing only for the godlike powers of nature itself which nobody predicted. He successfully tricked a whole nation.
Bastard?
He caused the Day Zero, the civil war that ravaged the kingdoms and caused the genocide of the earth and air elementals.
However, Alphonse didn't order the killing. The air and earth elementals were already really small minorities and the killings were done for uber racist millitars doing their own. Alphonse considerate them victims.
Alphonse has honor, as see above. Which is why he kept his dignity.
Funnily, he was a Smug Snake in his youth. But he mellowed out with age, becoming more honorable and respectful of his enemies while solidifying his ideals for a more altruist reason.
Basically, age turns a Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist Smug Snake into a more honorable genuine WIE.
His Social Darwinist stroke also become way more subtle, focused only in the millitary top rather in his view of the whole world.
And of course, his plan was basically risk the cycle of nature after starting a imperialist war against another continent.
Verdict?
Alphonse is a surprisingly dark and honorable villain for a series filled with comedy. I say
Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 2nd 2018 at 2:59:12 PM
Watch me destroying my countryOk, since you are all comfortable with RW!Bernie on here, here is the entry
- Red World:
- In this Game Mod for Hearts of Iron IV, Bernie Sanders is the governor of Vermont, and the mastermind of the 5/1 attacks. After losing his family in a political purge by the then-governor of Vermont in 1990 following the dissolution of the United States, Sanders abandons his democratic socialist ideals in favor of a warped "National Bolshevik" ideology combining Communist totalitarianism with American ultranationalism, and plans to seize power and avenge his family's death. In order to facilitate his rise to power, Sanders arms Neo-Nazi terrorist cells within the American People's Commonwealth to bring down the World Trade Center, and subsequently manipulates existing tensions within the APC to his advantage, as well as co-opting the pro-democracy movement as his base of support via charismatic speeches. Assuming he seizes power, he arranges the assassination of APC politician William Gates if the latter receives documents implicating Sanders' role in the 5/1 attacks, pinning the assassination on the American Republic and launching a retaliatory war in response. He then uses the war as a pretext to gain emergency powers, declaring himself as the Supreme Leader of the Greater American Union, and seeks to unify all of North America into the North American Union. As Supreme Leader, he launches major purges of the APC government and creates a cult of personality around himself. Despite these actions however, Sanders rule is not a wholly tyrannical one. This is because despite using Neo-Nazi terrorists to achieve his aims, Sanders does not share any of their racist worldviews, as evident by his implied disgust against the leadership of the Union of Lincoln. Furthermore, through his reforms, he allows for the rebuilding of infrastructure across America, significant benefits being granted to rural families, and the enshrining of fair wages and freedom of religion for everyone.
Edited by xie323 on Sep 2nd 2018 at 3:47:58 AM
I have another candidate.
What is the work?
Pillars of Eternity is a 2015 RPG by Obsidian Entertainment. It takes place in the world of Eora, where reincarnation is real and some people can Awaken to memories of their past lives. You play as an immigrant to the Free Palatiate of the Dyrwood, who comes across an arcane ritual and becomes a Watcher, one who has Awakened and can read the souls of others. The Watcher finds themself being gradually consumed by memories of their past life as an Inquisitor and to retain their sanity, goes on a quest to resolve some unfinished business with our candidate.
Who is Thaos Ix Arkannon?
Thousands of years before the start of the game, the Engwithan civilizaiton studied the truth of the gods, only to discover that the gods did not exist. The Engwithans believed that people needed gods for their lives to have meaning, and so they created their own pantheon by sacrificing thousands of souls of volunteers. One Engwithan, Thaos, was assigned to spread the faith of these new gods and prevent anyone from finding out that the gods are artificial. To accomplish this, Thaos was granted the ability to reincarnate with his personality and memory fully intact. He can also possess people with weak souls.
The Engwithans had ruins left behind in the Deadfire Archipelico, which is inhabited to different tribes of the Huana people. Thaos wanted to keep these ruins secret and decided to manipulate the radically isolationist Wahaki tribe into guarding the ruins. The Wahaki realized that Thaos was manipulating them and burnt him alive, but not before vowing to prevent any outsiders from entering the ruins just to spite Thaos. Thaos peacefully accepted this death because he had accomplished his mission, albeit not the way that he intended.
Thaos created an Inquisition to spread the faith by force. Thaos would torture heretics to near death, and then cast them into a spiked pit where their souls would be imprisoned and prevented from reincarnating unless they swear fealty to the gods.
One heretic, Iovara, was once a devote disciple of Thaos, until she overheard the Engwithan priests talk about the truth of the gods. Iovara started to preach that the gods weren't real. Thaos assigned the Inquisitor, a close acquaintance of Iovara, to capture her, which the Inquisitor did. Thaos tortured and executed Iovara, but she refused to recant her heresy. The Inqusiitor was deeply uneased by this and asked Thaos if the gods were real. Thaos dodged the question, reassured the Inquisitor that faith in the gods is needed, and polietly but nonsubtly threatened to kill the Inquisitor if they continued to press the issue.
After the Inquisition spreads its faith across the entire world and is no longer needed, Thaos founds a secret society called the Leaden Key, which is nominally a cult dedicated to the worship of Woedicca, Goddess of Law. The Leaden Key's operatives work in cells that have no knowledge of one another or the organizaiton's greater plans. Their members simply trust that they are doing the gods' will. Only Thaos knows how the Leaden Key's schemes fit togheter.
Now thousands of years after the Inquisition (when the game takes place), there is a widespread science called animancy, the study of souls. Thaos realizes that animancy could be used to discover that the gods are fake and decides to discredit it.
About a decade before the game begins, Eothas, the God of Light, invades the Dyrwood. Coincidentally, the Dyrwood is also the country that has the least regulation of animancy. The people of the Dyrwood manage to kill Eothas. Thaos is uninvolved in this conflict, but once it ends, he uses ancient Engwithan machines to disrupt the reincarnation of souls into the Dyrwood, resulting in almost all babies in the country being born Hollowborn, souless beings who do nothing beyond lying down and breathing. The people of the Dyrwood assume that this is their punishment for killing a god and thus rededicate themselves to the gods. Meanwhile, Thaos plans to feed the souls that he stole to Woedica, which will increase her power and allow her to conceal the gods' secrets.
A scientist named Caedman Azo attempts to use animancy to restore the Hollowborn's souls. Azo makes some progress and decides to do a public demonstration. During this public demonstration, Thaos posssesses the Hollowborn child that Azo was attemping to cure, makes her scream in pain, and makes her bash her head against Azo's machine until she dies. The public assumes that Azo's cure tortured the child to the point where she wanted to kill herself.
Meanwhile, a bunch of animancers uncover an ancient Engwithen soul-manipulating devices in a major city district in the Dyrwood's capital. Thaos has Leaden Key agents activate the device in a way that creates a zombie outbreak in the district, making it look as though it was an animancy experiment gone wrong.
Thaos's actions turn the public against animancy to such an extrent that Duc Aevar, the ruler of the Dyrwood, holds hearings to discuss whether to ban animancy in the Dyrwood. The Watcher, having discovered the truth behind the Hollowborn crisis, Azo's failed experiment, and the zombie outbreak, attends the hearing and exposes the Leaden Key to the public. However, Thaos possesses an animancer and uses his body to kill the Duc, causing anti-animancy riots. Unless the Watcher does a good enough job convincing the crowd that animancy is a force for good (which is hard to do without a guide), animancy will be banned in the Dyrwood.
The Watcher pursues Thaos to the temple where he is gathering souls for Woedica, kills him, and looks into his soul to see the moment the gods were created, which puts the Inquisitor's memories to rest. The Watcher then has the choice of destroying Thaos's soul, sending Thaos's soul back into the reincarnation cycle (sans reincarnation superpowers), or imprisoning Thaos's soul forever.
Is he charismatic?
Thaos became a father figure to the Inquisitor and convinced them to betray Iovara, whom the Inquisitor had a very close relationship with (she is either their lover, sister, mentor, or friend depending on your dialog choices). When Lady Webb, a cynical spymaster, met Thaos, she fell in love with him and joined the Leaden Key to be closer to him.
Before the final boss fight, you and your party members can attempt to debate Thaos. He has a comeback for every line of argument that you can make and never shows any doubt that he believes that his methods are correct.
Is he intelligent?
Thaos manipulated nearly the entire world for millenia with only a handful of people even knowing that he exists. The only place that might have been free of his influence is the nation of Yezuha, which is isolated from the rest of the world by unending deadly storms. And give that it's implied that Thaos is responsible for those storms, even Yezuha might be dancing to his strings. And as I mentioned earlier, unless the Watcher accomplishes the Guide Dang It! task of turning the crowd attending the animancy hearings towards keeping animancy legal, then Thaos's plans to outlaw animancy will succeed.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
- Watcher: You denied a generation its place in the world.Thaos: The heart of this country has skipped a beat. Nothing more. I have done far worse. I plunged the peaceful kingdom of Tolosus into civil war. I slew the monarch of Desontio, whose people never knew hardship under his rule, and replaced him with a cruel despot who brought them to ruin. When plague arrived at the great city of Arborensis, I saw to it that the cure did not. They piled their dead outside the city in heaps that rose above their walls.
Thaos led an Inquisition that tortured and executed people just for not believing in his gods. The people of the Dyrwood engaged in religious pogroms in a failed bid to convince the gods to end the Hollowborn crisis, just as Thaos intended. He created a zombie outbreak in the Dyrwood's capital. And he instigated riots so deadly that the entire City of Definace Bay had to be sealed off for days to contain them.
But Thaos does have his redeeming features. For starters, he genuinelly believes that without gods, people will be consumed by endless holy wars. It's implied that he actually genunielly did care for the Inquisitor: not only did Thaos spare the Inqusitor's life after they realized that the gods were most likely fake, but when the Watcher meets Thaos for the first time, Thaos recognizes their soul and for a brief moment, considers giving the Inquisitor the closure they desired.
There's also the situation with Lady Webb. When Webb realized that she would never learn the truth about Thaos, she left the Leaden Key. Ordinarily, the Leaden Key kills deserters, but Thaos let Webb go. It is only when Webb helps the Watcher that Thaos decides that she needs to die. Thaos does the deed himself and the two of them have a cordial chat before he kills her. He even goes so far as to not drink a glass of wine when he learns that Webb set it out for the Watcher, because while he will kill millions in the name of a religion he knows to be false, he won't steal another person's drink.
Verdict:
I'd say he counts.

Now that Dimentio has been approved as a MB I've created a writeup for him.
So what do you guys think?
Edited by ReddishGuy1 on Sep 2nd 2018 at 9:21:59 AM
Just imagine something here.