During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yes to Jack.
Now this... this is one I have been dying to do and in hindsight it's actually a super obvious keeper.
What's the work?
Undertale is no stranger to this thread, but just to recap, it's a hilarious yet intelligently crafted deconstruction of the entire RPG genre. You are the Human Child, who has fallen down into the Underground where the monsters reside. The monsters were forced beneath the Earth and sealed away with a barrier by humanity ages ago - the reason for this is because monsters and humans both possess SOULs, and if a monster were to merge a human SOUL with their own, otherwise weak SOUL, they would gain considerable power. Now despite all this, the monsters are actually really chill and friendly, and the whole point of the game is to either befriend them and set them free from their underground prison, or kill them all for the sake of gaining power.
Now, we've got quite a few notable customers in this game, including Mettaton who was approved last time, but who else is there to talk about? Could it be Flowey, the violently insane flora out to ruin your day? Or could it be Asgore, the sympathetic monster king trying to obtain the necessary human SOULs to break through the barrier?
Nah. It's the funny bones man.
Who is Sans?
If you've been absolutely anywhere on the internet these past five years, chances are you've seen this dopey-looking skeleton motherfucker somewhere before. Sans is a lazy, joke-loving prankster who encounters the Child once they leave the game's first area, the Ruins, with his job being to look out for humans, but he hits it off with the Child and asks them to play along with the antics of his childish brother Papyrus, who wishes to capture a human so he may join the Royal Guard. Problem is, Paps is both too nice and too dumb to actually do it, culminating in the two of you becoming friends with one another. From thereon out, Sans reappears at multiple points with new odd-jobs, occasionally taking the time to hang out with you, like inviting you over to his favorite restaurant Grillby's.
If it sounds like I'm leaving something out, it's because I am.
See, the player has the ability to save and load the game, but there's an in-universe justification for this - the player is literally rewinding time back to when they last saved, causing fluxes in the spacetime continuum where certain characters vaguely remember things that happened in previous timelines. Sans, despite having a weaker memory than most, is the only character to figure out what's going on through good guesswork, and ultimately becomes horridly depressed due to the realization that none of his actions actually matter, even giving up on trying to reach the surface simply because the player will just restart the game, sending him back underground anyway. Despite being so broken that his brother is the only thing keeping him going, Sans will still make an effort to fix things, deliberately doing everything in his power to become the player's friend so that they're satisfied with their playthrough of the game and leave them alone forever.
He also has a... dark side to him. When you hang out with Sans at the MTT Resort, he'll tell you a tale about how he struck up a friendship with Toriel, the nice goat lady the player meets at the Ruins. One day, she pleaded with him to protect any child that left the Ruins, a promise he happily kept. Sans spells it for you at the table:
- * "that promise i made to her...
* you know what would have happened if she hadn't said anything?
* ... buddy.
* ... You'd be dead where you stand."
Sans' most important story role lies within the Judgement scene right before you battle Asgore. Turns out, Sans has been keeping a very close eye on you and has been keeping track of how many monsters you've killed. Sans explains that the Experience Point system is actually a measure of your capacity for violence. Sans' answer depends on your total LV: an LV of 1 means you're on track for the game's best ending, with Sans congratulating you for not resorting to violence. Anything higher than that, he simply tells you to look closely at yourself, subtly trying to goad you into trying again without killing anybody. An LV of 19.... well, we'll get to that.
Now with all that out of the way, let's talk about the endings. In the modular Neutral endings (where the kill range was somewhere between "only Asgore" to "almost everyone"), Sans will give you a phone call telling you how things are. If your actions resulted in a good outcome for the Underground, he'll thank you, even if they're still trapped underground. If your actions made everything worse, he'll wave it off. But, god forbid if you kill Papyrus, because everything will go straight to hell. Even if that was the only bad thing you did, the captain of the Royal Guard, Undyne, will overthrow Toriel when she tries to claim the throne, and Sans will happily go along with her plans to continue Asgore's "wipe out humanity" plot just to get back at you.
In the Pacifist ending, where you complete the game without killing anyone, Sans will root for you during your final battle with Flowey/Asriel, and begins to show newfound hope now that he's reached the surface.
Now... the thing we're here for. If you kill every single monster you possibly can, you'll find yourself on track for the Genocide ending. When you reach the Judgement scene, Sans realizes you're going to wipe out everything, and no amount of resets will ever fix it. Thus...
- * "it's a beautiful day outside.
* sun's shining, bird's are singing.
* on days like these, kids like you...
* ... Should be burning in hell."
Good job, idiot. You've just triggered the hardest boss in the game.
Sans, despite being statistically the weakest monster in the game, is extremely savvy about how the game's combat system works and will break every single one of Undertale's battle rules to stop you. He uses his strongest attack first, takes the first turn, dodges all of your attacks, attacks you during your turn, and in one notable bit, can trick you into sparing him and will one-shot you as you try to hug him. As you die again and again, Sans will read your face before each rematch and deduce how many times you've lost, even figuring out that the feign won't work twice and just half-asses it when he does it every reset afterwards. Notably, Sans will skip the aforementioned "Burning in hell" speech and go straight to his first attack to catch you off guard. The reason for all of this? Sans knows killing you isn't enough - his goal is to be such a cheap, annoying boss you'll never want to play the game ever again.
If you somehow survive all of Sans' attacks, he'll become extremely tired from dodging your strikes and uses his ultimate attack... Nothing. Literally nothing. Sans' turn will never end if he refuses to do anything, locking you in the battle forever. The only way to beat him at this point is to do some cheating of your own and attack him during his turn, at which point Sans will be fatally wounded in one hit. A delirious Sans simply wanders off and dies offscreen, asking Papyrus if he wants anything from Grillby's.
Now, because of the game's insane attention to detail, I couldn't quite cover everything involving him, but this should be all the information we actually need to deduce whether he counts.
Is he smart?
Christ, yes. Sans' brilliance is a significant reason as to why he's so damn popular. Sans is enigmatic even on routes where you turn out to be a good person, trying to encourage/threaten you into playing nice so that you never come back. Several endings showcase him acting as the right-hand to whoever takes over the Underground - in the event Papyrus becomes king, Sans cuts the middleman and does his job for him, while keeping Papyrus in the dark as to what you did to his friends. In the event you don't play nice, Sans uses his knowledge of game mechanics and clever trickery to beat you, over and over and over again. Shit, he somehow manages to keep mementos from previous timelines with no explanation given - he's just that good.
Is he a bastard?
Even ignoring the threats and him willingly endangering humanity to get revenge on you in certain endings, Sans, despite being the most powerful character in the game and being highly aware of what you do almost all the time, will literally just sit back and let you kill people. While the reason is never specified, the main motives are implied to be a mix of him hoping you'll change your ways and bring back the people you killed, and him honestly just not giving a shit. His apathy is so great that with an absurd LV like 12 or something, his reaction in the Judgment scene is rarely worse than snarky passive-aggression, and even in genuinely awful endings he'll wave it off. The only way to piss him off is to kill Papyrus, and he'll still let you move on in the hopes you either reset or fuck off. It's only when the fate of the world is at stake that he decides he "can't afford to not care anymore".
Is he charming?
Sans. Is fucking. Hilarious. 90% of his screentime is him cracking jokes, and even when he's pissed off and trying to kill you, he still has the time to squeeze in some of his trademark humour. He teases his brother constantly, but he loves him deeply and they get quite a few cute moments together. While he's ultimately a broken shell, he doesn't act like it at all and he's more proactive than his apathy would make him seem.
Verdict
- "geeettttttt dunked on!!!"
This is... a hard one. Let me think.
Speaking of Undertale, does anyone know if Jevil would be good for this? From what I've seen of the game and his character page, he seems like he'd be a good fit.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"Yeah, Sans makes me a little nervous because of the bastard quality - when he becomes malicious, it's because the player deserves it, and a large amount of his other bad qualities just stem from laziness and the knowledge that the world will eventually reset rather than outright bad intent. I'm gonna abstain on him.
On second thought, no to Sans for failing the bastard quality.
Erazor puts it better than I did.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 18th 2021 at 8:27:25 AM
I have... reservations that Sans is even enough of a bastard.
EDIT:
Yeah, like, when I see apathy used as a "bastard" trait, I think of purposeful neglect that you see sometimes in CMs. Like so:
Alice: Bob! The bomb is going to destroy the world's biggest daycare! We have to do something!
Bob: Fuck them kids, bro.
San is a victim of Ripple-Effect-Proof Memory. No duh he's going to be a little fatalistic.
Edited by erazor0707 on Feb 18th 2021 at 8:40:08 AM
Exactly what I was thinking. I can't in good conscience vote someone up who is only a bastard because the character sided with Flowey. Let's compare him to Edelgard for example.
Edelgard: -Starts a war. Endangers much of humanity just from something she started. -Executes someone or multiple people on one route otherwise she is killed. -Despite fighting for a noble cause is Unfettered. -An experienced warrior.
Sans:
-Doesn't start a war, instead opting to fight back only when antagonized. -Only endangers humanity when the PC starts murdering everyone. -A martial pacifist. -Attempts to kill the PC but they deserve it. He's also The Fettered.
Edited by Klavice on Feb 18th 2021 at 5:36:17 AM
I... have to disagree with the notion that Sans fails the bastard part. If not for his promise to Toriel, he would have killed the protagonist, who is a child, in cold blood. Yeah, he doesn't do it in the game itself unless the protagonist is actively genocidal, but he spares the child because he likes Toriel and not for any moral reason. That put together with the fact he's fine with letting everyone die... I've honestly gotta say I think Sans is bad enough for this as an Anti-Hero.
I just wanna point out one thing about Sans:
Isn't his lack of participation in stopping you from killing everyone portrayed as nothing but a bad thing? There are other characters as broken as he is, and yet they at least do something about their situation.
Also, isn't it implied that Sans also killed one of the souls, or am I misremembering things?
Oh hey, two minds think alike.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Feb 18th 2021 at 5:54:56 AM
I do have one rebuttal. This is that one, specific ending I was talking about
. If you killed all the major bosses but Undyne, she takes over the Underground and intends to wage war on humanity, starting by tracking you down for what you did. Sans briefly muses about how the "nice lady behind the door" isn't saying anything anymore before offering a thinly veiled death threat. By all rights, he is okay with Undyne's attempt to wipe out humanity if it means you get what's coming to you. Yes, you deserve it, but "kill all humans" is still a rather extreme measure to take in such a situation.
to Jack but
to Sans. A lot of feels way to ambiguous to me, especially considering someone like Ezio had far more visceral consequences to his morally ambiguous actions.
Anyways, Lighty mentioned on the previous page that he likely had more planned for the Assassin's Creed games and there's one I want to throw out to you guys. With that franchise, we've only really focused on people with nation spanning manipulations, but I want to propose a minor villain that has an impressive track record despite the major lack of resources at his disposal. Here's my candidate from Assassin's Creed: Odyssey, which I've been digging into lately.
Who is the "Eagle Bearer"?
The "Eagle Bearer" is the Arc Villain of one the free DLC missions released after launch titled One Really, Really Bad Day. Nothing more than an opportunistic mercenary, the "Eagle Bearer" is an imposter that took on the identity of the player character, the actual Eagle Bearer. As the player can be either the characters Alexios or Kassandra, I'm going to refer to them as the player for simplicity's sake, and the fake as the imposter to prevent confusion. The imposter took on the guise of the player and even acquired a pet chicken named Chikaros, in reference to the player's eagle Ikaros, to capitalize on the player's status as a famed mercenary to take lucrative contracts in their name.
The imposter is hired by a group of pirates to sabotage the defenses of the coastal town of Alponos they intended on plundering. The imposter decides to use the fame of the player to get hired by the lead guard to perform tasks around the village to prepare for the coming invasion, only to cleverly perform his sabotage. After getting paid by both the pirates and the village, the imposter prepares to leave until he learns the real one is coming to the clear their name. The imposter sits back and watches his sabotage blow up in the player's face and spread further chaos.
Now, as for the sabotage itself. First, the imposter goes to help the village blacksmith light his forge to make weapons for the defense, but causes the forge to explode instead. This destroys the forge and blinds the blacksmith in the process. The player later helps the blind blacksmith find new tools and ore, only for the blacksmith to run into his equipment and get crushed to death beneath them when they fall on him. Next, the imposter tells the village's horse breeder that he knows of a magical fruit that will turn horses into pegasi. He convinces her to lend him the guard captain's prize stallion to retrieve the fruit, only to sell the stallion to the pirates and come back to tell the breeder it was stolen. Although, he does sell her the "magical" apple he retrieved for a hefty price. When the player later rescues the stallion, the horse breeder feeds it the apple and rides her new "pegasos" off a cliff to their dooms. Finally, the imposter meets the village hero who claims to be the legendary Ajax reborn. Beloved by the village, the imposter sends the reborn hero on a wild goose chase to find a helmet that would make him invincible, with the intent for him to get killed and demoralize the village. The player finds him wearing the magical helmet and escorts him back, only for the now invincible Ajax to demand the player set him on fire to prove his invincibility to rally the village. The player complies and Ajax turns out to not be fireproof.
With the imposter watching from afar and enjoying the real Eagle Bearer spread his chaos even more, the pirates launch their assault on the weakened village. The player manages to fight off the pirates as they're a One-Man Army, and finally gets a clue as to the whereabouts of the imposter from the guard captain. The player finally confronts the imposter and both admonishes him for causing so many deaths for money and praises him for his ingenuity. The imposter shoots back, frankly rather accurately, that they are Not So Different and could accomplish so much together. Odyssey is the first game in the series that gives player choice in missions, so the imposter's fate can vary. The player can kill him and his chicken in a challenging encounter, invite him to join their crew, or have sex with the imposter and then kill him or invite him to the crew. Even though the imposter can simply die, most outcomes of the quest have him become a Karma Houdini and even get into a better position than when he started.
Is he magnificent?
The "Eagle Bearer" certainly has the intelligence aspect down as he nearly singlehandedly brought an entire town to its knees using his own ingenuity and just the tools he had at hand, which is quite something as every other listed character are people in positions of great power. As for charisma, the old blacksmith described the imposter as a nice and charming young man so it's evident that he has enough flair to successfully pull off the Eagle Bearer persona to those unfamiliar with the actual player. He's also a fairly smooth operator when confronted in person as he speaks to the player with respect and never once backs down even when violence breaks out.
Is he a bastard?
Sure enough. He's more than willing to set up innocent people to die if he can profit off it. Nonetheless, he's no where near as bad as most of the game's villains as they can get quite depraved.
Any mitigating factors?
Like I mentioned before, he doesn't operate anywhere near the level most of the listed characters do, but I think that's fine as he's far lower than them on the totem pole yet has quite a track record for the span of a single small questline.
Final Verdict?
I think the "Eagle Bearer" is a solid candidate and deserves a
.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Feb 18th 2021 at 5:58:04 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.I don't think it's implied that Sans has killed anyone else, but I'd argue being willing to murder a child if not for carng about Toriel and not intervening until the timeline is at risk of being irreparably damaged absolutely is bad enough for me. I'll say yea to him.
Yes to the Eagle Bearer.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Feb 18th 2021 at 5:59:06 AM

to Jack, add that to the pile of MB's written by Tropers, hope to get one of those myself some day.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"