During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Sure to that Captain America tree. Not vital but I think it looks good to be put in there personally.
Animated Films will probably get a page eventually, but part of why it keeps getting delayed is because of the existence of other subpages (Just got a SpongeBob one, we have a Disney one, we have a Marvel and a DC one and I think we have enough Dreamworks stuff for a page now if you include their other stuff actually)
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Yeah. I’ve noticed that too. I think because there’s really no continuity with Dreamworks that it’s not really necessary for a CM or an MB page actually.
Here it is with the first film potholed in:
- Captain America:
- Captain America: The Winter Soldier: Alexander Pierce is the US Secretary of Defense, a member of the World Security Council, and a commanding member of HYDRA, who have evolved from a Nazi science cult to a fascist conspiracy group dedicated to bringing about One World Order under their banner. Pierce had the Winter Soldier assassinate his old friend Nick Fury so Pierce can take control of S.H.I.E.L.D. and Project Insight, intending to use the project to massacre hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people, who could stand in HYDRA's way. Along the way he frames Captain America as a rogue agent who has to go on the run, kills his fellow members of the World Security Council, and shoots his housekeeper just for walking in on a meeting he has with the Winter Soldier. And he does all of this with calm, affable composure towards his enemies, attempting to make them understand that Utopia Justifies the Means.
- Captain America: Civil War: Helmut Zemo proves his stripes as one of the greatest manipulators of the franchise. Overcome with grief over losing his family during the Avengers battle with Ultron, Zemo decides to enact vengeance against them. Knowing he is no match for them in strength, Zemo instead devises an intricate plan to break them up. Launching an attack on a UN conference, Zemo frames Bucky Barnes for the attack which starts a manhunt against him. After Bucky is captured, Zemo impersonates a UN interrogator to activate Bucky's Trigger Phrase which will put him under his control to give him information on the death of Tony Stark's parents. Finally, Zemo leaks this ruse to the media, counting on Tony Stark following Cap and Bucky to the Hydra compound in Siberia so he can accomplish his real plan: show Tony evidence that Bucky killed his parents, causing him to fly into a murderous rage and attack Bucky and Captain America, devastatingly fracturing the Avengers. By the end, in spite of being captured by T'Challa, Zemo still accomplishes what he wanted and gracefully accepts his capture and even offers to let T'Challa kill him to avenge the death of his father. Zemo stands out in a world full of super-powered beings, aliens, sorcerers and cosmic entities with only his intelligence and able to cement himself as one of the work's most successful villains.
Send to the drafts? Which version?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 9th 2021 at 9:06:18 AM
Alternatively you could pothole to his character page? Otherwise, I'm good with that one.
Well we don’t have a pothole like for Guardians of the Galaxy over on CM. Is his character not already potholed in one of the actual entries?
Also, the Guardians of the Galaxy heading isn’t potholed to the first movie because that pothole’s in Ronan’s entry.
By the way, was Thanos first approved after Infinity War or after Endgame? Just curious.
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It's not but still I don't mind too much either way.
After Endgame, as far as I remember.
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Mar 9th 2021 at 9:14:34 AM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"I’m gonna pothole the title header with The First Avenger and pothole the character in the entry for Pierce. Or the one for Zemo, whichever has less potholes. That’s what I’m thinking.
I’ll wrap it up and send it to the drafts. I got this...
I checked the potholes. Again, I’m using my own judgment. I don’t mean to hold the thread up, so again, gonna wrap it up quickly now.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 9th 2021 at 9:21:08 AM
By the way for Vulture entry we have The Hero potholed around Spider-Man. Should his character page instead?
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadOkay, future, I have no clue why you need so much direction with this stuff: you've kept coming back to a minor, minor change and apparently it was something you've obsessed over so much you had asked me before. Stop derailing the thread so that random bits of formatting adhere to whatever guidelines are your current fixation.
Right off the bat common sense would tell you there's no reason to pothole the first film because it doesn't have an MB in it... use his character page or leave it unpotholed and take out Captain America from the two films to just pothole their subtitles... like we do with everything else. How much housekeeping do I have to do for these simple changes?
Yes, thank you!
Edited by 43110 on Mar 9th 2021 at 12:23:42 PM
I agree. That’s why I did it all.
Thank you though. Again, sorry.
I’m gonna see if my dad will watch The Golden Circle with me some point soon and then I’ll do Whiskey.
Again, too bad Gazelle from the first film doesn’t count, but hey it’s not like Sofia Boutella is hurting for one though because she got one.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 9th 2021 at 9:48:31 AM
....Just gonna leave this here:
- Liability
: Misa Amane, once given her memories back via the Death Note, decides to take the chess match between Light Yagami and L Lawliet and "flip the board over". To that end, she begins by forcing Mikami to call the Task Force and confess to being Kira before committing suicide, simultaneously subjecting Light and Takada to death by fire so that they can take the Death Note with them. Immediately afterwards, she relinquishes her ownership of the Death Note, ensuring that she can't incriminate herself as the 2nd Kira. With Soichiro forced to save his wife and daughter from the house fire, L investigates Mikami's death and finds two notes: one supposedly written by Mikami confessing to all of Light's crimes, and another for L's eyes only in which Misa details her plan, not identifying herself but warning L that going after her won't end well for him. With the power of Kira gone from Earth and herself left blissfully unaware, Misa retires with L to Wammy's House.
Should we put that other suggested SpongeBob description up as a page closer after the entries too? It’s okay if we don’t.
Not sure if Whiskey will be my next or if I do someone in between. Ryder from the 2009 Pelham 123 might be next before him or might come after him, so we’ll see. Stay tuned.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 9th 2021 at 10:07:46 AM
Okay, so you said a Magnificent Bastard should be a villain (but can also be an Anti-Hero or a sympathetic Anti-Villain). If that's the case I'm going to hold off on my next proposal that's from a Warner Animation film (because I'm on the Villains Wiki doing a Pure Evil proposal.)
And in case you were wondering, the MB was going to be The Stonekeeper from Smallfoot who's not quite a villain but is definitely shady enough to work here.
Alright. I’m ready to go:
What is the work?
Primal Fear is a 1996 courtroom thriller based on the 1993 novel of the same name by William Diehl. It focuses in Chicago on former assistant DA Martin Vail now being an ambulance chasing defense attorney who takes on a new sensation murder case for the free press, only to find it tests him in ways he didn’t expect. Not to mention, the defendant is not what he expected either.
Who is he and what has he done?
Aaron Stampler is a teenaged orphan who after an abusive upbringing came into the care of Archbishop Richard Rushman and became both a choir boy and altar boy. However, Aaron and the other boys ended up not being as happy as Rushman made them all out to be and Rushman himself actually being a really twisted and sick individual. It turns out Rushman forced Aaron and the other boys to perform acts of sexuality with Rushman’s secretary Linda and he filmed them on videotape for his own personal use.
Aaron eventually concocts a plan to get back at Rushman and after at some point killing Linda offscreen for her part in it (not gonna quote when he later confesses to her death due to a certain vulgar word), Aaron then breaks into Rushman’s study and then brutally murders him with a knife (none of the other boys except one are found later and it’s never outright said where they went). Covered in blood, Aaron ends up running off and being captured by police. When he’s questioned by Vail, Aaron claims he passed out in the study at about the same time he saw a dark shadow or something show up and when he came too, Rushman was dead.
Playing up the act he’s portraying as a tame and polite stutterer, Aaron is examined by psychiatrist Dr. Molly Arrington at Vail’s request and on two separate occasions that are shown (one of which with Vail), Aaron when pushed on his trauma on two different occasions becomes "Roy", a far more domineering, angry and straightforward individual far more prone to violence. This leads Molly to the belief that Aaron has multiple personalities and that "Roy" (as Aaron wanted) is the one who killed Rushman and not him. Vail attempts to bring the info to trial without changing the tactic in which he’s been handling the case and Vail also helps force old flame and assistant DA Janet Venable to bring Rushman’s abuse to light as the defendant’s motive.
Having grown to genuinely care about Aaron, Vail upon bringing him out on the stand jabs him a little at points to bring out Roy while also being compassionate to Aaron otherwise. It’s when Venable comes out to cross examine Aaron and still being extremely skeptical about him having a split personality pushes him extremely hard with the things Rushman did to him. It’s at that moment that Aaron pretending to be disheveled while Venable comes after him then "turns into" Roy and attacks her while nearly breaking her neck.
After Vail and the officers save Venable and Vail later lets Aaron know that Judge Miriam Shoan has ended the trial and he’ll go to a psychiatric hospital instead, Aaron is extremely gracious and thanks Vail tremendously while also apologizing about what happened to Venable and mentioning her neck. Vail, at first thinking nothing of it, realizes after a moment that Aaron can’t possibly remember that and it’s then that Aaron reveals it was an act all along to him. Vail is taken off guard and then admittedly impressed.
Aaron shows Vail respect for his part in things the whole scene too. That said, it’s when Aaron admits “There never was an Aaron counselor” that Vail is less happy about being tricked into helping him. Clearly shaken and effected by what he’s had a part in, Vail leaves as Aaron calls out to him that this’ll actually help Vail be stronger in the long run instead of hurt him.
Is he magnificent?
He manages to fool everyone into thinking that he’s not a cold-blooded murderer and that he’s far too timid and weak to do so. Not to mention the scheme of sowing seeds of doubt despite the evidence and playing and making the proper choices with the timing of how he presents his "weaker persona" and when his "stronger persona" comes out. While he relies on Vail for his legal expertise, Aaron knows that Vail expects him to eventually crack and become Roy when pushing too hard as well and Aaron has no issue making sure the two things work perfect together without Vail ever catching on (also, he purposely lets slip to Vail that he knew he attacked Venable by means of her neck just to see not only if Vail would catch on, but also because Aaron knew he couldn’t hurt himself at that point if Vail did catch on either).
Bastard? Too much?
From what I can tell, if the sequels to the book had been made into movies, Stampler 100% wouldn’t count for this because that version from what I’ve read apparently becomes extremely petty and cruel resorting to molestation, terrorism and mass murder on a large scale among other things. The film version is never given the chance to go that far and I definitely think that helps Aaron here rather than hurts him. While he’s a dark and disturbed individual, he manages to only do so many things to definitely be bad enough here while also still maintaining the charm as both versions of himself without any issue too (Rushman is a sure fire Asshole Victim and Linda is too from the sound of it, though there’s more ambiguity there).
Verdict?
I think he’s a
.

"Is that a...yes..." I asked hesitantly.
Here it is again for the record:
Should I pothole the first film with Captain America?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 9th 2021 at 8:59:54 AM