TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#37501: Feb 11th 2021 at 6:50:04 AM

[tup] to Nadine

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#37502: Feb 11th 2021 at 6:57:07 AM

Heck yes to Nadine and Talbot, great going!

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#37503: Feb 11th 2021 at 6:57:33 AM

Yes to Nadine aka Dragon number 3 who’s more effective and charming than her boss!

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#37504: Feb 11th 2021 at 7:55:03 AM

Speaking of Naughty Dog, does anyone know if TLOU (haven't played) or Crash Bandicoot (have played) have ever been discussed here?

I know a lot of Crash villains are goofy but hey, we've had a few goofy keeper from other goofy franchises.

As for TLOU, well I have no idea to be honest. Didn't play the first one and heard a... wide variety of claims made about the second one.

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#37506: Feb 11th 2021 at 8:03:52 AM

[up][up]From what I've heard everyone is too broken or horrible to count in TLOU or its sequel. Their very nihlistic.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#37507: Feb 11th 2021 at 8:07:39 AM

I'm gonna say nobody in the Last of Us keeps for MB

MalleoWeegee Evolution Requires Sacrifice. from Eurasia Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
#37508: Feb 11th 2021 at 8:09:04 AM

Crash has several keepers for MB, but not TLOU.

"I SHALL UNIFY THE WORLD! FROM ALPHA TO OMEGA... BOW DOWN TO ME!!!"
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#37509: Feb 11th 2021 at 8:14:49 AM

Yeah, TLOU is one cynical motherfucker. Crash could have some fun candidates, though.

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#37510: Feb 11th 2021 at 8:32:45 AM

[up] Didn't they also do Jak and Daxter? Seeing as how I recall you mentioning liking Ratchet and Clank I think that would be right up your alley Dood. Not familiar with either franchise though, so whether someone counts from either is a mystery to me.

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#37511: Feb 11th 2021 at 8:36:03 AM

Could see Crash having some zany fun keepers!

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#37512: Feb 11th 2021 at 8:36:06 AM

Jak has Rayn

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#37513: Feb 11th 2021 at 8:36:53 AM

I never had a PS 2, but judging by cutscenes I watched back in the day, there might be a keeper from Jak X, but again I haven't played it. She's already approved. (*again we don't have a nervous sweat emoji!*)

Edited by jjjj2 on Feb 11th 2021 at 11:37:45 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#37514: Feb 11th 2021 at 8:40:15 AM

[up][up][up] Same, probably also applies to Spyro although I suppose those Skylanders ones indirectly count as them anyway.

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#37515: Feb 11th 2021 at 9:18:42 AM

I was gonna surprise everyone with my Disney candidate, but there’s the question though as to whether or not he’s even worth it, so I’ll reveal him now and take the temperature of the thread:

It’s Constantine from Muppets Most Wanted.

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#37516: Feb 11th 2021 at 9:23:31 AM

[up] Hmm... I've seen the 2011 Muppets but not that one. Isn't he Kermit's doppelganger? Honestly, if you wanna go for it I'd be up to see it and honestly it would be really funny if he did count.

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Trashman91 Since: Oct, 2018
#37517: Feb 11th 2021 at 9:37:19 AM

I saw that movie when it came out and I could see him qualifying. Just look at how he's able to charm Miss Piggy.

Also, should I put my Zamasu write-up in the drafts page or is that already covered?

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#37518: Feb 11th 2021 at 10:01:12 AM

So, we all remember Jafar and Lex Luthor and how they "upgraded" to this trope in sequel stories to their own? Well I wanna discuss a similar character who—while not written nearly as well nor from as quality of works—nonetheless I think fits those credentials.

What's the work?

The...hilariously bad Inspector Gadget is a late 90s live-action adaptation of the classic cartoon character of the same name. Basic story, for all unaware? After a freak accident, an average cop is transformed into a decked-out cyborg named "Inspector Gadget", who clumsily tries to save the day from the malicious Dr. Claw while Gadget's niece, Penny, often does the most detective work and heavy lifting for her uncle.

And while the first movie took itself too seriously and was plagued by pretty shite writing...the sequel embraced the campiness, replaced every single actor, and—while by no means a good movie—is surprisingly entertaining and brings us a suitably wicked baddie.

Who is Dr. Claw? What makes him a candidate?

Alright, so, in the original film, Claw is a Corrupt Corporate Executive named Sanford Scolex, who loses his hand in a stupid accident and has it replaced with a robotic claw. He created a doppelganger of Inspector Gadget to wreak havoc on Riverton city and frame Gadget before ultimately being arrested. Scolex is...not at all this trope, being a Smug Snake dickhead who often gets humiliated and is more of a powerful bully than anything else. A byproduct of the film trying to be Darker and Edgier in its own way.

In the sequel, however, Claw becomes a true threat despite the film becoming more cheesy and lighthearted. The sequel, connected to the original only by the strongest Broad Strokes, reinterprets Claw as a genuine supervillain whose face is always obscured, an amazing fashion sense, and even a white cat for him to pet. Also a car whose license plate literally says "''Crym Pays" [lol]

He's practically an entire different character, but since the movie is technically a sequel, I figured I'd elaborate on the Scolex connection.

So, Claw kicks the movie off by tunnelling out of prison, leaving behind only a voodoo doll of Inspector Gadget stabbed a couple dozen times (Gadget: "Eesh, don't think he's still holding a grudge, do you?"). Setting up shop at the abandoned "Bowl-Rite" factory for bowling supplies, Claw reunites with his new-old minions Brick and McKibble, revealing them his new plan: to break into the "impregnable" Federal Reserve located in Riverton and come away with countless fortunes.

Laying out his plan, Claw states that he needs 3 things for his "ultimate superweapon": Ion fuel cells, a protoid laser, and a ruby. "As well as other miscellaneous knick-knacks." Claw then goes about putting out a flipping ad in the Classifieds section of the newspaper for evil minions to assist in his schemes.

"Wanted: Single Evil Genius (SEG) seeks Minions for rewarding opportunity in the field of world domination. Extensive rap sheet required."

Upon recruiting his men, Claw has them pull off a successful robbery of the ion fuel cells before he reveals the protoid laser will be present at a Riverton Science Convention. So as to enable its theft, Claw lures Gadget to the Convention then has his disguised minions secretly plant a control chip onto Gadget of Claw's own design. Claw then uses a remote control to gleefully send Gadget on a freak-out during the Convention, using his knowledge that Gadget has been experiencing glitches to ruin his reputation and get him fired, trash the convention, and distract the audience while his minions swipe the protoid laser.

Claw then commences the final gathering phase of his plan: a massive, hefty ruby, being shown off at the Riverton museum on loan from an Indian raja. Disguising himself and his minions as a jazz band, Claw sneaks into the museum during a gala, waiting for an opportune time to show himself and incapacitate the entire building...with laughing gas.

When the new robo-cop of Riverton, "G2" shows up and tries to save the day, Claw reveals he anticipated her arrival and snuck in a giant flipping magnet to put her out of commission while he escaped, making godawful puns about his "magnetic charm" the whole way. The bastard.

Arriving back at base, Claw catches young Penny in the act of spying on them, and though her dog Brain manages to escape, Claw captures Penny and even offers her a chance to join him in a deleted scene, knowing she's actually competent and intelligent unlike her uncle.

Bantering with Penny the whole way as he reveals his ultimate superweapon, the "time displacement laser", Claw gives the full extent of his plan: bouncing the laser his constructed weapon fires off of a satellite directly over Riverton, sending it crashing back down to Riverton and freezing the entire city in place. Claw actually succeeds in this scheme, leaving all of Riverton frozen in place with only Gadget and G2 avoiding its effects thanks to Brain warning them ahead of time through...a long story involving technology that lets dogs talk lmao.

Striding into the Federal Reserve and bypassing all security with ease, Claw begins loading up hundreds of gold bars into his escape vehicle, bragging "Tomorrow we'll hit Fort Knox, then next day the Louvre. So much to steal, so little time...wait! I have all the time in the world! Hahahaha!"

Confronted by Gadget and G2, Claw uses Penny as a hostage to hop into his escape car with Brick and McKibble—ordering the rest of his minions to "Get the good guys!"—and flee. Pursued by Gadget, Claw uses a bevy of built-in weapons plus more awful puns to fight off Gadget, until the Inspector's persistence leads Claw to strap Penny into a bomb-laced cart and kick her out of the vehicle to distract Gadget while he flees.

Luckily, Gadget saves Penny and has time to use "Go-Go Gadget Bubblegum!" to sticky Claw's escape car and capture Brick and McKibble...just in time for Claw to reveal he had a massive fuckin personally designed rocket ship built into the escape vehicle itself, which he uses to blast off and escape justice, happily proclaiming "You may have won this round, but I'll get you next time, Gadget!"

Penny, using Claw's catchphrase "Crime Always Pays" to access the time displacement laser, reverses the effects it has on Riverton and saves the city from eternal freezing, reigniting the public's faith in Gadget and saving the world from Claw, who continues to scheme for a sequel that never saw the light of the day.

Is Claw magnificent?

In the first film? Nope, not at all.

In the sequel? Claw's pretty much an entirely different character, and one who absolutely is magnificent. Claw's a Laughably Evil Card-Carrying Villain who hams up every scene he's in, be it by laughing about his evil scheme or insulting his bumbling minions. Claw has zero right to be as entertaining or cunning as he is for the type of movie he's in, but he's a surprisingly competent, clever schemer who plays everyone to his fiddle all the way to the end. Gadget's an idiot, but Claw manipulates a lot of people, not just Gadget, and even flat-out admits that he knows Penny is his true worst threat, and actually shows the young girl proper respect for it.

Claw's always-disguised face and constantly-gruff voice do impact the "charisma" a lil bit, but I'd say he pretty well makes up for it with the very large amount of puns he makes and how much fun he seems to have in just being the "bad guy."

Claw's not infallible, and has goofy moments (like coming across a doodle his minions made of him saying "I'm so evil, blah blah blah!" and staring at it with shock before snarling and muttering "Moving on..."), but for the...hilariously campy film he's in, Claw fits the tone amazingly and all while coming up with some ridiculous but intelligent plans that work out. He even pulls off a total Karma Houdini to escape without repercussions, having basically succeeded in his plan to rip off the Federal Reserve and in such style.

Is Claw a bastard?

Yep, even if we remove his actions in the original film, Claw still comes up plenty bad for threatening Penny with death, trying to freeze Riverton in perpetual time displacement, and ditching all of his minions to be arrested when it suits him so he can escape to fight another day.

Final Verdict?

I think Claw hits the trope nicely in the sequel. By technicality I guess we have to factor the original in since its....sort of....the same canon, but Claw as presented in the sequel is a pretty solid Keep for a film like this, and whether we wanna say he "evolved" into the trope or the sequel is so disconnected in tone, style, actors, everything that he's basically his own character, I think he counts.

Edited by Ravok on Feb 11th 2021 at 10:15:42 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#37519: Feb 11th 2021 at 10:03:07 AM

Uhhh...yeah! [tup] to Claw!

Dumb movies, but the first is a childhood guilty pleasure certainly and the second has a couple improvements despite how utterly cartoonish it is. Another for the Disney page!

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 11th 2021 at 10:12:24 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#37520: Feb 11th 2021 at 10:03:11 AM

Oh hey I was thinking of him.

[tup]Dr Claw.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#37521: Feb 11th 2021 at 10:16:21 AM

Eh he recovers, I don't see why not. [tup] Claw. They Other Darrined everybody except for the car. That's somewhat impressive (although not in a good way).

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#37522: Feb 11th 2021 at 10:18:11 AM

It's pretty much less a sequel and more it's own movie if we're being honest. [lol]

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#37524: Feb 11th 2021 at 10:26:34 AM

First for both Rupert Everett and Tony Martin.

Yeah, Scolex in the first film is definitely a petty, smug and overtly crazy (by the end) individual, but yeah, when he fully becomes Claw in the second one, he’s clearly grown into the role and focused himself way better on his goals (in both cases, much like Jafar). I count them as the same character.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#37525: Feb 11th 2021 at 10:27:53 AM

I would rather not add Rupert Everett's name to the mb by actor list for this film thanks to how loose the continuity is and how he does absolutely nothing their.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

Total posts: 82,595
Top