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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

DrakeClawfang Since: Apr, 2010
#4076: Aug 27th 2018 at 6:15:50 AM

Write-up for Magnetp

  • Magneto, real name Erik Lehnsherr, is a Holocaust survivor who believes mutants will suffer the same injustices unless they strike first to establish mutant superiority. Using his charisma and promises of freedom and acceptance to rally like-minded mutants to his side, Magneto forms the Brotherhood of Mutants with the goal of seeking mutant dominance over the world through any means necessary, even if he must cause the mass death or forced mutation of multiple humans. Yet he is calm, affable, and soft-spoken, regarding Charles Xavier as an old friend despite their ideological differences, and willing to work with the X-men against threats to all mutantkind when they arise. Between his careful plotting, his powerful mutant abilities, and his willingness to go as far as he must to ensure mutantkind's safety from humans, Magneto repeatedly demonstrates himself the most complex and competent foe Xavier and the X-men would ever face.

Edited by DrakeClawfang on Aug 27th 2018 at 9:55:19 AM

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#4077: Aug 27th 2018 at 6:50:53 AM

^ Maybe mention his name as well, aka Erik Lehnsherr?

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#4079: Aug 27th 2018 at 3:19:58 PM

Okay guys I’ve got a candidate from The Boondocks that might or might not qualified so I decided to just EP him here to see what the forum thinks. Since I’ve said what the work was a while back I’ll just get straight to the candidate. Introducing Rollo Goodlove.

Who Is He? What Has He Done?

Reverend Rollo Goodlove is an African-American left-wing activist whose more interested in money and publicity, than actually advancing any causes.

First appearing in in the Season 2 episode “The S-Word” he manages to convince the Freeman family to sue Reily’s teacher Mr. Petto for using a “racial slur” at Reily (basically calling Reily The N-word). This caused Rollo to complicate things further and turn this into a political debate and prolonging it by getting Ann Coulter to pretend to be his political rival. It ended with Mr. Petto only having to be suspended from teaching for a while, much to the dismay of the Freeman who were hoping to get money out of him, but Rollo doesn’t care since he managed to succeed getting a lot of publicity and making a lot of money out of it, which was his real plan in the first place.

He appears again in “The Hunger Strike” where he convinces Huey Freeman to go on a hunger strike so they can pull BET himself claiming to have been a “victim” of the networks publicity. However just like with the previous issue this was all just a ploy to get more publicity and money by exploiting Huey’s Hunger Strike and abandons Huey’s cause once BET offers Rollo his own TV Sitcom, which is what Rollo was really trying to get.

He later appear in the series finale “The New Black” where he comes to “defend” the Freeman family against the gay rights community after Reily calls a dance “gay” again trying to get more money and publicity. Rollo was able to convince the public that Reily is a special needs kid who uses the word “gay” to describe something that he doesn’t like, successfully changing their opinions and turning their ire. This works in Rollo’s favor and against the leader of the gay rights community accusing him as a discriminator against the disabled. However the leader of the special needs right community, comes and says Riley must participate in the special needs run and have his picture taken or they’ll extort money from the Freemans for exploiting them. Rollo has no problem with that and has Riley participate, but when Riley refuses to do so and says the R-word, the people with special need become infuriated with Riley for saying such a word and chase him. So in the end Riley participates anyway, gets his picture taken and Rollo gets everything he wants.

Is He Intelligent? Is he Charismatic?

For intelligence Rollo is a skill mastermind and manipulator. He know a lot about politics and public opinion and is able to use this knowledge to sway the people to his side. He also orchestrates many political debates, such as the one with Ann Coulter, to help his cause, making money and getting publicity. Even when people go off his script such a Riley still saying the dance he saw was “gay”, Rollo doesn’t loose his cool and suaveness at all and once notices Robert saying his grandson is a special needs kid Rollo exploits that saying Riley is a special needs kid who uses the word “gay” to describe things he doesn’t like, successfully thinking on the fly and turning things into Rollo’s favor.

For Charisma, not only is Rollo charming in-universe where he able to sway hoards of people to his side, but Cee Lo Green’s suave performance has made his a very popular and likable character for the audience and fanbase.

What’s The Competition Like?

Really the only person that I can think of that comes close to Rollo’s intelligence, charisma, and accomplishment is Ed Wuncler I. That said I’m aware why the forum claimed Wuncler didn't qualify (EP him a while ago) since Wuncler was meant to be hated for his cruel acts. That said, Rollo never stoops to Wuncler’s level, and is actually a very enjoyable character to watch.

Is He A Bastard? Is He Too Much of A Bastard?

Lets get one thing clear, Rollo only uses his status as a liberal activist to give himself tons of publicity and money, exploit any political movement for his own selfish goals, and quickly abandons any cause when it no longer suits him, a such when he abandons Huey’s Hunger Strike the moment BET gives Rollo his own TV sitcom.

That said Rollo himself is actually a pretty laid back guy holding no ill will to anyone he exploits. Rollo himself is never a Politically Incorrect Villain and actually gets along quite well with lots of people regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, and disabilities, among these people include the Freeman family. Plus there are many villains in the show that are far worse than Rollo, which only adds to Rollo’s credibility as a likable antagonist.

Final Verdict?

I’ll leave that to you guys!

Oh and while you're voting Here's a little song you all can listen to.

Edited by G-Editor on Aug 27th 2018 at 8:41:38 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#4080: Aug 27th 2018 at 9:27:38 PM

[tup]Roll

Doing this on Jackie's behalf, also my first MB EP, all in the style of an interview:

Heavy Object Candidate 1:

Master Joseph: Jackie, what's the work?

  • therealjackieboy: Heavy Object is an ongoing Light Novel series by Kazuma Kamachi that stars Havia and Qwenthur, two idiot rookie soldiers who are tasked to destroy the titular Objects; giant war mecha designed for destruction.

Joseph: Who is Nyarlathotep, who appeared in Volume 10, What makes him a candidate?

  • Jackie: Nyarlathotep, real name unknown, is a former member of the Capitalist Enterprise intelligence group Outer Gods, a cabal of spies who treated each other like family. As a spy, he has gotten multiple plastic surgery, and has faked his death numerous times. Once their leader/former friend, Azathoth, retired to become a member of the 7th Cores ruling the Capitalist Corporation, Nyarlathotep decided to hypnotize himself to forget his skills in order to become a family man residing in the peaceful Soberania District. The volume involves Nylarly starting psychological warfare between various factions in order to start the Gigant Hustler, an event showcasing giant Object fighting each other. During the Gigant Hustler, Nyarlathotep infiltrated the battlefield and engineered a water leak from an underground vein, disrupting the Baby Magnum's movements and affecting the flow of the battle. This was all to lure Azathoth to the event. Once the event is cancelled, with Azathoth's Object defeated, Azathoth heads to his limo to plan an attack in order to divert attention away from him... only for Nyarly to reveal himself as Azathoth's driver, taking him to the remains of the Soberania District, showing him what he's done to his once great city and family. Nyarly kills Azathoth by stuffing him in a barrel, filling it with rocks and an adhesive with his head above the surface. As the adhesive set it expanded, gradually squeezing his body until he died of shock. Once this was discovered, a war almost started between every faction. Afterwards, Nyarlathotep is subjected to a farcical military trial by the Legitimacy Kingdom in order to avert war with the Capitalist Corporations. He then killed the assassin sent to silence him in his cell and faked his death once again, before departing to elsewhere.

Joseph: What's his competition?

  • Jackie: Against Alisa and her two sisters? He is definitely more sympathetic compared to them despite his questionable actions, but he has a number of resources by his side. Helps that he is also a master strategist. He is a master spy who manages to get by because of his wits and skills. No one else in the novel is as good or masterful as him.

Joseph: Does his intelligence stand out?

  • Jackie: Yog-Sothoth is not as intelligent as him, and the other characters in the novel are nowhere near as tactical as him.

Joseph: Is he charming & charismatic?

  • Jackie: He is, despite his odd face as a result of too much plastic surgery. While reading the story, I couldn't believe that his plan got off without a hitch (in a good way, of course). You are actively rooting for him, especially when you find out about what Azathoth did to his family.

Joseph: Is he a Chessmaster? Manipulative bastard? Capable of Xanatos Speed Chess?

  • Jackie: He is definitely a chessmaster, carefully strategizing his plans, all of which went off without any problems. As for manipulative, I guess. He acts in the shadow, with the reader witnessing his plans, not making a physical appearance until Azathoth is in his car. He is indeed capable of XSC, as he defended himself against an assassin sent to kill him while he was in his cell at the end, and even faked his own death immediately after, making a grand escape.

Joseph: Is he a bastard? Too much?

  • Jackie: He is a bastard in that he was willing to start a mega war and have some people possibly killed in order to get revenge. Not too much, as he does love his family.

Joseph: Your conclusion?

  • Jackie: Keeper

IPP Wick Check created.
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#4081: Aug 27th 2018 at 10:44:42 PM

I think I'll give a yes to the Priest and Nyarly (Finally a Crawl of Chaos incarnation that doesn't count as a CM other than Nyaruko). Anyone else wants to weigh in? Forum seems ded recently :/

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#4082: Aug 27th 2018 at 10:45:39 PM

[up] Actually, it’s a human who’s code name is Nyarlathotep, who I will say [tup]

Edited by therealjackieboy on Aug 28th 2018 at 12:17:59 PM

It's Spooky Month!
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#4083: Aug 27th 2018 at 10:53:49 PM

[up]You're throwing a [tup] right?

IPP Wick Check created.
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#4084: Aug 27th 2018 at 10:53:56 PM

[up] Ah alright that makes sense. Though I almost mistaken it as the Crawling Chaos tongue

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#4085: Aug 28th 2018 at 1:01:20 AM

I'll say yes to both of the above.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#4086: Aug 28th 2018 at 1:06:49 AM

[tup] to both above.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#4088: Aug 28th 2018 at 2:41:21 AM

Since he got 5 votes, here's Nyarly's draft, which is on the drafts page:

Nyarlathotep was formerly from the Capitalist Enterprise intelligence group Outer Gods, a cabal of spies who treated each other like family. As a spy, he has both gotten plastic surgery, and has faked his death numerous times. Once their leader/former friend, Azathoth/Acres Kiss-of-Rose, retired and gained leadership of the 7th Cores ruling the Capitalist Corporation, Nyarlathotep decided to retire and become a family man in the peaceful Soberania. But when his family gets killed in the destruction of Soberania at Azathoths's hands, the vengeful Nyarlahotep started psychological warfare between various factions in order to start the Gigant Hustler, an event showcasing giant Objects fighting each other. During the Gigant Hustler, Nyarlathotep infiltrated the battlefield and engineered a water leak from an underground vein, disrupting one of the participant's movement, to draw Azathoth into the event. Once the event is canceled, with one of his Objects destroyed, Azathoth plans an attack in order to divert attention away from him... only for Nyarly to kidnap and take him to the remains of Soberania where Nyarly kills Azathoth. Once this was discovered, a war almost started between every faction. Afterwards, Nyarlathotep is subjected to a farcical military trial by the Legitimacy Kingdom in order to avert war with the Capitalist Corporations. He then killed the assassin sent to silence him in his cell and faked his death once again, before departing to elsewhere.

IPP Wick Check created.
lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
#4089: Aug 28th 2018 at 4:17:17 AM

[tup]Rollo and while it doesn't matter since he already has a draft, [tup]Nyarly.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#4090: Aug 28th 2018 at 7:23:01 AM

I had binged watched The Boondocks not too long ago. I completely forgot about Rollo but yeah I don't see anything disqualifying. [tup] there.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#4091: Aug 28th 2018 at 11:58:18 AM

Yes to the above.

Now...The work? Black Sails. A show about pirates! In the golden age of piracy, at Nassau, the world is changing. Nassau has functioned as its own little community, but the British have been cracking down more...Eleanor Guthrie has built a trading empire in Nassau where she receives stolen cargo and sells it elsewhere, giving crews a cut of the profits in return.

Oh, and did I mention the cool little draw of the series? Two of our heroes? One Captain Flint and his friend, John Silver...it's also a Treasure Island prequel. How cool's that? So, let's discuss one of the best characters in series: Charles Vane.

Who is Charles Vane?

Once a young slave who rose from abuse to become a feared pirate captain, Vane was Eleanor Guthrie's lover years past, who helped her rise to take over Nassau from his mentor Edward "Blackbeard" Teach. Vane is terrifying, feared and dangerous, also notable because his crew includes the infamous female pirate Anne Bonney and her lover, the wily Jack Rackham...now, Vane starts the season learning Eleanor and her lover Max, a female prostitute have stolen from him which leads to serious conflict. Max is captured by Vane's crew, and to his disgust, ends up as a Sex Slave to them. Vane orders Rackham to mercy kill her, but Rackham is caught by the crew and Eleanor finds Max being attacked on the beach. Furiously, she blames Vane and declares all of them to be cut off from commerce unless they declare a new captain. Vane is exiled from the crew...

And then returns to where he used to be a slave, finds the man who used to abuse him, and in a series of total epic gambits, wins over everyone there, kills his former abuser and returns to Nassau, wins over the crews, becomes the most famous and beloved man on the island and punishes Jack and Anne by spreading the knowledge that they're traitors, leaving them stuck as managing a brothel, but never able to sail under the Black again, which "stings more than death."

In season 2? Nassau is visited by the twisted, sadistic Ned Low, a murderous thug and torturer who fixates on Eleanor. Vane, still on the rocks with his ex lover, is initially willing to let things play out, only to learn Low is keeping the daughter of a governor in the colonies captive for ransom. Vane and Low face off a few times, and Vane later goes to speak with Low on his ship...and has his own crew perform a stealth attack, eliminating Low's crew as Vane makes Low a deal: Low will give Vane his ship, his cargo, and his money. And that'll give him a head start. Realizing the danger he's in, Low attacks Vane, who subdues and brutally kills him, nailing his head to a post in Port Royal with a sign underneath that reads "I ANGERED CHARLES VANE." He and Eleanor reconcile over this and even become lovers again, despite Vane saying he didn't do it for her...which is at least partially a lie. Vane deeply loves her still, even after she betrayed him.

Vane takes the governor's daughter as a hostage to ransom her back home, as the British prepare to lay siege to Nassau...however, Vane discovers Eleanor's father is preparing to sell out Nassau. Eleanor betrays him again and Vane kills her father to save the island, but leaves Eleanor a warning that he will see accounts settled. Now, Vane is captured by the governor of South Carolina...and is to be executed with Captain Flint, only to completely fool them and set up his ship to attack before the execution. South Carolina is sacked and Vane and Flint escape, all thanks to Vane.

In season 3, Woodes Rogers arrives to deal with the pirates, a skilled British commander, as Vane helps to head up the fight against him. Blackbeard returns, and things look dire. Vane proves himself as shrewd as ever, and nearly kills Rogers, only to be subdued by Rogers' men. Eleanor, now Rogers' lover, goes to visit Vane in his cell where Vane completely destroys any sense of victory she has by revealing her father died not only a coward, but one who promised to sell Eleanor to Vane. Eleanor denounces him as a liar, but Vane calmly says she knows exactly what kind of man her father was, deep, deep down. She knows he's telling the truth.

Eleanor? Unjustly expedites Vane's hanging by forging Rogers' signature on key documents. Vane is taken to the gallows and sees several of his friends in the crowd, and realizing what he must do, signals them not to save him. Vane addresses the jeering crowd and with pure charisma silences them, telling him they're not hanging Vane because they fear him, but because they fear everyone there. He remidns Nassau it has the courage and the strength to resist. "They are few. We are many. And they can't hang us all."

He then looks to the hangman and says "get on with it, motherfucker." And when the cart begins to pull his legs away? Vane steps off to die on his own terms, shocking the crowd to the point that nobody protests when several pirates come to pull his legs and help him die quicker...and just as Vane hopes? War erupts, with his friends and allies ready to settle accounts against Rogers and Eleanor.

How do his actions show him as an MB?

Zach McGowan portrays Vane with incredible, cold and hard charisma. He's a complex, compelling, fascinating man who never lets a setback stop him. Vane gets back up, and he's smart. Multiple times he goes up against deadly enemies and completely outwits them either by guile, by winning their forces from under them or positioning his men just right. And he even uses his own death to inspire Nassau to rise up when he could've been saved.

Vane is constantly doing the impossible and it's great to watch.

Any mitigating qualities? Is he a bastard?

Vane is a pirate who won't shy from bloodshed. He's not the most friendly or approachable man, and at the start of the show, Eleanor angrily punches him in front of everyone. He punches her back, albeit nowhere near as hard as he could. He explains later it was necessary to save face. And yes, Vane is not a good man sometimes. He kills people, like Eleanor's father, and the whole business with Max? Not gonna lie. It's bad. Vane says her actions necessitated abducting her (trying to cheat him), but Vane says he had no choice but to allow the rape (his crew did it, and Vane was revolted by it, and tried to have a Mercy Kill done there). Vane is shown to be sickened, and like with Arminius, I think we have to take Values Dissonance into account here. Vane never rapes anyone (his only relationships were with Eleanor who he loved passionately, and with willing women or prostitutes on the island) and due to his past as a slave he loathes slavery. He loves Nassau and wants to see it free, and his most vulnerable moment in the series is having a hallucination of Eleanor mocking him for her first betrayal of him, driving him to tears.

Besides that, though? Vane ends up patching things up with Anne and Jack, and they become dear friends to the end. The last time vane sees Jack, they both know he's going to his death, and Jack tells him "godspeed, Charles," only for Vane to smile and say "fuck you, Jack," before hugging him. Jack later calls Vane his "best friend in the world"...and Vane also deeply cares for his mentor Blackbeard, who is furious over his death.

Conclusion?

Taken all into account, I think Vane is an easy keep. He's a cold pirate, make no mistake, but he's a brilliant commander who pulls off some really impressive maneuvers. He has an exceptionally moral side to him and the worst crime he's involved in is perpetrated by his crew to his utter revulsion and disgust, and he tries to have it ended as mercifully as he can manage. His death is widely hailed as one of the most emotional and tragic bits in the show and his character arc is something else.

Conclusion?

Hell to the yes on Charles Vane.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#4092: Aug 28th 2018 at 12:35:16 PM

There's one you've been working on a while! Yes to Vane!

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#4093: Aug 28th 2018 at 1:52:24 PM

[tup] to Vane. Looking forward to the other Black Sail candidates that might qualify.

Anywho here's Rollo's write-up

  • The Boondocks: Reverend Rollo Goodlove is a straw liberal activist whose motivations behind his multiple causes are money and publicity. First appearing in "The S-Word", Rollo convinces the Freeman family to sue Mr. Petto for using a "racial slur" on Riley, and prolonging the issue by collaborating with Ann Colter in orchestrating a political debate. In "The Hunger Strike" he convinces Huey to continue his hunger strike in the kid's efforts to boycott BET, only to abandon his cause once the network gives Rollo his own TV sitcom. Helping the Freemans once again in "The New Black", he manages to convince the public that Riley is a special needs child whose uses the word "gay" to describe something he doesn't like, switching their ire to the gay rights community who sued Riley for saying the slur. While the his beliefs in his causes might not be genuine, his charisma and master planning are, making Rollo Goodlove the most likable mastermind on the show.

[down][tup] to Sojia

Edited by G-Editor on Aug 28th 2018 at 12:58:03 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#4094: Aug 28th 2018 at 3:45:06 PM

[tup]Vain

Any way, here's my next candidate.

Heavy Object Candidate 2:

Master Joseph: Jackie, what's the work?:

  • therealjackieboy: Heavy Object Volume 6 has our "heroes" Qwenser and Havia encounter a royal battle between a princess and her brother Dimiksy Nikolaschka (a CM), with the duo dead set on protecting the princess from her evil brother's assassination attempts at all costs.

Joseph: Who is Sogia/Yulenzak What makes him a candidate?

  • Jackie: So there's one faction that's trying to take down the evil prince Dimiksy: Unicorn, led by Sogia. Formerly named Yulenzak, Sogia was the leader of the White Bears, a royal guard unit for Princess Staivia Nikolaschka, Dimiksy's sister. Five years ago, the White Bears learned of Dimiksy's plans to assassinate Staivia under the guise of a Royal Duel and their assassination of Excelsyla to obtain the Assault Signal, however they were unable to thwart or slow the conspiracy. Deciding to go into hiding to slowly stop this dastardly plan, Sogia and his crew, the White Bears were supposedly completely wiped out by a sudden attack from the Information Alliance during a military exercise in a South American desert. The attack was actually engineered by Dimiksy's faction, who attempted to kill them using a cluster bomb of miniature thermobaric bombs scattered over their heads. However Sogia and the unit had anticipated the attack, and manipulated circumstances in order to fake their deaths and became Unicorn in order to act against Dimiksy in the shadows, having hidden their entire existence altogether. Throughout the book, they managed to get Quenser and Heivia reassigned to the islands, where they fight a war and learn of Dimiksy's plans. They also interfered with the two while they were participating in an operation in the Athabasca District as part of the Background Unit. When Q & H fight off against Dimiksy and his Broad Sky Saber Object, Sogia and Unicorn raid the Flightburg Air Force Base in order to use the equipment there to take down the Object with their own Object, Forest Roller. Unfortunately, FR is destroyed by Dimiksy's giant laser cannon, who had anticipated the attack. However, the attack revealed the SS's anti-laser beacon. With the help of Sogia, Q & H manage to corrupt the beacon, causing the SS to blow up, killing Dimiksy and saving Staivia in the process. However, Sogia and his men are arrested for numerous acts of murder.

Joseph: What's Yu's competition?

  • Jackie: None of the other characters are as willing to risk their lives or fake their deaths in order to save someone. Sogia/Yul truly cares for Staivia, doing everything he can over the span of a decade to protect her; no other character in the book has that level of commitment.

Joseph: Does his intelligence stand out?

  • Jackie: Yes. He's the one behind their plan to fake the White Bears' deaths, and he's always got a plan up his sleeve if he things don't go his way. Super smart, if being able to immediately fake your death and go into hiding while altering your identity for three whole years classifies as smart.

Joseph: Is he charming? charismatic?

  • Jackie: Yes. He's a nice fellow who, while he admits to having killed numerous people, will do whatever he can to protect Staivia.

Joseph: Is he a Chessmaster? Manipulative bastard? Capable of Xanatos Speed Chess?

  • Jackie: While he's not an ultimate chessmaster, he's still a good strategist who is a master at XSC; I mean, dude never planned to fake his and his team's deaths, but decided to do it on the fly... and succeeded. Also he and his crew manipulated Q & H into getting assigned to the islands where Prince D is at.

Joseph: Is he a bastard? Too much?

  • Jackie: He's killed plenty of people over the years, but has regretted it.

Joseph: Your conclusion?

  • Jackie: Keeper

IPP Wick Check created.
lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#4096: Aug 28th 2018 at 5:42:22 PM

Yes there Joseph

Also, some more stuff to cut, this time references directly from Gary Oldman's page:

While an Evil Is Cool case can no doubt be made for each, they all fall short, from the top:

  • Precisely what makes Stansfield such a fun villain is how he'll go 0-100 from The Stoic to a hammy Villainous Breakdown. Way too unstable;
  • Carnegie I put up some time ago as a Complete Monster and I'd argue he's ultimately a Smug Snake out of his depth, as seen by the implication that chasing Eli will lead to his death and watching the town he built fall apart while he's powerless in the end and oh yeah, he's really fucking evil;
  • Lord Shen is... fucking awesome and probably comes the closest but despite being a Faux Affably Evil Chessmaster and Manipulative Bastard who ends up getting to Face Death with Dignity but the whole point of his character is that he's hungering for a conquest that will be his downfall but is so greedy he can't turn away. Great villain but ultimately a bit too unstable of a Psychopathic Manchild for this trope.

Gonna cut the references.

Edited by 43110 on Aug 28th 2018 at 9:20:52 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#4098: Aug 28th 2018 at 8:31:14 PM

While Sogia doesn't have enough votes yet, here's Heavy Object Candidate 3:

Master Joseph: Jackie, what's the work?:

  • therealjackieboy: Heavy Object Volume 11, where Heivia and Quenser are caught right in the middle of a civil war between the Winchel and Vanderbilt families. With news of the LK Ship Rose & Lily, a cruise ship with 100,000 people aboard, being the sight of another civil war and massacre, it's up to the two idiots to prevent the deaths of thousands, and stop our good ol' CM Flag Eggnog, the one behind the recent civil wars.

Joseph: Who are Alisa, Rica, and Orsia of the Martini Series, what makes them candidates?

  • Jackie: Alisa, Rica, and Orisa are the three members of the Information Alliance's Martini Series who help Prince Flag Eggnog start the wars between the Vanderbilts and the Winchels, even assisting him with the drug war and the construction of the Plasma 177 meant to keep him in power. At first. No, they're actually trying to manipulate Eggnog in order to obtain sample data on nobles for the Perfect Browsing project, a system that would display how to resolve a worldwide crisis by just typing a string of text into a search engine. Many sample incidents and disasters as possible, preferring to get info from a noble near the top of an enemy world power, using Eggnog because he was so dimwitted to believe them as allies. Near the conclusion of the attack on the Celestial Flowers, the sisters contacted Flag and revealed their goals and manipulation before leaving him to his ruin, noting that they'd now obtained sample data on the full-speed collapse of a royal's life, planning to upload it in its entirety for everyone to see, before hanging up on the confused, infuriated prince.

Joseph: What's their competition?

  • Jackie: Well, Eggnog's a CM who is just a flat-out moron, and Azureyfear Winchell, while not as evil as she appears to be, can't match the Sisters' Yuki Terumi levels of intelligent trolling.

Joseph: Does their intelligence stand out?

  • Jackie: Yes. The three manage to showcase a lot of intelligence, being able to trick the stupid prince into spilling information for them.

Joseph: Are they charming? charismatic?

  • Jackie: They're interesting, but also hilarious, especially when they spill the beans to Eggnog about how they were never on his side.

Joseph: Are they Chessmasters? Manipulative Bitches? Capable of Xanatos Speed Chess?

  • Jackie: Manipulative, yes; they do just that to Eggnog, taking advantage of his low intelligence to gather information. Can't say much for Chessmasters, since they were just hired help, and they don't show that they're capable of XSC, as their plan goes smoothly regardless.

Joseph: Are they bitches? Too much?

  • Jackie: Well, they did help start some civil wars, and there isn't anything particularly good about them. They aren't as evil as Eggnog, and are loyal to their Alliance, so that's something.

Joseph: Your conclusion?

  • Jackie: I'd say keepers.

IPP Wick Check created.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#4099: Aug 28th 2018 at 8:32:18 PM

Having got an ahead glance, yes to the sisters.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#4100: Aug 28th 2018 at 8:56:03 PM

[tup]Vane, Sogia and sisters.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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