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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#41776: Mar 21st 2021 at 9:23:16 AM

Happy birthday 43! How old are you turning?

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#41777: Mar 21st 2021 at 9:46:38 AM

[tup] Sinnerman.

Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 21st 2021 at 12:46:48 PM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#41778: Mar 21st 2021 at 9:55:32 AM

Thanks folks, 28 and yes to Sinnerman!

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#41779: Mar 21st 2021 at 9:59:50 AM

Aye to Sinnerman, happy birthday 43!

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#41780: Mar 21st 2021 at 10:20:07 AM

Another unapproved Magnificent Bastard wick I found, this time on the page for The Skywalker Paradigm referring to Obi-Wan Kenobi:

For those who don't know, The Skywalker Paradigm is essentially a series of essays that reinterpret the original trilogy as Rebel propaganda created using historical footage after the fall of the Empire. It's main points are that Darth Vader is a Tragic Hero trying to overthrow the Emperor, and that Obi-Wan is trying to brainwash Luke to kill Vader out of revenge for Vader destroying the Jedi Order.

I recently read through them, and I'm not sure if this is a work conductive to having a Magnificent Bastard. It is mostly a series of personal essays that relies on Alternative Character Interpretation, so I'm not sure an EP would be really conductive here. There's a few points where certain plot points are left up to interpretation, and the majority of Return of the Jedi essay is unfinished.

So, should I go ahead and cut this entry?

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#41781: Mar 21st 2021 at 10:23:23 AM

Well it was unapproved so yes, but that does bring up an interesting point. I feel like handling Unreliable Narrators would be a case-by-case thing. I would concur he probably doesn't count.

Having read some of that page, some of the conclusions are somewhat nonsensical and hilarious (Vader is against weapons of mass destruction and torture).

Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 21st 2021 at 1:23:52 PM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#41782: Mar 21st 2021 at 10:27:43 AM

Happy birthday 43

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#41783: Mar 21st 2021 at 11:22:05 AM

Based on the EP, late [tup] to Chaos. He sounds like a fun villain.

For Aladdin villains, that’s three CM s (one live action) and three MB s.

Time to page Morgenthaler again since its been weeks since each of his candidates were approved?

@43 ARIIA from Eagle Eye is essentially one big circular computer. Would that count as inanimate?

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 21st 2021 at 11:29:20 AM

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#41784: Mar 21st 2021 at 12:44:32 PM

Happy birthday, 43.

[tup] for Deathstroke and Sinnerman.

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#41785: Mar 21st 2021 at 12:58:50 PM

[tup] Chaos, Deathstroke, and Sinnerman.

On the topic of Disney shows I watched Hecate's appearances in Hercules: The Animated Series to see if she counted as a CM or MB since her plans seemed pretty clever on paper and she was described as "worse than Hades." She doesn't count for either, being far too smug about her schemes, and the one thing that might qualify her as worse than Hades—planning to collect the souls of everyone on Earth to increase Underworld efficiency—is a throwaway line and never delved into at all.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#41786: Mar 21st 2021 at 2:15:10 PM

[up][up][up]An AI MB? Makes me think of a candidate DeCarta and I were researching...

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#41787: Mar 21st 2021 at 3:08:43 PM

Alrighty so some quick housekeeping: Ranmaru Mori is listed under Yotoden which I just watched and he gets a little... not so graceful in the last leg of his outing, quite racist towards humans, sadistic and the like. Now, I've confirmed with our pal Lighty that the condensed movie (Wrath of the Ninja) from 1989 does away with this, thanks mostly to condensing the plot and his last fight being focused on just getting shit done. I'm planning on moving him from the "Y's" to "W's" to reflect that but if someone finds I got the wrongly translated title or something please correct me, there are like three different versions of this work and I'm just going by what's on wikipedia.

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#41789: Mar 21st 2021 at 3:47:16 PM

By the way, no one counts in the Justice League Fanscription. Steppenwolf is not charming and a returning Lex does jack and all beyond popping up at the end. Plus it's a sequel to their BvS episode, so the stuff that disqualified him there is still in effect.

However, I plan to do one from the Back to the Future one soon.

Edited by Bullman on Mar 21st 2021 at 6:01:37 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#41790: Mar 21st 2021 at 4:17:58 PM

Agreeing with Bull on no keepers in the Frozen/Tarzan and Justice League ones.

Also, I’m looking forward to the EP on the Back to the Future one as well.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#41791: Mar 21st 2021 at 4:32:31 PM

Oh yeah I forgot to mention the Frozen/Tarzan one. No one counts. The villains literally have no personalities.

Edited by Bullman on Mar 21st 2021 at 6:32:55 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#41792: Mar 21st 2021 at 6:06:37 PM

Does anyone know if there are a bunch of random board game or visual novel keepers? Short pages make 43 sad sad

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#41793: Mar 21st 2021 at 6:08:07 PM

But it's your birthday! You musn't be sad your birthday! We must rectify this!

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#41794: Mar 21st 2021 at 6:13:21 PM

Damn I don't have any board games to see if they have one.

Edited by Bullman on Mar 21st 2021 at 8:14:07 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#41795: Mar 21st 2021 at 6:13:52 PM

Allow me to get in my own Aladdin candidate...Arbutus.

Who is Arbutus?

A powerful sorcerer and nature elemental who resembles a living tree, with knotted limbs and a rose on his heart. Arbutus is an artist who crafts the plants of the world, viewing them as his own children....years ago, the Sultan of Agrabah picked a flower for his wife, enraging Arbutus. To mollify him, the Sultan promised Arbutus his dearest treasure and Arbutus promised to collect in 20 years' time....

Arbutus does indeed come, and effortlessly outwits and manuevers his way around the heroes to claim the Sultan's dearest treasure: Jasmine herself, taking her away to his garden. Taking Jasmine to his garden, he plans to keep her as a possession there. Upon Jasmine objecting, Arbutus goes on a genuine rant, how humans cut down trees, creating smoke to block out the sun and pluck his children from the earth, condemning them to "slow death" in vase. "Your kind, you're all the same! You treat my beautiful living creations as things! Why should I treat you any differently?"

Now, Jasmine ends up managing to reach Arbutus to some extent, convincing him that humans aren't all bad...unfortunately, Aladdin busts his way in, and forces a fight. While Arbutus is invincible, his one weak spot is the rose on his chest...and Aladdin severs it, causing Arbutus to wither and die...Jasmine is horrified and explains Arbutus wasn't a monster, making Aladdin realize he just killed a decent person over nothing...ending as he and Jasmine plant the flower in the ground...with it blooming at the end, implying Arbutus may one day be reborn.

How's he operate?

Surprisingly well. Arbutus isn't given to much by way of combat, but he's able to maneuever around the heroes and uses the old "exact words" gambit for Jasmine, planning to keep her as a bauble of sorts for his garden...the guy's sharp.

But holy hell, Arbutus is maybe the least evil villain on the show. His conviction and love for his plants shines through in every word and deed. Arbutus is genuinely infuriated by how humanity has treated his children. Even his end is firmly tragic and the heroes absolutely regret his death.

Is he a bastard? Too much?

he kidnaps Jasmine to make her a decoration in his garden...but despite this, Arbutus is driven by his love for his plants. He hates the harm humans have caused to them, and he can be reasoned with. His death is played for sheer, unmitigated sorrow by the end. Pass.

Conclusion?

Keeper.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#41796: Mar 21st 2021 at 6:14:43 PM

Naw fam you good. I just wanted to make a joke but I love and appreciate all of y’all and don’t want ya’ thinking I’m actually down. You all do great work, don’t worry about anything smile

[up] Yessir but as per my prior post, we’re gonna pretend like he’s from a VN!

Edited by 43110 on Mar 21st 2021 at 9:15:57 AM

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#41799: Mar 21st 2021 at 6:16:21 PM

[up][up][up] I know, but I like playing along. tongue

[tup] Arbutus.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#41800: Mar 21st 2021 at 6:16:43 PM

Hooray for movement today! Thank you Lighty! I too am sad when the thread moves slowly 43, anyway [tup] Arbutus.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid

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