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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#4101: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:41:57 PM

[tup] to Vane and Heavy Object candidates.

@Lighty Say Lighty. Since you're covering Black Sails... Thoughts on Dufrense, Flint and Eleanor?

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#4102: Aug 28th 2018 at 10:16:55 PM

God no to any of them. Dufresne is a little snake with not much likable to him. Flint becomes such a burnt out, hollowed shell of a man by the end who's so self destructive he no longer cares who he takes with him and Eleanor has crippling character flaws, namely her inability to see reality as it is, as opposed to how she wants to see it, that lead her into terrible errors. Vane points out Eleanor has a horrible habit of seeking out people who will feed her preconceptions as opposed to someone who's loyal to her, but honest about her flaws.

MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#4103: Aug 28th 2018 at 10:20:26 PM

While I wait for two more votes on the Alisa Triplets, here's Sogia's draft:

  • Sogia, from Volume 6, was once, Yulenzak, the White Bears leader, a royal guard unit for Princess Staivia Nikolaschka, Dimiksy's sister. Years ago, the White Bears learned of Dimiksy's plans to assassinate Staivia under the guise of a Royal Duel and their assassination of Excelsyla to obtain her Object, Assault Signal, however they were unable to thwart or slow the conspiracy. Deciding to go into hiding to slowly stop this dastardly plan, Sogia and his crew, the White Bears were supposedly completely wiped out by a sudden attack from fake Information Alliance troops from Dimiksy's faction, who attempted to kill them with bombs scattered over their heads. However Sogia and the unit had anticipated the attack, and faked their deaths and became Unicorn in order to thwart Dimiksy in the shadows, having hidden their entire existence altogether. They've also used manipulation to get Qwenthur and Havia reassigned to the islands, so they learn of Dimiksy's plans. They also interfered with the two while they were participating in an operation in the Athabasca District as part of the Background Unit. When Qwenthur and Havia fight Dimiksy and his Broad Sky Saber Object, Sogia and Unicorn raid the Flightburg Air Force Base in order to use the Forest Roller Object against the Sky Saber. Unfortunately, the Roller gets destroyed by Dimiksy's giant laser cannon, who had anticipated the attack. However, the attack revealed the Object's anti-laser beacon. With the help of Sogia, Qwenthur and Havia manage to corrupt the beacon, so the laser destroys both the Sky Saber and Dimiksy, which also saves Staivia in the process.

IPP Wick Check created.
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#4104: Aug 28th 2018 at 10:32:37 PM

@Lightysnake Ah that makes sense... Think Eleanor's flaws is one of the reasons why I hesitated to propose Bunchuu from Houshin Engi. Because I felt that Bunchuu almost suffer the same flaw as her given his Papa Wolf tendencies towards the Yin dynasty. Or I could make a case on him.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#4106: Aug 28th 2018 at 11:04:12 PM

[tup] for Sister Sister

It's Spooky Month!
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#4107: Aug 28th 2018 at 11:29:53 PM

Since the sisters got enough votes, I've added their entry to the drafts, and here it is:

  • In Volume 11, Alisa and her sisters, Rica and Orisa are the three members of the Information Alliance's Martini Series who help Prince Flag Eggnog start the wars between the Vanderbilts and the Winchels, and even assisting him with the drug war and the construction of the Plasma 177 meant to keep him in power. In actuality, they're manipulating Eggnog in order to obtain sample data on nobles for the Perfect Browsing project, a system that would display how to resolve a worldwide crisis by just typing a string of text into a search engine. They start many sample incidents and disasters as possible, preferring to get info from a noble near the top of an enemy world power, using Eggnog because he was so dimwitted to believe them as allies. Near the conclusion of the the Celestial Flowers attack, the sisters contact Flag and reveal their true goals and manipulation before leaving him to his ruin, noting that they'd now obtained sample data on the full-speed collapse of a royal's life, planning to upload it in its entirety for everyone to see, before hanging up on the confused, infuriated prince.

Any modifications and expansions are welcome.

IPP Wick Check created.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#4109: Aug 29th 2018 at 8:01:22 AM

Joseph, since they all just seem to be arc characters do you mind seeing if those can be trimmed? If you feel doing so would clip key bits it’s fine and the sisters are t overly long but just see if you can please.

Also, some old use of the trope scattered throughout various pages:

From A Child Shall Lead Them:

  • Code Geass:
    • Lelouch. Before he turned 19, he already had started the world's largest revolution and took over half of the world. After he lost that half due to betrayal by his subordinates, he then proceeded to take over the other half, then went back and re-conquered the first half. As an eighteen year old, he was the first man to ever rule the entire world. He then proceeded to bring about the first era of true world peace by ordering his own death, at the hands of his equally young Dragon under the mask of Zero, thus leaving the path clear for Nunners becoming the Empress and with said dragon as a prospect Mysterious Protector. How's THAT?
  • Gundam:
    • Haman herself was put in charge of Axis at the tender age of 16, apparently because they thought she'd be easy to control. They were wrong.
  • Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn has Sanaki, the 10- to 13-year-old empress of Begnion. Despite her youth, and love of toying with people for her own amusement, she's one of the few good people in the Begnion ruling government, and is perfectly willing to be and capable of being a Magnificent Bastard to make sure that the senate of evil aristocrats doesn't go around freely causing misery and atrocious war crimes.
  • In 1867, 14-going-to-15 Crown Prince Mutsuhito took over the reins of Imperial Japan after the death of his father. He would be known in history as the one who started the Empire's renovation (for some, a Magnificent Bastard; for others, a Smug Snake with good PR and effective counselors)... Emperor Meiji.

If someone really wants to propose Lelouch go for it but I'll be honest right now, whether or not the plot is aware of how many times he grabs the Idiot Ball I'm almost certain to downvote based on the incompetence of his tactics; Haman has been approved but I don't think we need the reference to a YMMV subject on a main page; I don't remember if Sanaki was one of the many Fire Emblem keepers we got but either way I still don't think we need the reference there; the final example is from Real Life which we already agreed we're not doing as, amongst other things, this trope implies someone is villainous.

From A Day in the Limelight:

  • The Knot of Wool OR Competing Fences arc in Tower of God shows a day in the life of Koon Agero Agnis after the time skip, preparing to scale the next floor of the Tower.
  • The Warrior Cats manga, which all are days in the limelight. So far, they have been given to Graystripe, Scourge, Sasha, Ravenpaw and soon SkyClan and Sol.
  • Revolutions has a habit of using "supplemental" episodes to talk about people from the historical period under discussion who are interesting but whose full stories would distract from the main narrative. Particularly prominent examples include asides on Talleyrand and the Duke of Orléans/Philippe Égalité during Season 3 (on the French Revolution).

Haven't seen any of that stuff but still... references in the main page.

From A Fool for a Client:

Reference on a main page.

From A Lesson Learned Too Well:

Under The Benny Hill Show:

  • Cora learned this one from Rumpelstiltskin, who took her in and taught her magic when she was a poor miller's daughter looking to get even with the haughty nobles who laughed at her. "Don't stop until they're on their knees," he said. Then, she double-crosses him when she gets the chance to become royalty and doesn't need him anymore, taking out her own heart to make sure she can't be blinded by any inconvenient empathy or feelings toward anyone, even her mentor or her daughter. Cora was a weapons-grade sociopath from the start.

Same thing.

From A Lighter Shade of Black:

The first thing is a reference in the description, which I'm fine with but the other is:

  • In the BattleTech novel Bred for War, the assassin responsible for the death of Melissa Steiner-Davion in an earlier book gets this treatment. When a new "revolutionary" government takes over the planet he'd been thinking about going into retirement on, it turns out to be sufficiently nasty that even his disregard for collateral damage in leading La Résistance and his leaving his local girlfriend to be captured and killed as a distraction can't quite quench the admiration for his magnificent bastardry. (It helps that he only reveals his real identity at the end of the subplot — even to the reader.)

Another reference on a non-YMMV page.

From A Lighter Shade of Grey:

  • In Final Fantasy Tactics, one side of the Lion War rallies behind Prince Goltana, the other behind Prince Larg, the church has got its fingers in the conflict, not to mention the Lucavi, and then there's your player group. Out of the two main sides involved in the war, those siding with Prince Larg come out looking more like good guys, in general, by virtue of not having Delita on their side. Out of all groups, though, the player's party comes out looking like the best good guys of all, but whether that's due to the main character's being played or being honestly virtuous is a matter of debate.

We approved Delita but it's another main page reference.

From A Match Made in Stockholm:

  • Ziggzagged in Once Upon a Time: This universe has a version of Beauty And The Beast where Rumplestiltskin is the beast. He lets her go and she wasn't going to come back, but does so to see if True Love's Kiss does revert him to human. It turns out that they do have true love, but the spell doesn't work due to Rumple's cowardice. Their budding relationship goes south very quickly when Belle mentions that she heard of the rumor from a woman on the road… who happens to be Regina. Regina herself actually lampshades this trope while manipulating Belle into attempting to depower Rumple. However, this trope is averted by season two when Belle has more equal footing in the relationship.

Haven't seen it but same thing.

I'll do more later but this is... well, it's fucking boring to sift through. Imma chop these for now.

[down] thanks bro, it's going to be a lot of searching to basically turn up results of 'use in main page entry: cut'

Edited by 43110 on Aug 29th 2018 at 3:50:49 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#4110: Aug 29th 2018 at 11:19:21 AM

I actually think rumple might worth an ep but im not rewatching the seven seasons of once upon a time myself to do it. It was way to painful the first time I saw it.

Also take your time and pace yourself with this. We'll help remove any we find as well to make your job easier.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#4111: Aug 29th 2018 at 12:59:39 PM

On the note of those entries, here are some from Law & Order itself:

  • Magnificent Bastard:
    • Philip Swann from Season 4's "American Dream" and recurring character Governor Don Shalvoy immediately come to mind.
    • The plot of expy-Mary Sue Hubbardnote  to sink her abusive con-man husband and get all his money. It did wind up killing six innocent people, including a child, but it worked: he's stuck in prison for six life sentences and no one can prove she actually meant to kill anyone.

Haven't watched this show at all so I'm going to need some help here. I've cut for now but if anyone wants to EP feel free.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#4112: Aug 29th 2018 at 1:13:06 PM

Its been a bit but I think Swann might count. His plan is pretty good and he even goes pretty defiantly in the end. The only maybe problem is that he doesnt have any redemming qualities (He fails Law and order's heinous standrad before you ask about him qualifying as a CM as he only kills about 2 people).

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#4113: Aug 29th 2018 at 1:30:48 PM

From YMMV.Greg Weisman

I know David Xanatos, Tombstone and two members of the Light (Vandal Savage and Lex Luthor) have been approved but I'm not sure about the rest.

Edited by Silverblade2 on Aug 29th 2018 at 10:30:21 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#4114: Aug 29th 2018 at 1:31:36 PM

I'm inclined to potentially say yes to Nerissa and Thailog there. Ravok has told me he'll EP Norman.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#4115: Aug 29th 2018 at 1:33:16 PM

[up][up]Oddly enough. Most of these guys except Doc Ock and fox actually count.

Edited by miraculous on Aug 29th 2018 at 1:33:24 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#4116: Aug 29th 2018 at 1:36:07 PM

I know that I said I'm staying out of the voting but isn't Norman hideously abusive to his son?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#4117: Aug 29th 2018 at 1:39:43 PM

Uhh hes pretty tame as far as CM's go though. Helps that he's got lots of charisma and chessmastery to offset his awfulness.

[down]Yeah this. Hes bad but nothing to awful that he goes into gross teroritary

Edited by miraculous on Aug 29th 2018 at 1:48:23 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#4118: Aug 29th 2018 at 1:43:19 PM

Norman's a nasty bastard to his son, but nothing so awful that he would be automatically disqualified. He frames him and breaks his leg and tries to mould him in his image, but nothing bad enough for us to say no outright. But we shall wait for the fated EP.

I believe Ravok will bring it to us. But let us be patient, friends, for that hallowed day.

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#4119: Aug 29th 2018 at 1:59:51 PM

Well admittely compared to Kyrun Ragyo, Ozai, Aku's priestess...

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#4120: Aug 29th 2018 at 2:37:09 PM

Alright, in what is LONG overdue? My remaining MB write-ups.

  • Beware the Batman:

    • Deathstroke, real name Slade Wilson, was once a CIA agent who was booted after his excessive cruelty in the name of protecting his country. Becoming a mercenary for hire soon after, Deathstroke pulled off flawless operations before eventually using his amassed resources to target his former mentor, and the man who got him fired from the CIA, MI 6 agent Alfred Pennyworth. Framing Batman as a villain and seemingly murdering Bruce Wayne, all while masquerading as Dane Lisslow, Deathstroke handily tricks the Dark Knight into lowering his guard in a duel by faking his motivations, and later breaks into the otherwise impenetrable Batcave, captures both Batman and Alfred, and prepares to force the latter to watch as he murders Batman before him as a final vengeance against his former mentor for ruining his life.

    • Anarky is Batman's Arch-Enemy, and a chaos-loving mastermind intent on enabling people to "free" themselves from the binds of morality and order. Introducing himself to Gotham by becoming a "patron" to two thugs and turning them into supervillains, Anarky later steals the comatose body of Ra's Al Ghul to coerce the League of Assassins into stealing a chemical compound for him, only to reveal he's tricked them into unleashing a plague onto Gotham. Allying with and corrupting District Attorney Harvey Dent while consistently masking his true schemes even to Batman, Anarky succeeds in driving Dent into evil and happily accepts his eventual defeat by Batman, simply proclaiming he's ready to "play again" before enacting his next plans to unlock every door in Gotham and enable the citizens a night of debauchery and anarchy.

    • Ra's Al Ghul is the leader of the League of Assassins. An immortal warrior who has toppled civilizations over the centuries, Ra's currently uses the mercenary Cypher to mind control scientists into creating the Ion Cortex, tricking the Wayne Foundation into funding the project. Using the Cortex, Ra's knocks out power in Gotham, murders anyone who stands in his way, and plans to strong-arm the leaders of the city into allowing the League to set up shop in Gotham as their new base of operations. Controlling the League through sheer charisma and intimidation, Ra's handily defeats any opponents in combat, notices the most minor errors in his plans and orders them immediately corrected, and nearly took over Gotham City in the matter of a few days, all to enable his growing plan to wipe out what he deemed to be irredeemable crime and filth in the world.

  • Trigun:

    • Millions Knives is a humanoid plant who was driven to misanthropy upon discovering humanity had performed horrifying experiments on his own kind. Even as a child manipulating the "Great Fall," an event where he caused an entire fleet of humanity to crash to their deaths on the planet Gunsmoke, Knives in the present seeks revenge on both humans and his twin Vash for allying with them. Siccing the Gung-Ho Guns onto Vash to distract and torment him by targeting innocents, Knives traverses Gunsmoke and influences other Plants to merge with him, making him all the stronger as he reveals his final plan to lure the final vestiges of humanity to Gunsmoke, wipe them all out, and use their Plant captives to create a new, peaceful world of nature and flourishing life. Upon being defeated and witnessing humanity realize the error of their ways, Knives saves his brother's life and spends his last moments granting a poor family a bountiful apple tree as the only recompense for his atrocities he is able to perform.

    • Legato Bluesummers from the anime sheds his manga counterpart's Laughing Mad insanity and numerous breakdowns, instead being a suave, always calm mastermind who serves as Vash's true Arch-Enemy in the series. A nihilist with the belief that all of humanity meaningless and deserves to be purged to save it from misery and despair, Legato allies with Millions Knives in preparing for the destruction of humankind and the rising of Plant life. Not entirely devoid of respectable attributes even as he sends the Gung-Ho Guns after Vash with orders to target civilians in the process just to torture the pacifistic hero, Legato slaughters a group of human traffickers and frees their slaves, informing the young women to use their time wisely before Knives wipes them all out. In the end, Legato forces Vash to break his Thou Shalt Not Kill code, giving him the ultimatum of either shooting Legato or watching as his best friends are murdered by the villain, and dies with a smile on his face as he knows the act of taking a human life will drive Vash into utter despair.

    • Gasback Gallon Getaway is a roguish, boisterous criminal who, despite his brutish appearance, is in truth a calculating thief who views the act of robbery and thievery as "art" forms. After his initial bank heist is foiled by treacherous minions, Gasback spends decades plotting both revenge against the men for "sullying" the art of robbery with their dishonorable betrayal, and the greatest heist he's ever concocted. Laying waste to two of the men's prospering enterprises, Gasback repeats the process on his final betrayer, revealing at the same time that each of his before robberies were all to amass materials needed to steal a Plant, which he pulls off flawlessly before escaping. Giving Vash one of the hardest fought battles of his life through sheer determination to never lose, Gasback gains respect for the hero when beaten, and is revealed to have spent those decades of planning taking care of a woman he loved and even leaving her enough money to sustain her for the rest of her life. Always charming even with his loud personality, Gasback was undoubtedly the most swashbuckling villain Vash ever faced.

  • Batman: The Telltale Series: Lady Arkham, real name of Victoria Arkham AKA "Vicki" Vale, is the charming, strategic leader of the Children of Arkham, a terrorist organization seeking absolution for the crimes committed against them by the higher society of Gotham City. A victim of abuse who lost her parents at a young age thanks to Thomas Wayne's corruption, Arkham spent her childhood plotting revenge and making schemes, and upon adulthood, puts these into action as she rallies the otherwise peaceful Children of Arkham and radicalizes them into a military force. Utilizing an insanity drug to drive mayor Harvey Dent mad—injecting the serum into the other candidate in the process as a precaution—Arkham uses her public guise to masterfully manipulate the situation to seem as though the Children of Arkham are heroes, driving Bruce Wayne himself temporarily insane and getting him thrown into Arkham Asylum. When her master plan to flood the streets with her insanity drug fails, Arkham initiates her backup plan to raid Arkham Asylum and free the dozens of inmates as a final "justice" against the corrupt Asylum's checkered past.

  • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: The man once known as Alveus, upon Kree experimentation, was forever transformed into "Hive." Through sheer intellect and force of will, Hive drove the Kree from earth, rallying all Inhumans to his side in the process, and though banished from earth by treacherous followers, Hive nonetheless laid the groundwork for the formation of HYDRA, the death cult organization that has haunted the world for centuries after. In the present, Hive manipulates himself back to earth with help from Gideon Malick, and immediately amasses a small following of Inhumans. Using Malick before murdering him once he outlives his usefulness, Hive stays one step ahead of SHIELD throughout the series, even turning Daisy Johnson to his side and using her as a mole. Though driven temporarily insane, Hive is revealed to have exaggerated even this as a plot to be captured then use SHIELD's own devices to enact his final plan of turning a chunk of humanity into Inhumans so as to create a perfect, peaceful paradise. Hive's final moments are spent calmly reflecting that he truly wanted what was best for Inhumans, and dies realizing and admitting that perhaps humanity isn't as deserving of destruction as he once thought.

And secondly, I will indeed be putting up Norman in the coming days...perhaps as early as tonight if time permits. As has been said? Norman's villainy never reached absolutely grotesque levels, and his intelligent charm besides completely matches up to—if not surpassing—his bastardy credentials.

Edited by Ravok on Aug 29th 2018 at 5:42:48 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#4121: Aug 29th 2018 at 2:57:21 PM

Ok I have a character that is the portrayal of a real life figure in an alternate history setting I feel fits the bill for magnificent bastard. However I have some concerns about an effortpost:

Here are my concerns

  • The real life incarnation of the character is far from the "bastard" title as possible
  • There is also another character in the mod that is a portrayal of a real person in this work that hits all the qualifications for CM, but I've decided not to effortpost said person on the CM thread because of how controversial the effortpost will be(let's just say that this person is a politician leading a country right now and is not necessarily viewed as a tyrant or a maniac of any sort) and I've been advised not to do this thing.

So should I effortpost this character(the MB effortpost not the CM one), please note this is not in real life but for a portrayal of this figure in the work he appears in

Edited by xie323 on Aug 29th 2018 at 3:01:40 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#4122: Aug 29th 2018 at 3:20:46 PM

Hmm... while I'd say exercise caution and be sure it's not an outright offensive portrayal, I'll cut a bit more slack with this one than with CM, since it's essentially a trope that says, "evil but brilliant and suave" as opposed to "pure evil". Lighty put up Fu Manchu who is notably a racist caricature but this is a trope that draws much more respect and 'coolness', so we're more lenient.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#4123: Aug 29th 2018 at 5:46:47 PM

Ok here goes. This will probably be a controversial effort post, possibly the most controversial effortpost here.

What is the work?

Red World is a Game Mod for the World War II simulator Hearts of Iron IV. It envisions a Alternate History where the Soviet Union won the Cold War and the United States fractured as a result. Some of the new nations to emerge from the collapse of the US include a pro-Soviet Communist nation in the West Coast called the United American People's Republic, the Midwest Union, a reborn Texan Republic, a independent Hawaii, the Neo-Nazi states of Montana and the Union of Lincoln, as well as an anti-Soviet Communist nation in the East coast called the American People's Commonwealth. The remnants of the former USA still exist, and they control most of the Southern states.

The American People's Commonwealth is the result of the rise of an independent socialist movement in the core Northeast of the United States rising up after the collapse and installing a popular new government espousing Revolutionary Socialist rhetoric aimed at both the failures of capitalism and the perceived oppressiveness of the Soviet Union. This movement, however, was not a very cohesive one, and to this day the government of the Commonwealth remains a messy institution of tenuous left-unity between a wide range of ideologies. Patriotism is high thanks to a mass reinterpretation of many American icons for this different ideological definition of freedom, which is why the Commonwealth embraces many symbols of 1776 and the old USA like having the capital in Philadelphia and still proudly using red, white, and blue as state colors, but the political gridlock is real and intense between two general ideological camps: the more democratic and libertarian Old Guard which led the initial revolution but somewhat naively wrote extreme powers into existence on the assumption they would never be used, and the more authoritarian New Guard which has grown up after the collapse and is inclined to emulate the Soviet Union and even seek diplomatic ties between the APC and the Warsaw Pact.

The individual state governments making up the APC are completely undemocratic, functioning via decrees from a virtually unchallenged governor with few federal oversight measures. This has escalated to the point where state governors actually pick their successors who can only really be challenged by rare interventions from the Central Committee or local trade councils. Governor powers have expanded due to a lack of specified limitations in the constitution and it's generally at that local level where one can observe authoritarian nightmare practices like state media and strong censorship offices.

Essentially the govenrment is a mess. The Central Committee dominated by the rising New Guard wants to see government authority reinforced and enhanced with greater efficiency, basically embracing the authoritarianism of the USSR with new vigor. President Chomsky, meanwhile, supports direct democratic measures and restoring the trade councils to their democratic status while curtailing the Central Committee and state governors. And then there's the Moderate Socialist grassroots, who would prefer a shift to social democratic values and the restoration of American-style democracy, but the preservation of much of the socialist economics of the APC.

Aside from the various factions dominating APC politics, there are also fringe groups, an underground pro-Soviet Communist party, as well as various Neo-Nazi terror cells, including one led by Mike Pence(I'm serious here) plaguing the APC government. One of these Neo-Nazi terror cells launch a terror attack on the World Trade Center, which is still standing in this timeline, on May the 1st. All of a sudden the political situation comes to a head, as both the Central Committee and President Chomsky make moves against each other using the failure to prevent the attacks as a pretext. The victor is dependent on the player choice. If Chomsky wins the power struggle, the APC becomes a decentralized, democratic and anarchist society. If the Committee wins, then they get their soviet-style dictatorship, achieve diplomatic ties with Moscow, and proceed to reunify all of the US. If the wrong choices are made in suppressing the far right terrorism in the months leading up to the 5/1 incident, it is possible for the Neo-Nazis to seize control of the government and install Pence as the leader of a Fascist theocracy.

However, Chomsky, the committee, and Pence are not the only forces vying for power in this struggle. There is another contender....the very same man who gave the far right the power to launch terror attacks on the WTC, and is using the political chaos to seize control.

Who is he?

Vermont Governor Bernie Sanders.

Yes, I'm not making this up. Simply google up Bernie Sanders red world or look at the trope page for Red World

(I will suggest you listen to this music on repeat as you read the rest of the EP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=26&v=eduwBgDcMwY)

In 1990, some time after the dissolution of the United States, Bernie was on a goodwill trip to socialist Portugal on Chomsky's advice. While he was away however, the then governor of Vermont ordered the mass execution of various political opponents. Among the victims of this purge was Bernie's entire family. While Chomsky leaped into action on his friend's behalf calling for the governor's resignation and trial before the Central Committee, Bernie's faith in the traditional leadership and democracy as a whole has been shattered forever.

Bernie abandoned democratic socialism that day in favor of a warped ideology combining American ultranationalism, the totalitarianism of Stalinism, and the Trotskyist desire to spread the "revolution" as far as possible. He vowed revenge and sought to destroy the APC government, and transform it to a new regime reflecting his new ideology. To this end he armed far right terrorist movements with the means to destroy the WTC and infiltrated the pro-democracy grassroots in the APC.

One of the options the player can take after 5/1 is to fire the New York governor for incompetence. This rallies a large pro-democratic movement against the APC government, which is co-opted by Sanders in a charismatic speech where he promises a "political revolution" to restore democracy. This grassroots movements grows to include conservative rebels and even some members of the banned Communist party. This massive wave of support allows Bernie to be appointed as part of the Central Committee. Sanders then exploits the factional divides between Chomsky and the New Guard, and drawing on grassroots and worker support, gains more and more power; appointing his supporters into positions in the government. He then uses this momentum to create the Socialist party and run for the presidency of the APC.

Bernie wins the election by a landslide, but before inauguaration, information is given to APC politician William Gates(the same Bill Gates) that Sanders provided the means for the Neo-nazi attack on the WTC. Depending on player choices, Sanders could either be exposed and executed by beheading, or he could evade Gates, send an assassin to kill Gates, and pin the assassination on US remnants, starting a retaliatory war in response. Alternatively Gates does nothing and saves his skin...but Sanders launches his retaliatory war anyways.

Assuming Sanders safely makes it into the presidency, he calls for the arrest of many pacifists and elements of the pro-democracy forces, denouncing them as traitors despite their support of him. He organizes a massive nationwide conscription, and arrests various Trade Council leaders in charge of the APC economy. He launches propaganda campaigns to discredit all his enemies in the APC government and the dissolution of congress. With this done, Sanders proclaims himself dictator of the Greater American Union. He then purges everyone tied to the Chomsky administration and the New Guard, and demolishes the former capital of Philadelphia to create something new in it's stead. If he won the war vs. the remnants, he arrests their leaders and executes them. He also establishes a massive cult of personality and seeks to spread his "revolution" across all North America in order to form his own socialist union: the North American Union.

If he consolidates power however....it's not all that bad. He offers significant support to rebuilding crumbled infrastructure across America. He also allows freedom of religion and guarantees fair wages for all and provides significant support to farmers. This shows that despite being a totalitarian dictator, his rule is not a wholly nightmarish one.

Eventually, Bernie dies of a heart attack and the power struggle starts again, this time it could result in transition to power to his handpicked sucessor, the Trotskyist Jeff Mackler, or alternatively the National Syndicalists or the pro-Soviet faction of the new order. Alternatively it is possible for pro-democratic, hard-right or religious fundamentalist(through not as fascistic as Pence's gang) movements to take over.

How do his actions show he’s a Magnificent Bastard?

This incarnations of Bernie Sanders plays everyone, from Neo-Nazis to Chomsky and his loyalists, to democratic activists and even his own base as fiddles to achieve his own political goals. He uses charisma co-opt the pro democracy movements and uses them to further climb up the ranks of the APC government and manipulates existing tensions between Chomsky and the New Guard to gain more political influence as part of the Central Committee. The narrative presents these efforts as immensely successful.

How much of a bastard is he? Is he too evil?

He's a willing to use outright Neo Nazis to achieve his own political goals and he engineers a terrorist attacks leading to the deaths of thousands. He establishes a brutal totalitarian regime with mass purges and is a warmonger willing to spread his twisted brand of "socialism" combining elements from both Stalin and Trotsky's ideologies along with American ultranationalism. So he's quite the bastard.

But is he too evil for this trope? I don't think so. His motives are presented by the narrative as sympathetic and he genuinely thinks he's avenging his family by establishing the Greater American Union dictatorship. The execution of the New Guard is at least presented as justified by the narrative. He is actually presented as doing a fair good as Supreme Leader by rebuilding infrastructure, helping farmers and providing fair income for all and allowing for freedom of religion. And while he used Neo Nazis to achieve his political goals, he is not a Politically Incorrect Villain—the narrative presents him as being disgusted by the implied actions of Richard Spencer and the rest of the leadership of the Union of Lincoln if the GAU invades the Uo L, so it's clear he does not agree with the ideologies of the two Neo Nazi warlord states and various terrorist organizations operating in the former United States.

Any other mitagating factors?

Ok here's what makes this EP controversial. Bernie Sanders himself is a real politician in the United States government, and a popular one among the youth. This mod has been known to play fast and loose with actual political figures still alive: You can make Bashar Al-Assad the king of a new Assyrian empire, have the Washington family rule the USA remnants as kings and the same with the Roosevelt or Kennedy families for New England if New England rebels from a Central Committee dominated APC. You can also crown Putin Tsar of Russia and restore the Roman Empire as a Neo-fascist Italy. Both Mike Pence and Theresa May are presented as outright Neo Nazis, with May's portrayal in this mod actually hitting all the qualifications for CM with the only reason I never considered her incarnation in Red World for an effortpost on the CM thread being the controversy of effortposting a leader of a democratic nation being presented as pure evil.

However, there are things that may make this EP less controversial than a hypothetical effortpost on the CM thread. Essentially magnificent bastard is trope that says, "evil but brilliant and suave" as opposed to "pure evil", which may draw less controversy than a CM effortpost, but I don't know.

Furthermore, there is no political agenda by the creator of Red World to smear the real Bernie Sanders. Sanders' rule is actually portrayed as not that unplesant and he's portrayed as a Tragic Villain and a Well-Intentioned Extremist. So I wouldn't say this is an purporsely offensive portrayal done because the author hates the real Bernie sanders.

Verdict:

I will leave it up to you to decide if he fits the trope, dosen't because he simply dosen't make the cut or dosen't because it's just too controversial, given the controversy.

Edited by xie323 on Aug 29th 2018 at 7:52:44 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#4124: Aug 29th 2018 at 5:57:03 PM

I guess I'll give a [tup] to Bernie (Hey I was going to vote for him as president before the final candidates were announced, but this isn't the time or place to talk about that)

Moving on, I’ve got a candidate from inFAMOUS.

What’s the Work?

inFAMOUS is an an action-adventure video game developed for the Play Station 3. It revolves around Cole McGrath who, after getting caught in the center of an explosion that devastates several city blocks of the fictional Empire City, finds himself with new electricity-based super powers. Cole has the choice to use his new found powers for good or evil. Either way, he comes into contact with this bad boy. Introducing Kessler.

Who Is He? What Has He Done?

Kessler is the Big Bad of this game who also happens to the future self of Cole MacGrath from an alternate timeline. Coming from a timeline where Kessler had a normal life with a wife and two daughters, but all that came to a halting end with the arrival of The Beast, who destroyed his family and destroyed the city he lived in. Feeling grief for his loss and believing that this tragedy could have been avoided, Kessler uses his power to travel back in time.

Arriving in the past Kessler joined the organization known as, The First Sons, and latter takes complete control of the organization from Richard Tate and his son Ulden. Using the resources of the First Sons Kessler created the Ray Sphere, an extremely powerful orb capable of giving someone the power capable of defeating the Beast.

Kessler decides to give the Ray Sphere to his younger self Cole, claiming it to be a courier job for him. He then activates the Ray Sphere once Cole gets his hands on it, causing an explosion that damaged most of the Historical District of Empire City. This resulted in Cole getting his own power along with everyone else in the blast radius, as well as allowing the First Sons to personally control the Historical District and having Empire City be quarantined, which basically brings the entire city under Kessler’s control.

Believing he needed to be Cole’s nemesis, so that Cole will be strong and ruthless enough to take on The Beast, Kessler first appears in Cole’s eyes where he showed him a dark and grim future making Cole believe him to be the culprit.

He also manipulates Cole’s best friend Zeke into helping him on the pretense that he’ll give Zeke super powers. So Zeke give Kessler the whereabouts of Cole’s Love Interest Trish, in which Kessler proceeds to kidnap her.

He then contacts Cole and tells him that he has Trish and that unless he rescues a series of civilian that Kessler has also kidnapped, he will kill Trish. As Cole rescues all of the civilians, Kessler give Cole one last choice; save Trish despite and sacrifice the six doctors the Kessler has also held hostage or save the six doctors that can help people inside the quarantined city, but let his Love Interest die. Regardless in which choice Cole makes, Trish dies in both scenarios since she was also one of the six doctors, leaving Cole emotionally scarred and vowing vengeance on Kessler.

With Kessler’s plan almost coming into fruition, he decides to give Cole the Ray Sphere as well as the choice to either use it or destroy it. Wether Cole decides to use it or destroy it, he would then meet up with Kessler and fight each other, with Kessler believing that this intense brawl would be enough to give Cole the final strength to prepare Cole in facing The Beast.

Once Cole defeats Kessler, the latter uses the last of his strength to show Cole, Kessler’s life, struggles, the looming threat of The Beast, and the fact the Kessler is in fact Cole. Kessler then dies, with Cole lamenting that while he may hate Kessler for what he’s done, he now understands the reasons behind Kessler’s action, and promises Kessler that he’ll be ready to take on The Beast.

Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?

Given that Kessler’s a scientist that created the Ray Sphere, he’s going to has intelligence. Aside from being a gifted scientist, he’s also a skilled mastermind, as he orchestrated the event that gave Cole his powers and caused Empire City to be quarintined, and the forthcoming events that will shape Cole’s life into becoming that perfect soldier in stopping The Beast, including Kessler’s own death.

As for Charisma, Kessler is also a master manipulator who manages to manipulate a secret society that existed throughout centuries into giving him leadership of their organization and create the Ray Sphere for him. He also manipulates the likes of Sasha and Zeke into his helping his plan, by exploiting the latter’s desires to have powers and become just like Cole. He also never looses his cool, only expressing mild annoyance if Cole decides to destroy the Ray Sphere, and is shown to be just as powerful as Cole, if not more so.

Its with all these factor that Kessler’s plan in making Cole stronger and more ruthless succeeds.

What’s The Competition Like?

Kessler’s the smartest villain in the game, with Sasha being a Psycho Ex-Girlfriend obsessed with Kessler and later Cole and Ulden Tate who spends the majority of his screen time throwing a tantrum on how Kessler usurp his father and left Ulden in the streets to fend for himself.

Kessler is arguably the smartest villain in the inFAMOUS series. Other villains in said series include The Beast himself but seems to rely more on his immense powers rather than intellect like Kessler. There’s also Joseph Bertrand III of 2 but he's a hateful Boomerang Bigot of the south and a listed CM, so that basically kills the magnificence for Joseph. Brooke Augustine of Second Son also quite cunning and manipulative herself with Well Intentions behind her actions, but also has a sadistic streak that may or may not prevent her form qualifying. Then there’s Shane of First Light whose as far from this trope has can get being a smug, cowardly, hick who like Joseph is listed as a CM and is racist to Conduits (that’swhat the super-powered people are called)

Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?

Let get this cleared, he forcibly took over an organization left a boy to fend for himself in the streets had a girlfriend that he dumped (who wasn’t really that sane to begin with) created a Weapon of Mass Destruction and used it to create an explosion causing massive damage, kills the hero’s Love Interest, put other people in harms way, and gives Cole one hell of a fight. So I believe that he’s quite the bastard.

That said everything that Kessler has done was to prepare Cole in facing an even greater threat known as the Beast. Kessler had loved ones that he lost which gives him sympathy behind his actions, and his reason for killing Trish right in of Cole is because of how much Trish meant to Cole as Kessler is Cole and Trish was Kessler wife, and he believed that killing Trish would help Cole Harden as a character.

Final Verdict?

I’ll leave that to you guys?

Edited by G-Editor on Aug 29th 2018 at 3:11:41 AM

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