During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
The points are good, but since so much of his behavior is well-earned fatalism, that he only goes genocidal on humanity when you've gone genocidal, and that he wanted to kill Frisk so that the resets would finally stop (plus his distrust of humanity isn't unreasonable given Chara), I'm just not comfortable upvoting him. Great character yes, bastard to a strong degree less certain.
Yes to Eagle
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 18th 2021 at 9:22:44 AM
to the Eagle Bearer. That makes it 11 Magnificent bastard and if count Lighty’s statement we are going to have more pretty soon
Again, while I respect your stance, I'm going to add that Sans was willing to kill the child even before the player does anything wrong, and still threatens them if they go on a Pacifist Run. While stopping the loops is a noble goal I do feel the fact he would have murdered a potentially innocent child without Toriel's intervention pushes him over the line.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Feb 18th 2021 at 6:12:59 AM
Wait a minute Deltarune is still being worked on?
Huh, didn't know that, granted don't know a huge amount about the duology, I had assumed it was finished since it has a listed CM.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"I'm gonna have to make sure people don't confuse the "Eagle Bearer" for the actual Eagle Bearer in the write up, as Alexios/Kassandra can't count at all.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Feb 18th 2021 at 6:22:14 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Hmmm... good find Doc! This is clearly one we need to talk out quite thoroughly. Now, you'll forgive me for stumbling folks but we are very much out of the realm of my expertise so I'd like to know what exactly we're dealing with. Are there circumstances in which, out of rage towards the Player Character, he is outright willing to let all of humanity die? In that case, I'm kinda inclined to say yes because driven to that level of anger or not, he's still willing to let innocents get hurt and I can't say he's not a bastard for that.
Also I know we've got the Tales page template but for now I'm just going to keep that stuff on Video Games until our pal erazor finishes his deep dive!
I'll double down on one of these statements, having checked the dinner scene again. Sans outright admits to the player, even on a pacifist run, that they would have killed them without Toriel, without any real mention of the timelines or anything like that. It just would have been him doing his job as a humble sentry, whose job is to kill humans and bring their souls to Asgore... whose supposed goal with said souls is to cross the barrier to the surface and wipe out humanity as vengeance for his lost son. This isn't explicitly spelled out to the audience, mind, but every other monster willing to kill you, minus Mettaton, is doing so with that goal in mind.
Sans doesn't particularly want that to happen, mind, but he's very apathetic to the prospect of humanity getting wiped out even if he's just doing his job.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Feb 18th 2021 at 6:37:12 AM
Alright, one last thing since I've prattled on at length about why I feel he keeps: Sans is willing to let his friends and family die without intervention until the damage might become unfixable because he knows things can be reset and doesn't see the point in fighting it anymore. The game absolutely treats this as a bad thing, because the only character to express a similar view is Flowey, who's a murderous scumbag and The Sociopath. Sans isn't nearly as bad but to me that really says something about the character.
Well the game might call it out as bad, but audience perception is very different, considering Sans has a multi-paragraph entry on the game's Woobie page. It's played for just as much tragedy as it is for negativity - yes, Sans should be more proactive in protecting the world, but it's hard to judge him too harshly when the entire world can be reset in the blink of an eye, meaning that everything he and everyone else does ultimately means absolutely nothing. Plus, we've gotta keep in mind that before Frisk showed up, Flowey was pulling resets too, so even before Frisk shows up he has plenty of reasons for fatalism.
I'm not saying that Sans is perfect - yes, being willing to kill the human children is incredibly harsh - but he has literally no reason to believe that anything he does matters in the long run and has ample reason to believe that the world will just be reset constantly. And that same scene accidentally underscores Sans' sense of honor - while it's bad that he was willing to kill the child at all, the fact that he ultimately didn't despite not gaining anything from it is purely because he promised he wouldn't. Combine all of this with his relationships with Toriel and his brother and he's ultimately too sympathetic to count to me.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 18th 2021 at 9:50:35 AM
And I feel the dinner scene is why I feel he doesn't count because Toriel touched him (not like that...). That makes him not enough of one in my mind.
Edited by jjjj2 on Feb 18th 2021 at 9:47:38 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midAlright, due to a low amount of familiarity with the character I'm gonna trust Riley's word and switch to a yes.
Sorry, I really dislike switching this many time but Sans is in the most awkward spot for me, being an Anti-Hero who I know some but not many things about so I do apologise if I seem somewhat flip floppy regarding him.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"You're not wrong, but the endings in which he stands by and watches definitely play more towards calling the player out than calling Sans out. Yes the fact that he's willing to stand by is not a good thing, but it takes a lot to push him there, and he's crossed the Despair Event Horizon long before Frisk ever arrived. Ultimately, the endings in which he's apathetic towards the potential genocide require the player to be far worse than him.
Like the video that Doc shared - by that point, Sans has lost literally everyone he knows except for one person, including his brother. It even makes a point to call out the fact that the player murdered Toriel, Sans' Morality Pet, alongside Papyrus and a fairly large amount of other monsters to get that ending. It's hard to blame him for not particularly caring about a potential human genocide when his people have literally been culled.
I'm sorry if I'm annoying you man, that wasn't my intention. At this point I've said everything I have to offer - if he goes up, I won't fight it further.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 18th 2021 at 10:08:29 AM
Jeez I haven't been this indecisive about a candidate since Ferris Bueller. Now that I think about it they kinda have a similar personality from what I've seen (although I've seen FBDO but haven't played UT) although uhh, not really similar deeds to put it mildly.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"Hey guys so with these AC candidates popping up, there was candidate that I had up here before we removed her and after discussing her with Lord Deluxe I feel like we should re-evaluate her. You all probably know her as Juno whom I first posted and got her approved
before I said we should cut her due to her prejudice towards humanity and her experiment on human slaves as seen in
these videos
.
However after talking her with Lord Deluxe says that might not be as disqualifying as I thought and I may have been a bit too hard on her. Firstly Juno's prejudiced towards humanity doesn't seem to mirror any real world racism, and higher beings like her tend to get a pass (such as Ares from Wonder Woman) since she has a point in that humans are inferior to the Isu. Plus we do have slavers and mad scientists who qualify when their slavery and experiments were broad and didn't mirror anything too real.
Plus in Assassins Creed Valhalla, Juno as "Hyrrokin"
, manipulates Odin into giving her a sample that would allow her to make a Sage out of her husband Aita by freeing him from the bindings Angrboda/Aletheia and Loki and helping him with his plans, still showcasing her credibility as a Manipulative Bitch.
With all of plus along with the manipulations on the world (among of them brought us two MBs in Roberts and Germain) I think that Juno is still charming, brilliant, and impressive, while her views and actions against humanity aren't as disqualifying as I previously thought. Though if you guys still don't think she could count then I'll leave the issue at bay, but I just felt that we needed to re-evaluate her a little more
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 18th 2021 at 6:05:48 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff![]()
brb, gonna make a UT fan game about Sans ditching class
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Feb 18th 2021 at 7:15:48 AM

Due to Riley's arguments I'll switch back to abstain, seeing as how it was less clear cut than it originally appeared.
Riley since you seem familiar with the games would you say that Jevil would be worth a look?
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"