During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Welcome to the thread Javert; a yes to Thompson and Alessa.
As for that G.I. Joe, quote, I'm a little unnerved by how vicious it sounds, but with both halves at once, it kinda perfectly hits both Magnificent and Bastard, so I'll go with a tentative yes.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 11th 2021 at 9:43:44 AM
The only thing that makes me iffy of Alessa is how she kills Christabella. She sends barbed wire up through Christabella's vagina and then rips her in half from the inside. It's unambiguously meant to be seen as sexual violence, and while the victim is certainly awful, it's enough to make me abstain.
Edit: Here's the death scene. I know we have a high tolerance for an Asshole Victim but that is incredible brutality.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Feb 11th 2021 at 6:21:03 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Having taken a glance at her page on the wiki
, I'm confused about what to think. It seems that Revelations, the other movie, retcons a whoooooooole lot of Alessa's character to the point that they are almost completely different people. We've got a victim of bad writing here, and that gets mirky very fast.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 11th 2021 at 9:16:44 AM
My thing there: Christebella was the head of the cult behind Alessa's torment and a certified Complete Monster. It might have sexual imagery but there's nothing making it explicit Alessa was trying to play out a rape on her either, just a Cruel and Unusual Death to someone very much deserving one. I'm not too concerned about the sequel if it's outright contradicting the character in the first, like we did with that Rusty Hook guy.
We approve people who do sexually iffy things, that isn't outright rape, and the person who's receiving it inflicted great harm on the perpetrator, so I'm keeping my
. If the next movie retcons everything we might as well treat them as separate continuities, and as for the quote I agree with Star it seems too vicious.
Alright, much with my own Claw proposal, it sounds like the films are so drastically different that it wouldn't really be fair to say one film's content should disqualify her, so 'Yes' to Alessa. Christabella is a horrid, nasty, vile bitch who burns children alive as slow as possible, her fate is brutal but more than deserved and it isn't done for the purposes of rape—just to kill her as gruesomely as possible.
I think the Hawk quote hits the right amount of factors to be a pretty solid quote, tbh. It talks of how he manipulates people, how he's a WIE, and how he's a cold-blooded bastard. I think it's one of the few quotes that actually explicitly spells out pretty much all the criteria needed for the trope lol
Edited by Ravok on Feb 11th 2021 at 6:28:03 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!A draft for Agent Thompson.
- ‘’The Adjustment Bureau’’: Agent Thompson is a high-ranking member of the Adjustment Bureau, nicknamed “The Hammer” for his efficient and heavy-handed tactics to convince people to comply with the Bureau’s plan for humanity. Brought in to force David Norris and Elise Sellas apart to fulfill the plan, Thompson explains that Elise was planted by the Bureau to inspire David to make a speech that brings him back from the brink of defeat after losing an election due to a costly mistake and his role in their plans is to become President of the United States. Thompson then reveals that Elise and David will never reach their dreams together, injuring Elise’s ankle and goading David into hitting him to make a point about David’s impulsiveness being brought to the forefront by Elise, convincing David to abandon Elise so they can fulfill their dreams. When David chooses Elise once more, Thompson leads the efforts to stop David, trapping David and Elise on the Bureau’s top floor and only being stopped because the Bureau’s leader changes the plan, whereupon Thompson respectfully stands down.
Edited by k410ren on Feb 11th 2021 at 9:35:17 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Ah dang, you beat me to it!
Only thing I would recommend is cutting Deus ex Machina - I'm nervous with that trope going in write-ups in general, but maybe that's just me - and putting Hit Me, Dammit! on "goading David into hitting him" instead.
Whats the work?
Black Beard: Legend of the Pyrate King is a comic by Dynamite comics written Eduardo (writer of The Blair Witch Project) Sanchez and Gregg (Producer of The Blair Witch Project) Hale are joined by Robert Napton and Jamie Nash to present the ultimate adventure tale of a bygone age, when pyrates ruled the waters! Beginning with his childhood and carry through to his bitter end, Blackbeard's legacy has never been explored.
Who is Blackbeard ?
The one and only pirate king. Edward Teech was once a young boy who saw his father hanged by the authorities giving him a hatred of the ways of kings and such. Being forcefully conscripted into a sailing ship as a teenager, he quickly rose to prominence. When the cruel captain murdered his friend, Teach used chains to murder him in his sleep before escaping. He then is able to escape and dodge the authorities using guerilla tactics. He says he won't go down without a fight and Takes on and beats most of his captors.
This impresses A pirate captain Horingold who takes him on board as a member of his crew. Anyway they begging by infiltrating a ship and announcing that everyone should surrender. They don't but it strikes fear in their hearts enough to throw them off balance. Teach uses marbles to trip one of them to get the advantages and win the fight.
Anyway They eventually find an abandoned slave ship. Horingold impressed by Teeach says he can have it as his own. Anyway a vicious storm hits and forced an evacuation but Teach stays behind in order to free the slaves and save them. He ends up washing a shore and the two become close friends.
Anyway a French ship is spotted here and the plan begins. Teach charms the Labdning party into following H in by offering them freedoms and money. So they smuggle him in and secretly kill the captain. They take over and convince the rest of the crew to join them offering them freedom.
Anyway those that say no are left go buy branded with his ring as a mark off Teach who Christians himself Blackbeard. This is meant to shore fear into the enemies that they end up surrendering without a fight.
He becomes quite a successful pirate and lives the high life. Delivering his own personal war against the kings and generals who took so much from him and others. Leaving survivors in order to continue his menance.
Anyway eventually Maynard is sent against him but Blackbeard doesn't fear death and prepares to go out in a blaze of glory.
Magnificent?
Both a large scale plotter and a man quick with tactics. He can use his surroundings to his advantage or use stuff like marbles to trip his opponents. He charms people into doing what he says which allows him to run rings around the competition. Intentionally invoking fear in his opponents to throw them off and allow H in the capture of huge ships. He even goes out a badass. Fighting without fear to the end.
Bastard?
He massacres ships bit he's also fairly balanced. He believes that they crown has taken from them so much its only right they take it back. Hes fair though as he does spare people of they surrender. Partly to keep the fear level up but he's not needlessly bloody
Hes also genuinely noble. His backstory sucks and he cares for his crew. He genuinely cares for his friend : the slave he saves and the two are close. He also has standards. He enjoys brothels and woman but rape is a big no no and he even stops one and saves the woman that was being accosted by strangers.
Conclusion ?
Decent keeper
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Blackbeard.
Any thoughts on the Deus ex Machina pothole?
Edited by k410ren on Feb 11th 2021 at 9:59:12 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsMaybe Villain Respect works better for him calming accepting the change?
Anybody for me trying Dick and Jane Harper from the 2005 Fun with Dick & Jane sometime?
Just remove the pothole altogether actually since it seems like a weird trope to apply to an MB entry anyway.
Is Claw’s original name Scolex gonna be in his writeup or is it gonna be left out since it connects him to the first movie where he doesn’t count?
Given nothing he does in the first movie disqualifies him, there’s nothing wrong with having the connection. Jafar in the first movie is briefly mentioned in his entry. Claw’s entry would clearly put more focus on the second movie than the first in the same way.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 11th 2021 at 7:11:39 AM

Big 'Yes' to the Hawk quote
I myself saw SH recently and was gonna throw Alessa up, but—correct me if I'm wrong—doesn't she show up in the sequel to some capacity? I never got around to watching it, hence why I never proposed her since I didn't have all of the info, and while I'm sure she probably still counts, have you seen the sequel that features her?
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!