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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#37301: Feb 9th 2021 at 1:38:49 AM

I played through Prototype, and i think i found one character worth talking about

What's the Work?

Prototype is an open world sandbox game developed by Radical Entertainment and released in 2009. Originally planned as a franchise, the game spawned two comic miniseries and a sequel game, before the plans for the future entries were halted due to the selling number of [PROTOTYPE 2] didn't met expectations. The first game follows Alex Mercer (or more clearly a virus, which took the form of Alex Mercer), as he starts the game with no memories and wants to regain them. Slowly he discovers himself in the middle of the battle between the military and the virus, which is commanded Elizabeth Greene (the victim of many experiments by said military).

You can watch all cutscenes of the game free here -

(The Supreme Hunter is created in 1 hour 2 minutes time mark, and while it is unknown when it gained sentience and became active, its either from 1 hour 4 minutes 32 seconds time mark, or when from 1 hour 15 minutes 24 seconds time mark)

My candidate is the creation of Elizabeth Greene, which appeared in the second half of the game - The Supreme Hunter.

Who is The Supreme Hunter?

As i said, The Supreme Hunter is the most powerful version of the Hunter types of the infected, who was created from Elizabeth Greene, when her type of virus was combined with "Alex Mercer's" type of virus. Taking the characterstics anf powers from both, The Supreme Hunter at first was non sentient creature, summoned to kill Alex by Green, before it was defeated and seemengly destroyed.

In reality surviving and regenerating, The Supreme Hunter gained sentience and took the form of Captain Robert Cross, after hunting down and consuming him at some point in the game (i put time marks where it could have happened, because the game isn't super clear about it) in such a way, that nobody suspected a thing and everyone remained unaware that Cross was in reality The Supreme Hunter. Tracking down "Alex Mercer", The Supreme Hunter (depending on what time mark he assumed the identity of Cross) started to give him anonymouse calls, giving him directions on how to thwart Blackwatch operations and eliminate key figures (Elizabeth Greene included) (if he consumed Cross from 1 hour 4 minutes 32 seconds time mark). Afterwards (if he consumed Cross at 1 hour 15 minutes 24 seconds time mark), The Supreme Hunter led "Alex" in hunting down Colonel Taggart, since he was their "ticket" to the aircraft carrier USS Reagan, where General Randall escaped to. After "Alex" consumed Taggart and assumed his form, The Supreme Hunter/Cross pretended to capture him and transported him to USS Reagan, where Randall shot him dead (as he thought). As Randall prepared to shoot Cross as well (to "tie up the loose ends"), "Alex" regenerated, assumed his "main" form and consumed Randall to gain his memories on how to stop the nuclear bomb, which Randall activated to wipe out Manhattan and the virus.

This was the moment where The Supreme Hunter revealed itself, stopping "Alex" from deactivating the nuke and openly stating that "When the weapon detonates and they think the infection is cleansed, they won't be looking for me. And when I consume you... I'll be able to withstand even this.", revealing that its plan all along was to manipulate "Alex" into eliminating anyone who could have survived the explosion by escaping from the island (key Blackwatch figures) and then consuming "Alex" himself to survive the explosion and pretend to be dead for a while. It transformes into its true form and fights "Alex" and the rest of Blackwatch's remaining army, killing a lot of them and presenting quite a challenge to "Alex" (it even marked as That One Boss in the YMMV Prototype page), as the timer of the nukes keeps ticking. In the end, "Alex" managed to overpower and kill The Supreme Hunter and saved Manhattan by carrying the bomb far away to explode without damaging the city.

Is he magnificent?

In the game, where aside from Alex's ex-girlfriend for a short time (and even then, "Alex" immediatly figured out that she betrayed him, as soon as Blackwatch's operatives arrived to his location), nobody managed to fool "Alex" into thinking they were his friends, The Supreme Hunter stood out by not only fooling everyone around into thinking he is Cross, without anyone figuring that out, before he revealed it himself to "Alex", and playing him and everyone else into ending in the place, where he wanted them to be, but also by coming dangerously close to victory, if not in defeating "Alex", which he also had a high chance of doing and surviving the explosion by consuming him, but at least in taking "Alex" with him, should the timer go out.

Is he a bastard?

Was willing to let the whole city blow up, simply to pretend to be dead for a while, also consumed the realively simpathetic Captain Robert Cross, to assume his identity. That said, unlike vast majority of the villains, The Supreme Hunter lacks in sadism and pointless cruelty, only doing what was necessary for his plan to survive, while also not being manipulated and controlled by anyone and anything in the game.

Conclusion?

What do you think?

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Feb 9th 2021 at 12:39:52 PM

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#37303: Feb 9th 2021 at 4:16:33 AM

Not sure on the supreme hunter.

MalleoWeegee Evolution Requires Sacrifice. from Eurasia Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
#37304: Feb 9th 2021 at 4:33:26 AM

[tup] to ES duo and Dhaos. Not sure on Supreme Leader.

"I SHALL UNIFY THE WORLD! FROM ALPHA TO OMEGA... BOW DOWN TO ME!!!"
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#37305: Feb 9th 2021 at 5:15:40 AM

Hmmm... Supreme Hunter's a tricky one. I'll say that he has the smarts and ruthlessness down, but how charismatic is the Hunter? Don't really see much swagger in it, so is it Evil Is Cool?

I'll lean yeah for now, seeing the video. Though why does throwing jet planes at it hurt it more than literal bombs?

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Feb 9th 2021 at 5:32:25 AM

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#37306: Feb 9th 2021 at 5:22:05 AM

If it is hard to watch all cutscenes that i linked in the EP (i even put the time mark, where The Supreme Hunter is active), here is the final boss part, where he revealed himself:

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Feb 9th 2021 at 4:22:22 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#37307: Feb 9th 2021 at 7:33:16 AM

I'll say yes to the Supreme Hunter. I might be biased but I tend to have a softer spot for characters who come from origins where they're almost programmed to follow one set of tracks in their life but still throw in their own flourishes and scheming to make it happen.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#37308: Feb 9th 2021 at 7:35:42 AM

[tup]Inzoliah, Dhaos and Supreme

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MalleoWeegee Evolution Requires Sacrifice. from Eurasia Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#37310: Feb 9th 2021 at 7:46:38 AM

Switching to a full [tup] to The Hunter. TBH I was tempted to just upvote him because it's a MB who, to be blunt, literally looks like shit.

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#37311: Feb 9th 2021 at 7:54:43 AM

[tup] to the Supreme Hunter. Honestly I'd have pegged Alex Mercer himself as an MB more easily but he's prone to berserker rages and gets played a bit. Admittedly, I haven't played the sequel. It sounds like he goes nuts in 2 so I'm guessing he doesn't count.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Feb 9th 2021 at 8:15:13 AM

MalleoWeegee Evolution Requires Sacrifice. from Eurasia Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
#37312: Feb 9th 2021 at 8:33:14 AM

I actually noticed on Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Other Media that Zelus comes from Supermarioglitchy4s Super Mario 64 Bloopers instead of OnyxKing67's Mario Bloopers. It lacks a work page, so if it gets created, then it will get added to that page.

Edited by MalleoWeegee on Feb 9th 2021 at 2:13:03 PM

"I SHALL UNIFY THE WORLD! FROM ALPHA TO OMEGA... BOW DOWN TO ME!!!"
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#37313: Feb 9th 2021 at 8:52:15 AM

Okay, writeup time! As for what 43 said, I do indeed have little doubt that some of the JoJo side stuff has candidates, although in the case of some of it, you'd have to figure out what the hell is going on before you could figure out who qualified.

  • Dead Man's Questions: Yoshikage Kira, now a ghost, becomes an amoral hitman with no memory of his life beyond his name and a willingness to kill whoever he is told to by his employer. Kira first manages to deceive a woman harboring his first target, a child murderer, into letting him into her apartment, as he Must Be Invited to enter a home. Upon being attacked by the woman's dog and driven out, Kira instead waits outside the target's window for hours, interprets his gloating taunts as an invitation, and kills him before escaping seamlessly. Betrayed by his employer and ambushed by monsters called Ghost Cleansers on another mission, Kira severs his own arm to survive, and using his ingenuity puts up a fight and escapes, nonchalantly leaving the scene and turning his eye to killing his employer for her betrayal, proving his creativity and ruthlessness even without his Stand and memories.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Feb 9th 2021 at 8:53:34 AM

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#37314: Feb 9th 2021 at 9:24:58 AM

[up][up] Shit, I added that entry. I don't know how I did that sorry.

Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Feb 9th 2021 at 9:25:19 AM

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#37315: Feb 9th 2021 at 9:46:52 AM

'Yes' to Gortwog, Inzoliah, and Dhoas. Oh, and since I missed them yesterday, happy 'Yes' votes to all of the Highlander series baddies, great work, boys!

Now then, here's one from a film I watched recently, who I absolutely think warrants a discussion given how uberly badass the character is, so let's talk it

What's the work?

Reign of Fire is an underrated 2002 post-apocalyptic action-thriller starting Christian Bale and Matthew McConaughey.

The world has been devastated. Ashes remain where once cities stood, humanity has been reduced to a fraction of the percent it once was, and death is around every doorstep as the survivors struggle to last in a world crawling with creatures that want them dead.

Sound like a zombie movie? It is, in a way, with one, miniscule, slight, differing detail..... substitute the zombies for dragons.

Who is Denton Van Zan? What makes him a candidate?

Played by a man I've already brought up a couple times on this thread, Matthew "thing I love about these high school girls, man" McConaughey, Denton Van Zan is a shaved, tattooed American military commander, leading his trained group of survivors dubbed "the Kentucky Irregulars" in their singular quest of total dragon extermination.

Introduced to the film rolling up to "the Fort", a stronghold near London, England housing Quinn Abercromby (Bale) and his sizable group of survivors, Van Zan shows off his bevy of tanks, a functioning helicopter, and a prize dragon's tooth he carries around with him everywhere so as to earn a potential truce with the Fort, remarking while gesturing to his tanks that if Quinn tries to turn them away, "We can do this the easy way...or the real easy way."

When Quinn expresses shock at Van Zan's willingness to fly in the sky with dragons having decimated humanity, remarking "That's their territory!", Van Zan reminds Quinn "It's my territory. It's your territory. They're just renting it."

Revealing that he routinely kills dragons with a variety of technology and strategies, notably training his men in skydiving and using nets to take down dragons, Van Zan showcases said skills when a dragon begins terrorizing the Fort, having his men get into position and directing their strategies excellently. And though unfortunately, one of his men dies and throws the entire strategy into the shitter, getting two more killed, Van Zan never loses his cool, instead appropriating Quinn as a new tool and having him use himself as bait to lure the dragon right to Van Zan...who fires a harpoon directly into the dragon, downing and killing it.

In one of Van Zan's biggest character moments, he later walks in on the occupants of the Fort celebrating the killing of a dragon, the first time they've seen such a thing. Van Zan's response to their partying?

"Envy the country that has heroes, eh? And I say pity the country that needs 'em. What're y'all celebrating? One dragon down, three good men dead! Why hell, at that rate we just might be gettin' somewhere in about 320 years! We'll bury our dead at dawn. You go on and have you're little...soirée. Personally? You disgust me."

Implicitly proclaiming that he's taking command of the Fort, Van Zan reveals to Quinn a fact about the dragons the Irregulars have discovered through sheer deduction: every dragon they've faced so far is female. There's only one male, "the Bull", and if he was gone? The dragons could no longer reproduce, and would die out in no time given the lack of human food.

Shrugging off Quinn's objections, Van Zan gives a rousing speech to the Fort and announces his intent to travel to London—where he's deduced the Bull is located—so as to find and kill it. Earning 4 willing volunteers from his speech, Van Zan casually informs the crowd "Volunteer section of the campaign is now over. Time for the draft." and has the 6 strongest men of the Fort rounded up and forcibly armed to go on the journey.

When an outraged Quinn sucker punches Van Zan for manipulating people into such a suicide mission, Van Zan responds with a Curb-Stomp Battle to Quinn, nearly beating the man to death and reacting with cheer to Quinn's animalist fighting with "That's what we need!"

Unfortunately, Van Zan and everyone present gets thrown off guard when their convoy to London is forced to stop by piles of rubble.....and then an ambush by the surprisingly intelligent, immensely large Bull. Though Van Zan faces down the Bull with a shotgun and skillfully dodges the beast's flames, his convoy is not so lucky, and all are wiped out in a single burst of the Bull's flames.

Despite the temporary shock and regret at underestimating the Bull, Van Zan returns to the Fort and rescues Quinn and other survivors trapped underground after an attack by the Bull. Finally putting aside their differences, Quinn and Van Zan team up with Van Zan's chopper pilot Alex to travel to London—just the three of them—and take down the Bull for the sake of humanity.

Using Awesomeness by Analysis to spy on the Bull and gauge his flight patterns while simultaneously allowing Quinn to take the lead in the London streets he knows shortcuts through, Van Zan devises a strategy to use Alex as human bait while himself and Quinn ambush the Bull with crossbows that fire explosive arrows.

Climbing to the top of a tower and peeling off his shirt, Van Zan gives the go-ahead for the strategy... unfortunately, Quinn dropped his arrow in the chaos, and doesn't have time to fire it on cue. Left alone, Van Zan nonetheless fires his arrow and wounds the Bull, but the beast is left alive and continues to barrel towards Van Zan.

Does Van Zan cower? Try to run? Simply stand in shock? No, he pulls out his giant axe, leaps off the building, and tries to strike the Bull with the weapon all while roaring in its face defiantly, and though Van Zan is unfortunately devoured by the Bull, his strategy and advice to Quinn pays off, as Quinn finds his arrow and fires a killing blow to the Bull, resulting in no more dragon eggs capable of being fertilized and hatched and—at least for the immediate future—securing mankind's safety from dragons.

Is Van Zan magnificent?

Van Zan is...awesome. Just pure 80s Action Hero transplanted into a post-apocalyptic story about him fighting freaking dragons, and it works extraordinarily well to make him a commanding, impressive presence. Van Zan is a total badass who has strategies to kill dragons, inspires the people of the Fort and even cynical Quinn himself to fight for humankind's future and not solely survival, and genuinely cares for his men. Even when his initial strategy to kill a dragon fails due solely to events out of his control, Van Zan just immediately turns Quinn into a working cog in his plan and slays the dragon.

Now, where some hesitation comes in is that Van Zan gets screwed badly by the Bull when he tries to take it on the first time, but in his total defense? The Bull is smarter, larger, and more powerful than any dragon he has ever faced before, and it summarily decimates his forces when Van Zan comes unprepared. And considering he sits in shock for a mere few moments at his failure before springing right back into action, I'd say Van Zan does nicely to recover.

Lastly, yeah, he dies without successfully killing the Bull, but I'm sorry, this madman sketched out a plan in moments' time while watching the Bull's flight patterns, devises a scheme to kill it with explosive arrows that fails in heavy part because Quinn lost his arrow like a dumbass, and even when he knows he's done for and has no more ammo, Van Zan fuckin grabs an axe and tries to cleave the dragon's face. It's utterly, ridiculously, insanely awesome, and even if he dies in the process, he nonetheless was a working part of how Quinn ends up beating the Bull, and Van Zan never once had much illusion that he was coming out of the fight alive, totally willing to die if it meant securing humanity's future.

Is Van Zan a bastard?

I'd say so, yes. Now, he puts his men in harm's way a lot, even turning several of them into what can be best described as suicide bombers by having them jump out of a helicopter to distract dragons as human bait while others try to shoot nets on them, but he's also such A Father to His Men, and they do it willingly, that it alone wouldn't put him over.

What does, I think, push him over is the fact that he threatens to take the Fort by force if Quinn doesn't let the Irregulars shelter there awhile, he pretty explicitly forces several people from the Fort to go confront the Bull with him, and when Quinn punches him for putting their lives in danger, Van Zan reacts by nearly beating Quinn to death. Alex, who knows Van Zan the best of anyone, explicitly says "He would have killed you. He doesn't feel things. It's the only way he can do what he does."

I think that's enough for me to say Van Zan hits here.

Final Verdict?

Van Zan doesn't always make the right choice, and he does end up dead by the end, but he goes out like a totally badass mofo and always recovers from his flukes with responsibility and coolness. He's a Yes from me.

Edited by Ravok on Feb 9th 2021 at 9:47:15 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#37316: Feb 9th 2021 at 9:49:23 AM

[tup]Van Zan

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MalleoWeegee Evolution Requires Sacrifice. from Eurasia Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#37318: Feb 9th 2021 at 9:54:24 AM

Yes to the Supreme Hunter and Van Zan.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#37319: Feb 9th 2021 at 9:56:45 AM

[tup]Dhaos.

Will read supreme hunter and Van Zan later.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#37320: Feb 9th 2021 at 9:57:11 AM

yes to Van Zan and the Hunter (I need to watch that movie)

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#37323: Feb 9th 2021 at 10:26:46 AM

yes to Van Zan....hell, I hadn't heard Reign of Fire in a looong time.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#37324: Feb 9th 2021 at 10:28:16 AM

Abstain on the Supreme Hunter. [tup]Van Zan.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#37325: Feb 9th 2021 at 10:29:13 AM

Yes to Van Zan.


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