During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Honestly Reddish re-reading that bit about the non-serial movie for Woz there, I'd be down to hear the case on that version as well. Weird as it sounds, he's still clearly a smart, charming fella there and even if it's different, he gets style points in another way for that building a friendship and loyalty through the work.
Honestly at that point it seems like "Good show, let's do this again" and I'm inclined to take that as your boy viewing the prince as a Worthy Opponent.
Did we ever discuss zagato from Magic Knight Rayearth ? I know he was listed once but can't find much discussion.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Draft for The Hood:
- Thunderbirds: The Hood, real name Trangh Belegant, is a psychic criminal mastermind with a grudge against the Thunderbirds, specifically their father Jeff, for leaving him to die in a mine collapse. Staging a fire on an oil rig, The Hood plants one of his men among the workers to install a tracking device onto one of their planes, allowing The Hood to track the Thunderbirds back to their base before attacking a satellite and trapping the Thunderbirds onboard while he takes over their base. Revealing himself to them, The Hood reveals his plan is to cause massive worldwide economic chaos using the Thunderbirds' equipment to destroy the Thunderbirds' reputation. When Jeff's youngest son Alan attempts to intervene, The Hood systematically captures Alan, his friends, and the Thunderbirds' allies before departing for London. After a fight with Alan and his friends in the Bank of London, The Hood finds himself dangling over a drilling machine and accepts his fate before being rescued and arrested.
Edited by k410ren on Feb 18th 2021 at 2:05:09 PM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsHey all, so 43 mentioned this at some point, but the entry for How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying is literally just one run-on sentence, like so:
- J. Pierrepont Finch is a window-washer who gets a mailroom job at a company by pretending he knows the CEO; gets promoted to head of the mailroom that same day by shmoozing the former head; turns down that promotion knowing that he would be stuck there for years and screws over another employee; gets a job as a junior executive by being so "humble", tricking the CEO into thinking he had been working all night long on a Saturday and that he is an alumnus of the CEO's college; gets his own office and secretary as a result of this; tricks that secretary into seducing his boss whose job he steals; gets appointed Vice President in charge of Advertising by outing the actual VP candidate as a student of the rival of the CEO's alma mater; steals an idea from a fellow employee about a treasure hunt and pitches it; and finally, when the treasure hunt idea fails and he is facing being fired for the disaster it caused, he forces everyone else at the company to help him by suggesting to the Chairman of the Board to fire them all, but reminding them that they are all in a "Brotherhood of Man", and then when The Chairman retires he names Finch his replacement.
I wanted to take a shot at rewriting it, so here's my take:
- J. Pierrepont Finch, a window washer in New York City, decides to make a name for himself in the world of business through illegitimate means. Beginning by pretending to know the president of the company, Mr. Biggley, to get a job in the mailroom, Finch later turns down an offer to head the department, making his supervisors promote him to a junior executive for his "selflessness". After discovering that his new secretary is Mr. Biggley's mistress, he tricks her into flirting with his supervisor, getting him fired and taking his job. Forging a fake connection with Mr. Biggley by pretending to share his alma mater, Finch outs the Vice President of Advertising as an alumnus of a rival school and takes his job, later conning Mr. Biggley by stealing a coworkers idea and passing it off as his own. When the idea falls apart, Finch saves his own job by outing his coworker Bud Frump as Mr. Biggley's nephew to the Chairman of the Board, who then fires Frump and, upon his retirement, has Filch take his former position.
Cool, added in
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 18th 2021 at 3:38:12 PM
to Woz, Snake, and Barnes. Get well soon, Bull.
Time for an effortpost from one of my childhood favorite sitcoms. I overlooked this at first but now that I rewatched it I am so glad the show actually managed to produce a candidate.
ACW was originally supposed to do the effortpost but 43110 said ACW is ok with me doing it instead so.
What is the work?
Everybody Hates Chris is an American sitcom that is loosely based on the life of Chris Rock. Set in the 1980s, it revolves around the home and school life of Chris, featuring his easygoing, although money worrying, father Julius; sassy, if somewhat overreacting, mother Rochelle; younger brother Drew (who gets all the girls Chris can't); and "daddy's girl" sister Tonya. It also features the equally, if not more, hapless Greg, Chris's best friend and confidant from school.
'Who is she? What has she done?
Ms. Rivera, real name Karen Rodriguez is a One-Shot Character who appears in "Everybody Hates the English Teacher". She is the English teacher of Tattagla high school.
Assigning the class to do a report on the novel, "Invisible Man". When Chris does his report on the movie, "The Invisible Man" instead, Rivera decides to go along with Chris' idea and films a presentation of the movie. When the school calls the Superintendent, Rivera manages to turn the situation around by revealing that she is an American citizen and receives praise for her work.
Loading her car up, Rivera disguises herself as a Mormon under the name of "Perez" and drives past the Puerto Rican border, where it's revealed she embezzled a quarter million dollars from the teachers' pension plan in Utah.
Driving back to Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn to say goodbye to Chris, her favorite student. Rivera drives off to Hollywood having successfully evaded the police.
Is she charming? Is she magnificent?
Yes. In this show filled with offensive, racial humor and prejudice characters Rivera's charm shines through that kind of humor and she is one of the very few teachers to actually get along with Chris while being a very successful con artist as she's stated to have evaded capture for eight years and even when her cover is blown by the Invisible Man article she drives to Puerto Rico and hides in Utah showing that she knows how to think on her feet.
Is she a bitch?
She's a con artist who stole the school's money and has apparently been at large for eight years. However her friendly relationship with Chris shows that she is very much a Lovable Rogue.
Her competition?
The show definitely has it's slew of unpleasant characters from the school bully Joey Caruso, racist teacher Ms. Morello and the recurring criminal characters like Kill Moves, Mr. Omar and Risky however none of them can count due to not being particularly cunning and often being part of the racist and stereotypical kind of humor that detracts from any kind of magnificence.
None of that is the case with Rivera as she successfully makes her escape while keeping her dignity and charm intact.
Leaning yes to Karen.
BTW, DrUnknown is busy so I'll take care alone of our planned collab and I'll post the EP in a few hours.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Oh damn, I'm sorry guys I jumped the gun significantly. Got too excited when I saw one person liking it and got overzealous. If there are any objections, I'm willing to hear them out. Totally my fault, and I promise to not do that again.
Yes to Rivera/Rodriguez
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 18th 2021 at 4:21:03 AM

A clear yes.
to Barnes...or Sergeant as he’s only known throughout the second movie (first he appears in).
Brad Jones pretty much compared him to The Punisher when he reviewed both movies.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 18th 2021 at 9:44:45 AM