During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yes to Seymour with his crazy explanations, Misa, and yes to Modryn.
I'd say being a Scrappy is an auto disqualifier for a MB because they need to charm the audience and the people in the story. If they're doing one without the other, that's half counting. Though we HAVE had some controversial examples, Obito comes to mind. If it didn't count against them I might have a Danganronpa candidate to discuss that's not Nagito or Kokichi. The main problem is that they are seen as a Captain Obvious Reveal for the mastermind, due to not having the development the other survivors did, and no it's not Junko or Monaca. And they don't have as many fans as the other characters, and they killed off a fan favourite. Also there's a bit of ambiguity with them so I might need to wait for V4 or Danganronpa 4.
Edited by Klavice on Mar 8th 2021 at 10:41:21 AM
He isn't LISTED as one, but I've seen a lot of people complain about his self-righteous know-it-all attitude. There doesn't seem to be a lot of positive feedback on him that I've seen, if any. Hell, I might have proposed Mammon if it weren't for all his senseless Kick the Dog moments. He at least got one "Oh, that was good" when he scammed Nyx into giving him her magick.
Edited by Stellarvore on Mar 8th 2021 at 1:06:59 PM
Finished Goodbye Krabby Patty?.
to Grouper and based on the EP,
to Seymour.
First for John O'Hurley as well who was the first voice of Neptune on the show.
@43 I should’ve specified that the show wasn’t out yet even though Zemo’s set to return in it. Again, I think the Captain America tree is a good idea on the MB page since there’s a Guardians of the Galaxy tree on the CM page and it helps with consistency.
I saw the changes made to the Disney drafts and there’s nothing wrong with them certainly. They just surprised me and it was a little weird is all.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 8th 2021 at 11:19:17 AM
Has anyone talked about The Forbidden Kingdom before on this thread?
to Modryn, Seymour and Misa.
Hi and welcome Rayn, we have not discussed that film.
@ Stell, Unfortunately we need at least a sizeable chunk of the audience to not just hate them or they're not making the 'wow' impact to some degree. If you can find evidence he's got fans or is a Base-Breaking Character though I'd love to hear it!
Speaking of which cuz I know we're all excited: she lives! Star have at it with the potholes and lemme fill out some of those blanks with the last two I owe:
- "The Krusty Bucket": PlanKrab is Plankton's creation made of his own and Mr. Krabs' DNA. Created to steal the Krabby Patty formula for his master, PlanKrab instead uses his persuasive handshakes to take over both the Krusty Krab and Chum Bucket, becoming a beloved boss to SpongeBob and Squidward and insanely successful restauranteur while the threat he poses forces Plankton and Krabs to team up against him. Outwitting the two at every turn, it's only by witnessing the two fighting happening to trigger a split in his DNA that PlanKrab is finally beaten and even as the two halves melt by shaking hands they smile in bliss at its soothing power.
- SpongeBob's Boating Bash (2010): Seymour Scales poses as a boating instructor as a scam for quick cash, easily tricking SpongeBob into signing up for his fake "D.R.I.V.E." course. With his natural charisma, Seymour keeps his students entertained and lures much of Bikini Bottom and all of SpongeBob's friends into his con until Mrs. Puff becomes wary of his activities. Even when she manages to out his trickery, Seymour makes for his personal boatmobile to escape, loading it up with debris to hoist at SpongeBob when he pursues—even maintaining his amicable tone during the chase—accepting his arrest with only minor annoyance before taken to prison.
How about a quote from macrone? One of my favorite examples.
Hey this or the other one will make a fantastic page quote for the eventual page. In sure we'll get one.
I know at least one more surefire keeper and who knows who we could get later.
Edited by miraculous on Mar 9th 2021 at 7:05:20 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Btw chase you did his writeup and I just caught this now at the end of our boy Burger Beard's entry:
"Ever-resourceful, Burger Beard is one of the craftiest villains to ever make their way to Bikini Bottom."
He technically never goes there himself and I think your prior sentence about him electing to take what could have been a very humiliating defeat and instead be a champ about it makes a good end to the entry but it's yours and I wanted to mention this if you'd rather have that last sentence tweaked rather than taken out altogether
Let me know!
Also to throw my own hat into the ring for page descriptions, tell me how we like this: "Attention citizens of Bikini Bottom! These Diabolical Masterminds are cooking up daring schemes with their devilishly brilliant minds. If seen please contact SpongeBob SquarePants in the hopes we can tie up their plots!"
Thoughts? Yes I'm using Diabolical Mastermind colloquially but I wanna have fun with this one!
Edited by 43110 on Mar 9th 2021 at 10:13:22 AM
I cannot believe I just put tropes like The Starscream and Go Out with a Smile as potholes for characters from freaking SpongeBob. I just can't today.
And honestly, I love that 43, with just one suggestion - what if, for that first sentence, we go with "Breaking news!" instead?
Here's the new LBP 2 tree.
- LittleBigPlanet2:
- Story Campaign: The Negativitron is the ruthless yet cunning Eldritch Abomination intent on turning Craftworld into their playground. Having already incapacitated The Alliance and their assets ahead of time, The Negativitron frequently interferes with The Sackperson's attempts to stop it, usually in the form of surprise ambushes. Performing a particularly destructive one in Alvolonia, resulting in the destruction of the Huge Spaceship, its then revealed that it had the only one who could fix it, Professor Higginbotham, infected with a virus that incapacitated him ahead of time, proceeding to attempt to burn down the asylum he's in before the Alliance could get there. Managing to destroy the Huge Spaceship again upon it arriving at its base after it captures Alvolon, it corners the Alliance and reveals to them its origin, being made out of each members vices, before using their Heroic BSoD to incapacitate them and duel Sackperson 1-on-1, putting up a long and challenging fight even after the Alliance recovers.
- DC Comics Level Kit: Lex Luthor is once again the brilliant Arch-Enemy of the Justice League, as well as the leader of The Dark Alliance. Plotting to use the heroes to power his mecha suit to Take Over the World, he invades the Watchtower and abducts each member before they could react, placing them all over the world with his Dark Alliance members watching over them, each one also being guarded by harrowing platforming challenges. Operating many of the traps himself during the final stage, he manages to get his mech to full power before challenging Sackperson to a duel, putting up a good fight before being beaten.
Someone else said the same thing.
I like the description and yeah, that last sentence of Burger Beard’s entry can either be removed or reworked to be more accurate.
Something about his entry in the animated films section just didn’t feel right. This fits way more.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 9th 2021 at 8:42:05 AM
I love the fact that we are getting a Spongebob page. We are never going to top that.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
What was the CM equivalent of that would you say?
By the way, how many for the animated section now and how many more to give it a page?
I’m sure there’s more for us to find than just SpongeBob though. I mean look at 24. It lost its CM page, then got it back and now it’s getting an MB one soon too.
Also, I know the Captain America tree idea is such a small thing to push for, but that’s why I really think it should be okay. Anyone object?

Just wondering, but does an audience perceiving a character as The Scrappy affect an MB in any way? I'm hoping to look into Cogliostro sometime, but it seems a LOT of people hate him and his know-it-all attitude. Similarly, I'm also considering looking into Spawn himself. Yes, seriously. He seems to have actually matured quite a bit lately, become more cunning, though he's still a bastard, at least in attitude and, well, being what he is.
Edited by Stellarvore on Mar 8th 2021 at 12:20:28 PM