During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
@43110 @miraculous Didn't Scraggs express an interest for E Ping him? Just curious.
Anyways, find this on The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus:
- Magnificent Bastard: Mr. Nick naturally, being Satan.
- Say whatever you like about Tony Shepherd but the man certainly knows how to swing a crowd!
Tag this on my to-do list since I do want to put Heath Ledger's last movie for my watchlist btw. But as for now, I'll cut this.
Also, I give a yea to the Keyes and Ermanher or whatshisname
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Aug 26th 2018 at 11:06:11 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."So I've finished Kamen Rider Gaim and I agree that none of the characters Miraculous brought earlier
count. May I cut them?
Oh crap I forgot to remove them. Yeah go ahead. Dj Sagara might keep (emphsis on the word might as were not 100 percent on him) though but polar and me will get back to him later, so cut for now.
Edited by miraculous on Aug 26th 2018 at 9:46:26 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I dabbled on this thread a few times, but I never made an effort-post until now. And recently I found a character who I feel might qualify, so here's my first effort-post for an MB.
What’s the work?
DuckTales (2017) is a reboot of the classic cartoon with the same name. After a series of adventures, Donald Duck and his three nephews, Huey, Dewey, and Louie move in to Scrooge McDuck’s mansion after Dewey accidentally causes the boat they’re living on to be blown up.
In the episode, The Golden Lagoon of White Agony Plains, Scrooge and the triplets go to a gala celebrating the opening of a section of the museum dedicated to Scrooge’s enemy, Flintheart Glomgold (Scrooge is only going there because there’s a free buffet, so he can save money on food). When he arrives, he encounters a familiar face.
Who is she? What does she do?
Goldie O’Glit is Scrooge’s former treasure hunting partner, along with rival. During past adventures, Scrooge and Goldie have both attempted to backstab each other numerous times, both for the treasure, and to make the adventure more thrilling. Yet they remained partners until one expedition where they were searching for the titular Golden Lagoon of White Agony Plains.
While searching, she found an opportunity to steal the map and run off, but Scrooge caught up. During the scuffle, the map ripped into two halves. Then, they were attacked by a mammoth, and during their escape, Goldie’s half of the map got stuck within the teeth of the monster. Scrooge and Goldie ran into a lake out of desperation, but got frozen. Five years later, Goldie thawed out before Scrooge, playfully blew a kiss at him, and ran off, leaving him to thaw out later.
Over a century later (it’s mentioned within the episode by them that Goldie drank from the fountain of youth, and Scrooge was in another dimension with a different time flow for a while) Goldie appears at the gala again. After insults are thrown between her and Scrooge, they start to tango together and playfully banter while going over adventures they had after they split up. Goldie mentions a talisman that prevents her from being burned (remember that for later) When Flintheart reveals that the skeleton of the Glacial Beast of White Agony Plains (the same mammoth that Scrooge and Goldie ran into) is at the exhibit, a blackout occurs, and Goldie steals the skull of it amidst the confusion to get her half of the map from it.
Later, Goldie breaks into McDuck manor, ties up Webby and Ms. Beakly, and, after a failed attempt to get Scrooge’s half of the map, she convinces Scrooge the team up with her to find the Golden Lagoon, knowing that Scrooge’s pride won’t allow him to pass up the opportunity to find what he failed to previously.
While the two are working together, Goldie makes two attempts to betray Scrooge. One when taking a photo of the map pieces put together when they celebrate progress they made (Scrooge sees through this quickly and confiscates her phone) and a later point where she reveals that she’s been setting a trail of gunpowder for several meters, tricking Scrooge into lighting a match which she uses to set the trail, knowing that Scrooge will try to stop it from making a cave-in. While Scrooge tries and fails to stop the spark, Goldie takes his piece of the map and continues on her own. Unbeknownst to Scrooge, she never tried to start a cave-in at all, with the gunpowder trail ending at a sleeping bear. Unbeknownst to Goldie however, Scrooge is able to tame and communicate with bears, and rides it to Goldie, tying her to the bear when he catches up.
While still tied to the bear, Goldie goes over previous times she betrayed Scrooge on adventures, such as pushing him off a plane, or selling him to pirates, both of them enjoying the memories and how Scrooge always pulled through “Because he’s Scrooge McDuck”. When Scrooge tells Goldie how the betrayal when they were frozen hurt him because it’s when they realized they loved each other but Goldie didn’t thaw him out, Goldie tells Scrooge how it’s because of her betrayals and the ensuring conflicts that they loved each other to begin with. This convinces Scrooge to untie her, and they arrive at the Golden Lagoon, an underground cavern with molten gold flowing.
Flintheart Glomgold later shows up, and the two reveal that they had a plan from the start to get Scrooge to discover the cavern before betraying an killing him. When Goldie puts a pickaxe at Scrooge’s neck, she’s clearly uncomfortable with it, as unlike with the other betrayals, she didn’t believe Scrooge can make it out of this. Thankfully, while Goldie is yelling at Flintheart for when he accidentally endangered her life (cutting an elevator shaft Scrooge and Goldie were both in) Scrooge gets a pickaxe, and the two have a duel/tango, Flintheart repeatedly trying and failing to fight as well. Eventually fed up, Flintheart throws a shovel at a stalactite over an unstable bridge over the golden lava the two are on to try and kill them both. Goldie notices, and pushes Scrooge out of the way before falling into the lava.
When Flintheart ties up Scrooge to have molten golden lava poured onto him while mocking him by kissing what they believe to be the deceased Goldie covered in molten gold, they both discover that the molten gold isn’t being poured onto Scrooge, but transferred to somebody’s boat. Goldie reveals that she survived the molten gold due to the previously mentioned talisman that prevents burns, and broke out of the gold that encased her, tricking both Scrooge and Flintheart into thinking she died while she steals the molten gold. She then drives off in her boat, leaving Flintheart angered, and Scrooge amazed. When Scrooge returns to his mansion, he sees a postcard from Goldie, flirtatiously telling him to come find her if he wants another challenge, and Scrooge smiles at it.
How do her actions show she’s a Magnificent Bastard?
Disregarding the several times she tricks Scrooge even before the Batman Gambit at the end of the episode, Goldie is one of it not the only villain in the show so far to pull a long-term The Bad Guy Wins. She plays both Flintheart and Scrooge like a fiddle, using the both of them to get to the Golden Lagoon before making off with the gold, and them with nothing. She’s charismatic enough to convince Scrooge to cut her bindings despite him knowing she’s untrustworthy by appealing to not only his love for her, but his love for the challenge she brings.
Is she too much of a bastard?
I’d say no. Unlike Flintheart, she’s not a Smug Snake and despite the constant betrayals, the episode makes it clear that she always believed Scrooge would make it through, and as I stated before, is notably uncomfortable when she believes he won’t survive when she betrays him with Flintheart. She’s a Friendly Enemy whose more than happy to have playful discussions about old times with Scrooge even if it won’t benefit her, and she saves Scrooge’s life from Flintheart three times in the episode (one when he tries to kill him with a shovel, one from falling into the molten gold, and the third from having it poured on him). It's not because he loves her that Scrooge respects her so much as he loves her for being such a Worthy Opponent
Final Thoughts?
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Aug 26th 2018 at 2:03:54 PM
I have just reserved Kingdom Hearts III for myself and Scraggle.
Yep, it's a crossover episode within a crossover episode.
We'll lead discussion on this immense plot vampire. And I'd like to thank Scraggle for giving me so much fun talking about this wonderful and stupid franchise just in our PM discussions.
February's gonna be fun.
Wow over a decade's worth of games and really complicated plot's to sort through. I dont envy you guys. Thats going to be a pain.
Edited by miraculous on Aug 26th 2018 at 12:42:45 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Goldie
Jackie and I happen to be working on an MB effort post for Heavy Object styled after online interviews.
IPP Wick Check created.So it just dawned on me someone played around with the Vulture's writeup a bit. Does anyone care if we use the new version or do we wanna just stick with the old? Here they are for comparison:
Old from YMMV:
- Adrian Toomes was once a hard working man who made a living salvaging Chitauri technology from The Incident. After having his occupation taken by Damage Control, he became a career criminal, taking the moniker The Vulture, and turning what was left of his salvaging company into an underground arms dealership, that would steal said technology and sell it to criminals. Toomes made sure not to leave any evidence for government officials to track his operations, while also making sure they aren't too big so that the Avengers won't view them as a threat; This process worked great for Toomes and his criminal business lasted for eight years without any problems. However, when he does face a problem in Spider-Man he isn't afraid to fight Spider-Man himself on several occasions; Spider-Man barely manages to survive those encounters with him. He is also able to uncover Spider-Man's civilian identity, Peter Parker, simply by analyzing Peter's behavior, and finds an opportunity to intimidate Peter from interfering with his operations. When this fails he sends The Shocker to distract Peter and later fights him for the final time so he wouldn't foil Toomes' latest heist job. Although threatening to kill Peter and his loved ones, its shown that Toomes greatly respects him, showing gratitude for saving his daughter's life, as well as his own, by not selling out his Secret Identity in prison, cementing Adrian Toomes as one of the most honorable, yet cunning foes in the films.
New from the main page:
- Adrian Toomes/Vulture was once a hard working man who made a living salvaging Chitauri technology from The Incident. After having his occupation taken by Damage Control, he became a career criminal, taking the moniker The Vulture, and turning what was left of his salvaging company into an underground arms dealership, that would steal said technology and sell it to criminals. Toomes made sure not to leave any evidence for government officials to track his operations, while also making sure they aren't too big so that the Avengers won't view them as a threat; This process worked great for Toomes and his criminal business lasted for eight years without any problems. However, when he does face a problem in Spider-Man he isn't afraid to fight Spider-Man himself on several occasions; Spider-Man barely manages to survive those encounters with him. He is also able to uncover Spider-Man's civilian identity, Peter Parker, simply by analyzing Peter's behavior, and finds an opportunity to intimidate Peter from interfering with his operations. When this fails he sends The Shocker to distract Peter and later fights him for the final time so he wouldn't foil Toomes' latest heist job. Although threatening to kill Peter and his loved ones, its shown that Toomes greatly respects him, showing gratitude for saving his daughter's life, as well as his own, by not selling out his Secret Identity in prison, cementing Adrian Toomes as one of the most honorable, yet cunning foes in the films.
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Oh shit, I didn't even notice that was the only thing changed. Yeah, if anything that just makes it redundant. Old one it is.
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Also, I haven't seen it so I can't comment.
Edited by 43110 on Aug 26th 2018 at 5:25:10 AM
to Keyes, Armanus, and Goldie
Oh and keep the old entries of Adrian Toomes.
Also has anyone have anything to comment on these entries from Better Call Saul?
- Magnificent Bastard: Chuck is definitely a candidate after seeing his tape recorder trick. However much you may hate him for it using Jimmy's natural behavioural habits to get him arrested is actually pretty impressive strategically.
- Jimmy of course, has his moments. Especially with the Mesa Verde scam as Howard puts it, "Your brother is one world-class son of a bitch". He then doubles down when he uses Chuck's pride and his condition against him during the court battle, by provoking Chuck into embarking on a vicious spiteful tirade against his brother, leading everyone in the room to question his professionalism or sanity. Not done yet, he then uses Crocodile Tears on an insurance agent to make sure Chuck's legal career is utterly fucked.
- Mike embarks on a gambit that even puts his handiwork in "Mabel" to shame. He hits another one of Hector's ice cream trucks, but instead of robbing it, he engineers an ingenious scenario that involves planting drugs on the truck, by stuffing them inside a pair of shoes, which then deposit the cocaine powder when Mike shoots them from a hilltop with a rifle. The Border Patrol subsequently arrest the drivers when the sniffer dogs find the drugs. And we see that Mike has learned from the mistakes he made the last time he hit Hector. The robbery merely disrupted Hector's operation and got two people (the driver and an innocent bystander) killed. This time, Mike and Gus have guaranteed that the Feds come down hard on Hector and shut him down completely, as Mike had planned for the first job to do. Unlike last time, Mike ensures that this plan won't end with civilians in the crossfire. And as the flash-forward in the opening shows, this operation has caused Gus to gain an edge in the drug market.
Oh, and Awesome is giving me permission to do this, so... without further ado?
- DuckTales (2017): Scrooge's old flame and "ex-everything," Goldie O'Gilt, is a beautiful, conniving treasure hunter who rivals Scrooge himself in sheer wit and tenacity. Lacking Scrooge's scruples and possessed of a penchant for betrayal, Goldie has betrayed Scrooge countless times to leave him in the wake of danger while she constantly walks off untouched. In her debut episode, Goldie plays both Scrooge and Flintheart in her pursuit of the Golden Lagoon, using Scrooge to locate the Lagoon for her before managing to fake her death with the Eye of Demogorgon and making off with the treasure herself, completely untouched in the end. Even through their constant quarreling and rivalry, Goldie and Scrooge retain a fierce, mutual respect for each other, with Goldie always knowing Scrooge will make it out alive out of whatever conundrum she leaves him in and Scrooge acknowledging her as his greatest Worthy Opponent.
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Neither Chuck nor Jimmy count. They're both really clever and admirable in their own different ways, but they're also too absorbed in their petty feud against each other which cause them to make stupid mistakes — Jimmy when he breaks into Chuck's house and almost assault him in front of witnesses, Chuck when he throws a tantrum during the court battle which makes him look like an unhinged maniac — and they both end up alone and miserable.
Mike... maybe.
Write-ups:
- Block 109: Grand Master Zytek was once a member of the anti-Nazi resistance who pledged to infiltrate the Nazi German hierarchy in order to destroy it from within. Zytek assassinates Adolf Hitler himself, which inadvertently causes a more effective leadership to take charge of the Third Reich and escalate the war, destroying much of the world population in a full-scale nuclear attack, along with Zytek's beloved family. Zytek later becomes ultimate leader, using his private paramilitary organization the Teutonic Order to foil his enemies within the Reich, stopping an attempted coup d'etat by his ambitious rival Reinhard Heydrich before he can even put it into action, and wipes out the rest of the Nazi leadership in one fell swoop for their crimes against humanity. Zytek's ultimate plan is to destroy the major warring powers in a nuclear apocalypse while allowing a select group of people from the Reich and other populations around the world to survive and rebuild civilization. A charismatic leader who inspires nothing but total devotion from his men because of his convictions and courage in battle, Zytek is a deeply tragic figure who ultimately dies in a valiant last stand to rid the world of its worst evils and save mankind in the long run.
- Les Aigles de Rome: Ermanamer/Arminius is a prince of the Cherusci who is sent as a hostage to Rome to ensure his tribe's loyalty. Growing up among a Roman family, Arminius becomes Blood Brothers with Marcus Valerius Falco, spending their young years training to be warriors and living a carefree life bedding women, getting into fights, and watching horse races. When Marcus is planning to throw away his career by running away with a girl he fell in love with, Arminius arranges to break them up. Becoming an officer in the staff of General Varus at the Rhine frontier, Ermanamer serves Rome's interests while secretly never having lost his sense of patriotism, biding his time by becoming an accomplice in a plot by Varus and one of his other officers, Lepidus, to overthrow Augustus himself. Marcus, who has arrived with instructions to spy on his brother, is found out by Ermanamer within days of his arrival and is later framed for the murder of Varus' lover Nektarios. Ermanamer also takes his beloved Thusnelda away from her disapproving father Segestes, eloping with her and making Segestes appear unreliable to the Romans in the process. Setting out to free Germania from Roman rule and fulfill a prophecy given to him by a woods witch, Ermanamer establishes himself as leader of the tribes before luring the Roman army into a trap at Teutoburg Forest. Having successfully wiped out three legions of the most powerful army in the world, Ermanamer is crowned King of the Germanii.
Edited by Morgenthaler on Aug 27th 2018 at 2:30:05 AM
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

Does Alex count as an MB for real though ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."