TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#4126: Aug 29th 2018 at 7:13:03 PM

Yup to Kessler. As for the Bern, it's tempting to vote him up (mainly because I'm trying to view him as a character independent of his IRL counterpart), but I'd rather wait for more people to chime in, cuz I ain't an expert on this predicament.

lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
#4127: Aug 29th 2018 at 7:16:42 PM

[tup]Kessler.

I feel really weird about having a real, still active politician as an example of this trope, especially since mentioning his name is an easy way to start a flame war, but I guess he qualifies. Reluctant [tup] to Bernie.

Edited by lrrose on Aug 29th 2018 at 10:19:32 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#4128: Aug 29th 2018 at 7:57:07 PM

Yes to Kessler and like I said, I'm more comfortable upvoting Bernie for this trope since it's got respectable and positive aspects, unlike a CM portrayal of a real person.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#4129: Aug 29th 2018 at 10:20:52 PM

[tup]kesseler and uh....Bernie

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#4130: Aug 29th 2018 at 10:50:19 PM

I have to ask, should there be an explanation as to where the term Magnificent Bastard came from considering that the Patton doesn't really have a Magnificent Bastard beyond Patton's romantic view upon war and his Worthy Opponent? The quote is still there and it's pretty much impossible to separate it from the trope considering that's where the trope got its name from.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#4131: Aug 29th 2018 at 11:02:34 PM

Uhhhh... Sure to Bernie I guess

Yea on Kessler.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#4132: Aug 30th 2018 at 12:22:54 AM

Well it looks like Kessler's going to be a keeper. I'll give him a write-up tomorrow, but for now I was wonder wether or not Brooke Augustine from Second Son could count. She has shown herself to be very manipulative and cunning and is also a Well-Intentioned Extremist trying to protect her kind, however she's described to have a sadistic streak and is shown to be indifferent to other people's suffering. Any thoughts before I decide to EP her?

Edited by G-Editor on Aug 30th 2018 at 9:24:01 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#4133: Aug 30th 2018 at 1:00:04 AM

[tup] Kessler and... I was tempted to abstain, but I suppose I can [tup] Bernie Sanders as well.

And go ahead with an EP for Brooke, but as I recall, her plans fall apart spectacularly whether you go good or evil. I dunno if she's successful enough to qualify, but perhaps you can prove me wrong.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#4134: Aug 30th 2018 at 7:28:33 AM

A new, interesting example:

What's the work?

A Study in Emerald is a story by Neil Gaiman that blends Lovecraft and Sherlock Holmes...700 years ago? The Old Ones conquered the world and rule it in a benevolent dictatorship, Queen Victoria being one herself. The heroes of the story are a detective and his veteran friend, called in by Victoria to investigate a murder: A Bohemian prince found dead in Whitechapel, with 'RACHE' drawn in blood on the walls...the detective and the doctor investigate the mysterious Rache...and discover a man named Sherry Varnet, who is a noted actor. Our detective friend poses as a theater agent, realizing Varnet is not who he appears and is in fact, the mysterious man behind the Rache murders...

Who is Varnet/Rache?

An anarchist who believes the Old Ones are not benevolent saviors, but inhuman beasts out to exterminate humanity eventually. Imagine that what a madman. Our man Rache lured in the prince with the promise of having abducted a girl from a convent to be procured for him to rape and drain, leading him in....but there was no girl. Just his friend, the doctor, with his knives.

After this, Rache creates the scenario to fool the authorities, and when the good detective hunts Rache down? It turns out Rache knew everything the entire time, deduced perfectly that the detective was not who he appeared to be and deceives him as well, eluding capture with the doctor and faking it so he vanishes The short story ends with Rache delivering a friendly letter to the detective, wishing him well, and claiming Varnet is not his real name. He so enjoyed having a more worthy opponent than the 'inhuman beasts from the pit,' in the end, and promises that he will work to liberate the world.

And who is Rache? Well, as you ay have guessed....Rache is none other than Sherlock Holmes himself. And the good detective and his assistant? Professor Moriarty and Sebastian Moran, in a nice little flip on things.

so what shows he's an MB?

He lures the prince to his death and throughout the novel? He's in control. Perfectly. He's a brilliant anarchist against the order, who sees through Moriarty's attempts to trip him up and spins it back around on him, eludes capture and is audacious beyond belief in the affair. He lies to the Prince, claiming he's procured a virgin girl from a convent to rape and feed on, only to deliver him to John Watson for a good old fashioned Whitechapel style murder. And he even leaves a friendly note to Moriarty, stating his delight at having a worthy opponent.

Is he a bastard? Too much?

The story is basically Holmes in the Moriarty role. He plays the villain and he enjoys it. Now, the fundamental issue? Rache is absolutely right. The Old Ones are not benevolent protectors of humanity. They are monsters. Holmes was correct: the Prince was a serial killing rapist and monster who deserved to die. He states he has seen them violated and drain the minds of their victims. "I have seen them do far worse. It is not the price we pay for peace. It is too great a price for that." That said, he is seeking o tear down an order which will erupt in chaos when it is done. He's ruthless, sure, but his goals are absolutely right.

In the context of the setting and world? I'd say he's just enough of a bastard to keep.

Conclusion?

Easy keep and amazing story that can be read for free legally online.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#4135: Aug 30th 2018 at 7:34:09 AM

[tup]Rache

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#4138: Aug 30th 2018 at 12:14:44 PM

Since you are mostly ok with RW!Bernie being on here I guess I'll give him a [tup] myself. Expect an entry ASAP.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#4139: Aug 30th 2018 at 4:37:47 PM

[tup]Rache.

Also I've decide to forgo doing Brooke's EP, as she made a fatal mistake that , as Polar said perfectly causes her plans to fail spectacularly. After needlessly torturing Delsin's entire tribe with her concrete spikes, she leaves them in the state they are in for them to die a slow and painful death. Given that she took the concrete spikes off Delsin and Hank, she could have done the same with Delsin's tribe. However wether its out of sadism or arrogance she doesn't which causes Delsin to seek her out. Basically if Brooke decided to make the pragmatic move and heal Delsin's tribe, he wouldn't have seek her out and cause her downfall, so yeah, she's a smart villain with well intentions, but that action ultimately prevents her from being a MB.

Now then here's Kessler's write-up:

  • inFAMOUS: Kessler is a version of Cole MacGrath from the future where he lost his entire family from The Beast's rampage. Traveling back in time he forcibly took control of the First Sons where he had them create the Ray Sphere and then giving it to Cole MacGrath, resulting in the latter getting his powers, as well as causing massive collateral damage to Empire City and its eventual quarantine. Setting himself as Cole's nemesis, he tricks Cole into believing he had cause the grim future, manipulates Cole's best friend Zeke into joining his side, and giving Cole a series of Sadistic Choices leading to the death of Cole's girlfriend Trish. Successfully causing Cole to seek vengeance on Kessler, he gives Cole the Ray Sphere to use, before fighting him head on. Upon being defeated, Kessler then reveals to Cole his true identity, as well the existence of The Beast and the destruction he'll bring, admitting that his actions against Cole was to make him stronger so that he'll be able to succeed at stopping The Beast where Kessler himself failed.

Edited by G-Editor on Aug 30th 2018 at 1:43:59 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
V
#4140: Aug 31st 2018 at 6:47:44 AM

[tup] Rache and Kessler.

How do we regard killing children? I know for the most part it is disqualifying, but is it always?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#4141: Aug 31st 2018 at 6:49:17 AM

Given Gaku Yashiro was voted up, no. But it's something I was, shall we say, be very careful on. I mean, Megatron, Cronus and Megabyte have tried to kill kids at various point, but in variations of "they're the heroes, so they gotta go" and less "let's sadistically butcher children for sport."

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#4142: Aug 31st 2018 at 7:48:57 AM

Obito tried to blow up a newborn Naruto...so yeah.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#4143: Aug 31st 2018 at 7:52:41 AM

That’s the least of why he doesn’t count

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#4144: Aug 31st 2018 at 7:52:56 AM

Late yea to Rache.

Gotta love some dem Lovecraftian Horrors. Also, speaking of Lovecraftian Horrors, anyone in Demonbane qualifies @Lightysnake?

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#4145: Aug 31st 2018 at 7:56:05 AM

[up][up]The least of why Obito doesn't count? I thought he was approved?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#4146: Aug 31st 2018 at 8:10:10 AM

Obito was not. I can’t ever see approving him. He’s so ridiculous and immature. And he’s also a complete pawn of a pawn of a pawn. Literally.

As for Demonbane? Therion probably. Great villain.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#4147: Aug 31st 2018 at 8:13:45 AM

[up] Cool... Also, thoughts on Titus, Nya and Nero btw

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#4148: Aug 31st 2018 at 8:24:02 AM

This is from the show's YMNV page:

  • Magnificent Bastard: Obito Uchiha. While Madara was the one who started the Moon-Eye Plan and imparted Obito with the knowledge needed to implement the plan so that he could be resurrected in the future and become a Physical God, Obito in turn decides to use this for his own interests to become a Physical God himself and never had any intention of reviving him. So from the time of Madara's death practically everything was directed by Obito. This includes the manipulation of Nagato and Sasuke, reforming the peace organization Akatsuki into an organization consisting of dangerous criminals, leading this very organization from behind the scenes, and as a bonus he infiltrated his own organization pretending to be and convincing many people that he was silly, goofy Tobi without particular reason except fun. He also managed to deceive the whole world making everyone who met him believe that he was the "true" Madara Uchiha, and pretty much goads the entire world into a war against himself. When his plans start to slowly fall apart because of unforeseen circumstances, he shows very good skills in Xanatos Speed Chess. So when Kabuto put him at a disadvantage threatening to bring back Madara to life and forced him into an unstable alliance, he uses the army Kabuto to his own advantage for the battle with the Alliance and gathering the tools in which to sealed two resurrected shinobi owning Nine-Tails chakra as a fallback in case if he will not be able to catch the remaining Tailed Beasts and to resurrect the Ten-Tails in any case. And even returned from the dead Madara was not able to stop him since he outsmarts him, using Kakashi in order to remove the seal established on his heart and becoming the first man from the time of the Sage of the Six Paths to seal in himself the Ten-Tails and become Physical God.

I haven't seen the discussion but this looks like what an approved write up would look like.

Edited by username2527 on Aug 31st 2018 at 8:26:20 AM

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#4149: Aug 31st 2018 at 9:24:17 AM

I stand by saying that, without the whole Madara debacle and "Obito" reveal, Tobi would've counted.

As it stands? The fact Madara and Kabuto played him like a fiddle on a couple occasions disqualifies his magnificence.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#4150: Aug 31st 2018 at 9:55:55 AM

Agree with Erazor. on Demonbane? Titus...maybe...however, Nya is a no. She is insanely evil and petty, who loves torture and sadism. She's twisted and depraved in every way.

Also, found this, from the YMMV page of Majin Tantei Neugami Neuro: Magnificent Bastard: Neuro on the heroes side

It also lists HAL and Sicks. Sicks is a clear no, far too evil and one of the most depraved complete monsters in a manga imaginable (his intro is skinning a man and wearing him, and punishing a subordinate by forcing him to slice himself open with a rusty saw, telling him "I don't care about a fair punishment. I just want to watch you die.")...but Neuro? Oh god yes. Fantastic example of a Villain Protagonist falling into this.

Btw, anyone think Lucifer from the titular show counts?


Total posts: 82,595
Top