During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
No worries on the potholes there erazor, STAR's been a good lad about 'em and he enjoys adding them. I like how creative he is with them and how open he is about discussing options. Honestly STAR as long as it's not too much of a hassle for you I'm totally cool with you pretty well running the show on that front!
Hi Lore. Are you familiar with The A-Team?
I assume that is why Ducky pinged you.
Abstain on Shizel.
Well, thanks anyways. I think he just wanted to ask someone else if the writeup was accurate.
Edit: Well, Ducky, looks like you have some homework.
Addendum: 1500 pages. Yay.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Feb 10th 2021 at 12:38:49 PM
I know it vaguely through pop culture osmosis but I've never actually watched it. Also his entry mentioned pinging me about Stockwell and I know nothing about the ban evader or their write up.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Feb 10th 2021 at 9:00:47 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Having just glanced at Lore's edits, I'm confused as to why you think he'd know anything about The A-Team...
Okay that's funny.
Edited by jjjj2 on Feb 10th 2021 at 12:26:32 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midNot sure if Stockwell ever got a sex operation then had it reversed as part of his crazy plans like Hunter Gathers did...
Anyways, to do what I actually came on tonight to do.
The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall: Gortwog gro-Nagorm, Warlord of the Orsimer, is a surprisingly skilled diplomat and political genius who sought to create an orcish homeland respected by the other races of Tamriel. Acquiring a letter revealing the ancient Numidium and the means to control it were in High Rock, Gortwog sent copies to all the rulers in Illiac Bay to create strife and a chaotic scramble for the artifact while making his own moves toward it. He aids the witch mistress of King Lysandus to put his spirit to rest to secure her aid in acquiring Numidium's power source, and weakens the nation of Wayrest by releasing a shocking biography that shames Wayrest's queen. Ultimately drawn into a cataclysmic event that warped space and time, Gortwog's schemes nevertheless came to fruition with the creation of the orcish kingdom of Orsinium and the recognition of his people as valued citizens of the Empire.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Feb 10th 2021 at 9:45:07 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.I got two more Morrowind proposals planned, one in particular for Crassius Curio will be especially fun considering his reputation among the fandom.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Feb 10th 2021 at 9:55:56 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Since I didn’t get an answer before, I hope nobody minds if I ask again: Anybody in the Transformers movies worth discussing?
Also, the Disney character I thought of that I plan to look into again sometime...actually, they’ll be a surprise.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 10th 2021 at 10:59:40 AM
I'm no authority on the matter as I haven't seen the films much, but off the bat I would say I'm doubtful anyone counts. It's a film series where the villains seem more concerned with how much stuff they can blow up VS being charming, outsmarting the heroes, having good writing, etc
Now then, to properly round out the Uncharted candidates, let's discuss two entries in the franchise: Uncharted 4: A Thief's End and the spin-off Uncharted: The Lost Legacy.
Who is Nadine Ross? What makes her a candidate?
Nadine Ross, played by the ever-awesome Laura Bailey, functions as The Dragon (yes, again) to Rafe Adler in A Thief's End. The head of a Private Military company dubbed "Shoreline", Nadine has been hired by and working with Rafe for months in trying to find clues to lead them to the lost treasure of Henry Avery.
Against Nadine's better judgement, Rafe allows their treasure hunting to attract Nathan Drake and Victor Sullivan, Rafe's own obsessive desire to "beat" Nate endangering their operation. When Nate infiltrates an auction of an artifact that will help find Avery's treasure, Nadine catches him in the process of stealing it, kicks off her heels, and lays a surprisingly brutal beatdown on the hero in an attempt to swipe it from him, but Nate escapes.
Later tracking Nate and his brother Sam (who Nadine has a personal grudge against thanks to him turning on her and Rafe earlier) down, Nadine almost captures the two, and takes note of their reactions to her men in the area to realise the place is booby trapped and just barely leap to safety when one of her soldiers sets off a trap.
As Nadine and Rafe use their own intelligence plus the Drake brothers' own findings to hone in on the treasure, Nadine continues to function as a sane contrast to Rafe, advocating for the murder of the Drakes any chance it arises while Rafe just wants to monologue, and Nadine even manages to fight both the brothers at once at one point, holding her own.
Now, Nadine and Rafe eventually find Avery's treasure, and Nadine stocks up on millions' worth of gold, ready to cut loose and end the mission...only for the increasingly-psychotic Rafe to demand they go even further and board Avery's personal ship for further treasure. Though Nadine tries to talk some sense into Rafe, it falls on deaf ears and Rafe slaps her, reveals he's paid off any Shoreline troops Nate hasn't murdered to betray her, and forces her to travel with him to Avery's ship.
Nadine, playing along as having accepted her role as Rafe's partner, soon enough finds an opening to get Rafe and Nate alone on the ship, disarm them, and seal them inside the ship as it's consumed in flame, remarking that she's lost enough this adventure to realize it ain't worth it and has decided to just cut her losses and escape while she can. And, unlike most every major villain in the franchise, Nadine actually gets away from the adventure completely alive and well.
Returning in Lost Legacy, Nadine has fallen in with recurring character Chloe Frazer, working with the adventurer in trying to find the legendary "Tusk of Ganesh" and steal it out from under the psychopath Asav's clutches. Nadine goes undercover in Asav's forces to gather intel on the Tusk, and ends up working with Chloe to solve a bevy of puzzles, outwit and massacre Asav's forces, and locate the Tusk, all while the ladies have witty banter and develop a friendship.
Though nearly murdered by Asav—who steals the Tusk from them—Nadine and Chloe survive, with Nadine even putting aside her hatred for Sam Drake to work with him in fighting Asav. Nadine ends up taking down her former lieutenant and new ally of Asav, Orca, who had assumed command of Shoreline and ousted Nadine. Chastising the man for becoming a mere arms dealer, Nadine doesn't miss a beat when Orca tries to treacherously pull a gun on her, promptly executing the man and regaining the Tusk.
Upon learning Asav has obtained a nuclear bomb he plans to use to kill millions and start a race war, Nadine at first tries to say it's not their problem and they should just take what they came for—the Tusk—and go get rich with it. With Chloe's moral urgings, though, Nadine begrudgingly helps her take down and kill Asav while destroying his weapon, saving millions from death and ending the game cheerfully chatting about their plans to become full-fledged partners and treasure hunters together.
Is Nadine magnificent?
I'd say so. She's probably one of the best cases of Only Sane Man in the franchise...she doesn't like to play games with the heroes, she's fine just taking runner-up prizes without needing to satisfy ego, and her ultimate betrayal of Rafe—brought about cuz he's a dick to her and costs her millions—is beautiful in its simplicity and casual indifference, as she plays him like a fiddle then leaves him a no threat to herself while she cuts her losses and escapes. Nate and Sam often escape her clutches only thanks to dumb luck or incompetence of her own goons, and the only reason she doesn't come out completely on top is Rafe screwing her over.
By the time of Lost Legacy, Nadine's definitely taken in some blows in that she came out of the Avery adventure with Shoreline fractured and taken over by Orca and with pretty much zero monetary gain, but the mere fact that Nadine walked out of the situation is a testament to her cleverness in a franchise determined to leave every major villain with a karmic death of some sort. Nadine not only survives, she goes on to outsmart and beat arguably the most dangerous villain in the series, Asav, with help of Chloe, and will still be getting tons of money and fun in her future alongside her new partner.
The only real issue is not an in-universe one, but an out: Nadine is arguably the biggest Base-Breaking Character in the series, but this really has nothing to do with the character herself, per se, but rather her fighting capabilities in A Thief's End. But while folks can debate till the cows come home on whether the writing is on her side for fighting capability, Nadine's intelligence and cunning are all her own, and she pulls off a totally convincing Karma Houdini act and then a mostly Heel–Face Turn with suaveness.
Is Nadine a bitch?
Even though she's lacking in this category the most of any candidate thus far, Nadine's enough of one. She's a ruthless Private Military Contractor in A Thief's End who is eager to beat down and murder the Drakes for crossing her, and while she's mellowed out a lot in Lost Legacy, she's still pretty callous to Asav's plan to nuke an entire city remarking it's "not our problem" and they should just alert local authorities (who wouldn't be able to do shit lol) while on the way to a paycheck. Even though she does ultimately work with Chloe to stop Asav, it's still only after Chloe appeals to her morality and their friendship, and obviously isn't Nadine's first choice.
And of course, Nadine's got plenty pleasant qualities, showing a level of respect to the Drakes as the game goes on, caring for the lives of her men, and going on to form a real friendship with Chloe and an...mmmmm acquaintanceship with Sam Drake.
Final Verdict?
I'd give her a Yes, hitting an Anti-Villain-turned-Anti-Hero subset that no other baddie in the franchise can claim.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Happy yes to Nadine Ross and seconding that Transformers opinion - the bad guys are horrific and only care about destruction and death with no charm involved, and the good guys all have pretty much spotless moral codes.
The only real potential might be Optimus as of 4, but even then his moral slip is fast before he's back to the Prime we know, so I don't think he counts.
From memory, I figured Sentinel came the closest, but even he’s iffy.
With a lot of the antagonists, Fantastic Racism is involved and that’s a big no-no clearly.

As for Stockwell, I'm gonna ping ~@Lore Deluxe and see if they know anything.