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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#40701: Mar 9th 2021 at 11:33:45 AM

Abstain on Aaron. I don't remember him being charming, just smug in his victory, but it's been a while since I saw the movie. So I could be misremembering.

Edited by Bullman on Mar 9th 2021 at 1:36:02 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#40702: Mar 9th 2021 at 11:37:58 AM

Well he boasts to Vail at the end of the movie. I’m not sure that it came off as smugness exactly.

He doesn’t show any smugness in the scenes where he’s being himself as Roy earlier in the film though and is clearly very in control and knows exactly what he’s doing.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#40703: Mar 9th 2021 at 11:42:07 AM

I mean like I said I could be misremembering, but I can't vote him up when the only thing we really see of him is him bragging about his victory. However, I am not down voting, and don't mind him going up.

Edited by Bullman on Mar 9th 2021 at 1:43:28 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#40704: Mar 9th 2021 at 11:42:13 AM

Well I'm abstaining on this. Something seems off but I'm not sure what....

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#40705: Mar 9th 2021 at 11:46:27 AM

@Riley Yes, I'm referring to post-retcon Spawn. At least as a POTENTIAL keeper. He's much smarter, more cunning, and far less neutral than he used to be.

Edited by Stellarvore on Mar 9th 2021 at 1:51:03 PM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#40706: Mar 9th 2021 at 11:47:30 AM

He’s wanting to share that victory with Vail though and there’s also clear Villain Respect in that scene too.

I’m also good whichever way this goes, though I hope he goes up obviously.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#40707: Mar 9th 2021 at 11:50:22 AM

And with mostly approval, here is Gina Vendetti's write-up. (I had to look up her last name as it's not mentioned in the actual episode.

  • The Simpsons

    • The Wandering Juvie, Gina Vendetti is a young troubled pre-teen, who got into a juvenile correctional facility by shoving Snow White off a building. She easily manipulates Bart: by tricking him into going along with her by playing a Wounded Gazelle Gambit, using her wits to outsmart the Warden of the facility, to escape using a disco ball connected to a rope and a blacksmith to remove their cuffs. Despite constantly hurting Bart both mentally and physically, she truly loves him, and has no family to speak of, when caught she confesses everything get Bart set free. Troubled, intelligent with a hidden heart of gold, Gina showed herself to be among the most clever of Bart's girlfriends.

Edited by Klavice on Mar 9th 2021 at 11:50:56 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#40708: Mar 9th 2021 at 11:50:54 AM

[up][up]I just rewatched the scene. I am sorry I am still getting smug bragging vibes personally. However, that could just be me.

Edited by Bullman on Mar 9th 2021 at 1:52:25 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#40709: Mar 9th 2021 at 11:51:31 AM

I'm saying no to Aaron.

  1. He commits rape under duress.
  2. I seem to have read that he blamed his girlfriend, herself an alleged victim of sexual violence, for her own demise.

A real magnificent bastard wouldn't commit full fledged sexual assault, even under duress, as far as I am concerned. That combined with the victim blaming make me very uncomfortable with that candidate.

Note: Edited to censor problematic statements. [up] The gloating is the icing on the cake.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 9th 2021 at 4:02:13 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#40710: Mar 9th 2021 at 11:58:29 AM

[tup]Mordyn, Seymour, Misa

[tdown]Aaron.

I'll say we haven't peaked with a Spongebob page, but we can still go higher!

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#40711: Mar 9th 2021 at 11:58:58 AM

@SkyCat Well it’s ambiguous as to how much of a victim Linda actually is. That could just be me unintentionally carrying that element over from one of the books though where I think it’s made more clear that she was in on it with Rushman and if so, I apologize.

Here’s the movie’s ending. Just go to about 2:30.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 9th 2021 at 12:17:31 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#40712: Mar 9th 2021 at 12:00:06 PM

[up][up][up]I'm confused here so you find someone getting forced to rape somoneone as bad as an actual sexual assault by someone who willingly did it.....

That's a really gross sentiment.

Anyway no to Aaron. Dude is kinda of a smug dick.

Edited by miraculous on Mar 9th 2021 at 12:00:51 PM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#40713: Mar 9th 2021 at 12:01:17 PM

[up][up] I didn't mention Linda, but the ending is the problem in my opinion. Which like I said still comes off smug to me.

Edited by Bullman on Mar 9th 2021 at 2:07:59 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#40714: Mar 9th 2021 at 12:06:04 PM

mir [nja]ed me. He might’ve missed what I said.

I’ll wait for more people to weigh in before I change my mind on my vote.

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#40716: Mar 9th 2021 at 12:06:17 PM

To be honest I don't like the idea of holding the sexual assault under threat against him, that should only be held against the one making the threats.

I'm still abstaining on Aaron due to potential smugness and victim blaming.

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#40717: Mar 9th 2021 at 12:07:21 PM

Yeah that sounds like gross victim blaming

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Atlantis1930 Since: May, 2012
#40718: Mar 9th 2021 at 12:08:26 PM

[tup] Mordyn, Seymour, Misa

Here's my next Inside No.9 EP. From the Series 5 episode “Misdirection.”

Magician Wally Wondo, a kind man who simply wants to entertain kids, has come up with an ingenious magic trick where he makes a chair appear to levitate in mid air whilst draped in a sheet. Showing this to awestruck amateur magician Neville Griffin (an unlikeable snake of a man), he also shows Neville the secret black book he has written the secret of the trick down in. Putting the sheet over him, Neville then bludgeons him and kills him with a guillotine, before stealing the black book and using it to achieve fame and fortune.

10 years later, Neville keeps the secret hidden in a safe in the same warehouse where he killed Wally and has gone onto become an extremely successful magician, whilst marrying in the interim. Rehearsing for a new show, Neville agrees to an interview with journalist and eager amateur magician Gabriel. However, Gabriel is not who he seems.

Who is he?

Gabriel is actually Wally Wondo’s grandson and is determined to take revenge, even if that means an innocent woman has to die.

What does he do?

Just as good a magician as his grandfather, Gabriel concocts and executes a brilliant scheme to ruin Neville’s life by framing him for the murder of his wife using the concept of “misdirection”, i.e. making Neville believe that one thing is happening when in fact it’s something else. In this case, he tricks Neville into believing that he is trying (and failing) to frame him for the murder of Wally through a series of elaborate though obvious tricks and manipulations, whilst actually plotting to frame him for a murder he didn’t (that of his wife).

Knowing that the smug Neville will be eager to school him and boast of his own superiority, Gabriel is able to manipulate Neville into framing himself through the following ways:

1. At the very beginning, Gabriel does a minor magic trick where he steals Neville’s ring. This at first appears to be him trying to impress his idol. Gabriel however uses it to plant a tracking device on it that wires to his phone. This enables him to see the combination to Neville’s safe, where he has stashed the secret to Wally’s trick. He also fools Neville into bragging that only he knows the combination and no one else.

2. Appearing to do an elaborate trick with a razor blade, Gabriel fools Neville into handling it, which plants his fingerprints all over the weapon.

3. Needing to make Neville paranoid and insecure, Gabriel pretends to take phone calls during the “interview” before revealing that he is Wally’s grandson and vowing revenge, knowing that Neville will mock him and then throw him out, but nevertheless unnerving him. Convincing Neville that someone else may be watching, he (just as Gabriel planned) decides to make sure that Wally’s trick is still in the safe and then to dispose of it to get rid of the evidence. However, so as not to incriminate himself, Neville turns off his security camera for the rest of the night so that it doesn’t pick him up burning the notes.

All of that done, Gabriel phones the hotel where Neville’s wife is staying that night (being away on a work assignment) and leaves a series of abusive messages whilst posing as Neville, and then breaks into her room and kills her with the razorblade. Returning, Gabriel deposits the razor in the safe and leaves, knowing that the evidence against Neville is now near rock solid.

The next morning the police arrive and question Neville, and he realises too late that Gabriel swearing vengeance on him for Wally’s death and attempting to force him to confess was just a ploy to distract him from the murder of his wife. Due to the fact that he switched off his security last night, the police become intensely suspicious and ask to look in his safe. Opening up the safe to reveal the bloodied razor, an utterly defeated Neville is taken away and jailed for life.

Is he magnificent?

Oh yes he is. The whole episode, Gabriel is totally ahead of Neville and outwits him at every turn. Neville is such a smug and unlikeable weasel, totally convinced that he has beaten Gabriel and that he has the situation in hand, that you are rooting for him to get his comeuppance, which makes it all the more satisfying when he does. Gabriel is also quite charming and likeable, meaning it’s all but impossible not to cheer when Gabriel beats Neville at his own game, despite the fact that Gabriel murdered an innocent woman.

Is he a bastard?

Wanting to take revenge for your grandfather’s death on a smug weasel of a man? Totally sympathetic. Murdering a completely innocent and blameless woman to do so? Not so much. A yes there.

Conclusion?

A yes from me.

Edited by Atlantis1930 on Mar 9th 2021 at 8:09:28 PM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#40719: Mar 9th 2021 at 12:08:48 PM

@miraculous: Yeah. So? For example, if I were forced to choose between raping somebody and letting them die, I'd let them die! From what I have heard, sexual assault is one of the most horrific experiences to which you can subject somebody. Admittedly, his choices were, commit sexual assault, or end up homeless, but that still leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. This got too heated. Dialing it back.

Regardless, we can all agree, watching the scene, he comes off as smug.

Yes to Gabriel.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 9th 2021 at 3:12:05 PM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#40720: Mar 9th 2021 at 12:10:16 PM

Gentleman please tone it down. I don't want this thread to turn into mass-thumping...

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#40721: Mar 9th 2021 at 12:10:27 PM

With his earlier scenes in the movie when he’s Roy, he’s basically playing himself. He’s just playing up the aggression a bit though to sell the lie/bit.

He came off as admiring Vail in the final scene to me though, but I can understand why that’s seen coming off as smugness.

Yikes... I didn’t expect this.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 9th 2021 at 12:12:09 PM

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#40722: Mar 9th 2021 at 12:13:08 PM

[tup] to Gabriel.

Leaning no to Aaron.

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Mar 9th 2021 at 12:13:33 PM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#40725: Mar 9th 2021 at 12:19:53 PM

[tup]Gabriel.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid

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