During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Here is my next Elder Scrolls effort post. This one is from the second game, Daggerfall, in which the player is sent to the kingdom of High Rock to investigate the death of King Lysandus and exorcise his restless spirit. Of course, everything goes awry when it's discovered one of the powers of the aera has the Totem of Tiber Septim in their grasp and intend to use it to awaken and control Numidium, a colossal magical mech powered by the heart of the dead creator god. Only one of the powers in the region did I find worthy of an effort post as they are either too monstrous like Mannimarco, too good like the Underking, or just too petty and seeking to expand their own power base. So let's talk about my candidate.
Who is Gortwog gro-Nagorm?
Warlord of the Orsimer, or orcs, and lord of the fledgling nation of Orsinium, Gortwog was a visionary who sought to build a great nation for his people and earn the respect of the other races who saw his kind as merely monsters beneath contempt. After building up a sizable settlement in area, Gortwog began seeking out political allies in the Illiac Bay region to help him legitimize his claim. Surprising the king with his diplomatic skills, Gortwog earned the respect and aid of Lysandus, who planned on helping Orsinium reach legitimacy in the eyes of the Empire. It was during this time that Gortwog got wind of an assassination attempt on King Lysandus as he was marching to war against the rival kingdom of Sentinel. Learning that Lysandus' son Gothryd was working with Lord Woodborne of Wayrest to carry out the assassination, Gortwog sent out a party to waylay the Wayrest delegation. The attack failed and the assassination was eventually carried out.
Starting the events of the game proper, the Emperor learns that Woodborne acquired the totem and sends a letter to Lysandus' widow to request her aid in getting it back, but the letter actually arrives to Gothryd and his new wife. They hide the letter away, only to have it stolen by the Thieves' Guild and sold to Gortwog. Realizing the importance of the letter, Gortwog begins making plans to acquire the totem himself and realizes the best way to do that is to reignite conflict in the region. Knowing that no other power would recognize Orsinium's existence, Gortwog makes copies of the letter and sends it to every other political power in the region to begin a race for the totem. Another scheme Gortwog concocts in the meantime is to get his hands on a manuscript of the biography of Queen Barenziah of Wayrest that goes into explicit details of her past and sexual exploits. Although the player is given the option to give the manuscript back to Barenziah or Gortwog, later games make it clear that Gortwog successfully had the book published to humiliate Barenziah. Gortwog, out of respect, also played a key role in putting Lysandus' spirit to rest. He alerted the dead king's mistress, the witch Medora, to the location of a magical dust that helped to pet him to rest in exchange for Medora's aid in helping Gortwog acquire the Mantella, the power source to Numidium.
What follows is one of the most bizarre events to ever happen in the Elder Scrolls franchise, as Bethesda wasn't sure which ending to Daggerfall they wanted to canonize. The player is given the option to deliver the totem to one of seven powers in the region and following games make it canon that all seven somehow happened at the same time. In an event that would be called the Warp in the West, the four major kingdoms would all activate Numidium at the same time and the cataclysmic event left Daggerfall, Sentinel, Wayrest, and Orsinium as the only kingdoms left in the Illiac Bay region. Regardless, these events all worked out for Gortwog and Orsinium's increased power and land earned it official recognition from the Empire as a province of High Rock. Gortwog's surprising diplomatic skills won out again as he earned his people equal status and respect amongst all the nations of the Empire and so orcs are found in all walks of life in the later games. On a more meta level, Gortwog is also the reason why orcs are made plyable in all future releases. To further secure his people's future, Gortwog also abolished the widespread worship of the Daedric Prince Malacath and moved his people over to the worship of Trinimac, who was Malacath before he became a daedra.
Is he magnificent?
Gortwog surprises every political power in the game for being able to match them in their schemes. Even outside of his instances of blackmail, Gortwog's decision to copy the letter and incite conflict really worked out in his people's favor and weakened the other kingdoms enough to secure the future of his own. Besides being beloved by his own people, Gortwog was also a skilled diplomat that managed to earn a better life for his people when peace came around and helped them to integrate rather flawlessly into the Empire. Even when meeting the player in person, he is respectful and wise in his dealings. Out of all the factions, he also gets the best and happiest ending in the long term.
Is he a bastard?
While one of the more heroic of the factions in Daggerfall, second only to the Underking who just wants reclaim his soul from Numidium and pass on, Gortwog was still nevertheless willing to use blackmail and violence to secure the future of the orcs. He still has enough moments of immorality to count as a bastard.
Any mitigating factors?
There really aren't any I can think of. Pretty impressive for someone whose race started out as typical Tolkien orc in Arena.
Final Verdict?
I think an easy
here.
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And just a quick reply, but damn Scraggle you voted yes literally ten seconds after I originally posted the write up. I know you are well versed in the Elder Scrolls lore and probably had your vote pre-decided, but you could at least buy a guy dinner first.
To clarify, I posted it at the top of the last page and then reposted it on this one. Scraggle literally had 10 seconds to see the effort post, type everything we see in the top post on this page, and press send. It's rather humorous and impressive. (For real, look at the time stamps.)
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Feb 8th 2021 at 6:39:19 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Gortwog. I guess publishing a book with past sexual exploits could be seen as misogynistic, but I think that's just him taking advantage of societal attitudes, rather than holding them as his own. Is that right?
So with precedent over on the CM thread now for a Show Within a Show or an In-Game Novel being conducive to qualification, I think I got another from Elder Scrolls.
From another in-universe fiction (told, like "The Horror of Castle Xyr", in the form of a play script) we have Inzoliah from "A Hypothetical Treachery
."
Who is Inzoliah? What has she done?
A "most treacherous battlemage" and a Dunmer part of a four-person adventuring party—consisting of herself, fellow battlemage Malvasian, a healer named Dolcettus and a barbarian named Schiavas, Inzoliah opens the play breaking out of a dungeon with a valuable plate of armor called the Ebony Mail.
Inzoliah first shows off her ability to scheme by tricking Dolcettus and Schiavas into thinking her magicka has been completely drained. Dolcettus and Schiavas send off Inzoliah to investigate some eerie sounds in the forest, expecting her to never come back; instead Inzoliah, having planned this, uses up the last of the magicka she had saved to summon a ghost to kill Dolcettus and Schiavas, simultaneously forcing Malvasian to expend the rest of his own magicka to destroy the ghost.
Inzoliah and Malvasian are left at a stalemate with only a single healing potion between them and decide to take the Ebony Mail back for their reward together, and starts politely discussing the idea of a hypothetical treachery between them. Inzoliah poses the question of which would be a more suitable means of betrayal; slowly leeching away the other battlemage's life and magicka, as Malvasian is keen to do, or using one quick lightning bolt to kill the other battlemage instantly, as Inzoliah would prefer. Furthermore, she poses the scenario of what they would do if they found themselves mutually incapacitated. While Malvasian suggests he'd simply take the healing potion and run, Inzoliah suggests she sees Malvasian as a Worthy Opponent and that while she'd hypothetically abscond with the reward, she'd leave him the healing potion.
Eventually, Inzoliah and Malvasian come to blows. Inzoliah is the loser, and Malvasian leaves her the healing potion.
...fast forward to a few hours later. Malvasian is being harangued by bandits who wants the Ebony Mail and he can't fight them off. His magicka hasn't regenerated; in fact, he's much, much weaker than he was before. Inzoliah swoops in having used the healing potion, scares off the bandits, and reveals she'd secretly been using the leech spell on him the whole while, gradually enough that Malvasian doesn't feel the consequences until hours later. Before Inzoliah makes off with the Ebony Mail, Malvasian weakly asks if she'd spare him as a Worthy Opponent. Inzoliah's response: "From my experience, hypothetically, no. She doesn't sound like a fool."
What's her competition like?
Not really much to talk about here. Within the framework of the story's plot, Inzoliah is queen here. Even among the greater Elder Scrolls universe, this is a pretty impressive, distinguishing piece of "hypothetical treachery." Invoking the Worthy Opponent trope to make sure your opponent spares you after having already gauged all his weaknesses through banter is already pretty magnificent; not acting like Malvasian is actually a Worthy Opponent and refusing to offer him the same courtesy completes her.
Is she too much of a bastard?
Manipulates and kills all the members of her adventuring party in order to abscond with their treasure, but at the same time she's Affably Evil at absolute worst and the extended dialogue of her "hypothetical treachery" shows how much charm she has. No trouble here either.
Conclusion?
Weird case given the Show Within a Show format of this, but I'd encourage any skeptics to give the story a quick read themselves. It's a self-contained piece of in-universe fiction, something which ES is replete with.
Edited by Scraggle on Feb 8th 2021 at 8:16:13 AM
Yes to Inzoliah.
To answer the above, Orc society in Elder Scrolls lore is rather patriarchal but Gortwog himself never shows any misogynic principles in game. Publishing the embarrassing biography of Barenziah is entirely a political move.
To Bethesda's credit, they go all out with world building in their in game books as Scraggle's above effort post shows. In fact, the autobiography that Barenziah tries to stop isn't just a simply quest item, but a fully fleshed out short story you can read in game. Here's a link
if you want to read it and see why she didn't want it published.
It's also the main reason I'm choosing not to effort post Tiber Septim, the first emperor turned god. Seducing a vulnerable young woman and forcefully giving her an abortion when she becomes pregnant makes him lose all magnificence in my eyes.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Feb 8th 2021 at 7:24:00 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Gort and Inz.
All right, folks. Reason I've been quiet is because... well, primarily I was doing personal projects and writing. Secondarily, I was gathering information to tackle yet another large franchise. Hope you don't mind; ready or not, I'm starting.
What's the work?
Tales Series is the flagship fantasy JPRG video game series of Bandai Namco that, while it did not reach the massive intentional popularity of 90s contemporaries like Final Fantasy, nonetheless became known for its action-oriented gameplay, story-driven writing, and marvelous setpieces of "Mystic Artes" (special moves by each playable character and bosses). The franchise is divided into two categories: the Mothership titles (mainline games) and the Escort Tiles (spinoffs).
I'm starting with none other than the very first Mothership Title, Tales of Phantasia. Best friends Cress Albane and Chester Burklight return from a hunting trip to find that their entire village has been destroyed, and their families slaughtered. It turns out that the culprit needed Cress's heirloom pendant to unlock the seal on Dhaos, the legendary Demon King. Unfortunately, Cress and company arrive in time to see Dhaos unsealed. A guide named Trinicus flings Cress and Mint into the past where the human country of Midgards is at war with the evil forces of Dhaos. Recruiting a half-elf witch named Arche and a human summoner called Claus, the group sets off to see Dhaos's madness put to an end.
(Note, I was also be taking into account the novel Tales of Phantasia: Katararezaru Rekishi and the sequel game Tales of Phantasia: Narikiri Dungeon. They massively help flesh out our candidate.)
Who is the candidate? The character’s actions?
Dhaos, the Demon King of Aselia, started the Valhalla War against the kingdom of Midgards, whose propaganda campaigns caused the world's population to fear him as a demonic figure.
Buuuut let's rewind and see why he became such a feared and dangerous man.
Hailing from the planet Derris-Karlan, Dhaos was the prince and leader of one of its largest countries. Accompanied by his consort karion and his council of sorcerers, dhaos led his people with a vision of peace and prosperity, always valuing diplomacy and dialogue as a means of resolving conflict. His country served as a deterrent against any of the others more inclined towards warfare..
So, naturally, two places—Palace Gdora and Place Sedamyu—started a major conflict against each other. Dhaos observed that the war was spreading as bloodshed and casualties damaged both sides, but as the forces of Palace Gudora became weaker and weaker, he knew that its loss was imminent. He was relieved that his own country would not had to intervene in this war, and that it would be resolved soon enough without requiring more violence. He started to organize relief efforts to aid those who were caught in the crossfire of the war. However, the scientists of Palace Gudora had been developing a powerful superweapon which would changed the tides of war in their favor, the magitechnology-infused Mana Cannon. The weapon was fired upon Palace Sedamyu, and its capital region was incinerated.
Not only did this horrify Dhaos, turns out the cannon used up the magical energy of the planet's World Tree. Since all life on the planet requires mana to survive, everything within the world was slowly but surely withering away. One of his own scientists proposed they send Dhaos to go get another one from the planet of Aselia. His council, which included his wife, organized a transport ritual, but it required their own mana to succeed, so Dhaos gets to watch his most faithful people die before he's spirited away.
After spending several decades traveling, Dhaos arrived on Aselia disoriented and ill from mana deprivation. Thankfully, Winona Pickford, found and nursed him back to health. As he recovers, he is plagued with images of his dying wife and his other followers, and he comes to realize that he has no choice but to obtain the mana seed, so that their sacrifice would not be in vain. He proceeded to make regular visits to the World Tree of Aselia, Yggdrasill. In order to germinate a mana seed, the tree required a large amount of energy to be stored, and Dhaos realized that this process was inhibited by an industrial revolution that was taking place throughout the world, especially within the city of Midgards, with the development of magitechnology. As the technology drains mana faster than Yggdrasill can produce it, Dhaos figured out the manatechnology revolution is both a threat his plan and their own planet.
No biggie, Dhaos figures. He waltzes to the Kingdom of Migards and lays on the good ole diplomacy shtick thick. It almost worked too if it weren't for some meddling jackass. One of the king's closest advisers, Reisen, accuses Dhaos's mission defenses as a precursor to invasion based on his alien mana. Reisen attacked Dhaos and Winona, branded him a "Demon King", and persuades the king to believe that Dhaos was a subversive figure who would seek to take over the kingdom. Dhaos departs from the kingdom, aware that peaceful methods are not always capable of achieving what is necessary. He blamed himself for the disaster at Derris-Kharlan, and so he decided to force Midgards to submit to his demands no matter what the cost might be because his entire planet was at stake.
You can probably guess what happens next.
Well, more specifically, Dhaos made a pact with the demons of Daemonium. He organized an intimidating horde of monsters, striking fear into the hearts of the people throughout Aselia. At the same time, Dhaos organized preemptive strikes against people who were associated with magitechnology, including the village of Hamel where the parents of Rhea Scarlet were researching the subject on behalf of Midgards. His forces slaughtered countless innocent lives, but Dhaos deemed these losses to be necessary as rage consumed his heart and madness his mind.
Thus, the Valhalla War. During the battle, Reisen unveils Aselia's own Mana Cannon. History Repeats. And, uh, let's say the already... distressed Dhaos doesn't take the death of Aselia's Yggdrasil (World Tree) too kindly. Dhaos was left little to fight for, grasping onto the vain hope that something might arise in the future which would allow him to return to Derris-Kharlan successfully. In order to reach that possibility, Dhaos realized he must survive and destroy mankind for what it has done.
A team of heroes looking to end the war storms Dhaos's castles, forcing him to flee into the future at the Catacombs of Euclid, but he's sealed away into two pendants containing the key to his seal in possession of his enemies. Dhaos, incarcerated within a coffin, remained fully alive but powerless.
Okay, now we're at the main game, the present timeline. Dhaos manipulated a powerhungry asshole named Mars into looking for the keys to seal so he could offer the Demon King's power. After Cress and crew deal with lots of fights and bloodshed, Mars returns to the Catacombs with the two pendants, using their power to free Dhaos from his confinement. He promptly says "Thanks, sucker" and riddles Mars full of holes with his DHAOS LASER.
Now, as you can expect of a plot that features time travel, separate timelines happen depending on what Cress and Mint do in the past. Let's advance to the Future Timeline where all the other significant stuff happens.
By returning to the past, Cress and Mint essentially take the place of their ancestors in defeating Dhaos the first time. This alters the timeline so that Dhaos's life on Aselia unfolds differently, causing the Dhaos of this alternative reality to be different from the one sealed by Edward D. Morrison and his group. Instead of escaping into the present as in the main plot, he goes farther into the future. In the years since, magitechnology has flourished, and Dhaos attempts to destroy all of the magitechnology once more. Hiding his base behind a space-time barrier, none can approach him as he attacks the world. Cress and his party try to stop him, but Dhaos sees no need to engage in combat.
And, indeed, they can't do anything until Cress unsealed the Eternal Sword, a blade capable of preventing Dhaos's use of his powers of altering space-time as well as revealing his home base's location. Now the Final Battle begins, including bogging Dhaos with the "INDIG-NAY-TION". Deeming his motives just, however, the heroes asked the Spirit Martel to send a mana seed to his homeland of Derris-Kharlan, alongside his deceased body.
Now, sequel. Mel and Dio, the reincarnations of two citizens of Palace Gudora, encounter Dhaos within the "cloud painting" at Bifrost after Mel and Dio rediscover their past memories. He engages them in combat to test their abilities, knowing that he survives in this form for this purpose. Once bested, he expresses his regret for his past deeds. Dhaos says that the darkness in the hearts of humans is perpetual, but that it must not be destroyed; rather, it must be controlled by admitting it as a part of the whole person. His parting gift to the children is the Star Arcana, and he orders them to confront the darkness.
Magnificent (Charming, Charismatic, Intelligence, etc.)? Why or why not?
Before his madness, Dhaos was a master diplomat and king, using mere words to sow peace and resolve conflict, and he had a big, prosperous kingdom to show for it. Things only went to hell by the actions of third parties. Even after his transport, Dhaos posed as an emissary of peace in order to establish open-minded dialogue. He attempts to approach and warn the king of Migards and his court about the dangers of magitechnology, which he had already experienced firsthand, in an attempt to appeal to their concern for the environment. And that would have worked too if some asshat wanting to repeat the sins of past said "to hell with you" and framed as a demonlike scapegoat. And, Hell, when decided that violence was an answer, he proves to be a master at military campaigns too with strategic strikes meant to stop magitechnology from flourishing.
While most of his magnificence comes from the supplementary material, Dhaos does indeed transfigure that diplomacy into old-fashioned manipulation in the main game. Noticing the power-hungry knight of Euclid, Mars Uldole, wanting to free him, Dhaos uses telepathy to trick the bastard into unsealing him from the Catacombs and invokes Evil Is Not a Toy like it's nobody's business.
Now, Dhaos isn't exactly mentally sound. After all, constantly witnessing his loved ones die and being stuck in a coffin for a long time drove him... rather mad. However, Dhaos regains his clarity in the future timeline where he's more than content to sit back behind his time-space barrier and wait until he wins. He's also given an especially poignant moment in Narikiri Dungeon where he gives the protagonists sage advice based on his own experiences and disappears peacefully.
Bastard? Not too much of one?
You don't get the title "Demon King" for no reason. Okay, it started as just mere propaganda, but Dhaos decided to go the whole way, making a pact with demons and using their forces to ravage his enemies because Humans Are Bastards and tried to destroy the world of Aselia. Dhaos comes across as all-around Jerkass who resorts to threats to get what he wants, giving him the feel of a bad person trying to do good. He also acknowledges in the sequel that, when he first arrived, the malicious intent building in his intent was but his own.
However, Dhaos began the time-honored tradition of being a Well-Intentioned Extremist. He's especially impressive in that he debuted in the 90s during the dawn of video game storytelling. Not many heroes or villains were getting the kind of characterization he got, and time gave Namco the opportunity to iron out the kinks. He has a hell of Freudian Excuse showing just how he jumped off the deep end, much of which wasn't even his own fault. He makes pretty salient points about the nature of evil that some characters like Reisen wind up proving him right about. Nevertheless, like I said in the previous section, he sheds most of his unpleasant tendencies by the end of the sequel.
Dhaos wanted to destroy a world to save his own, losing and reclaiming his way once it's all said and done.
(The Phantasia OVA also removes more of his negative traits and gives more Pet the Dog moments, but I'm not sure of its canonicity to the novel and sequel game.)
Competition?
None.
Conclusion?
The first of more to come.
Edited by erazor0707 on Feb 8th 2021 at 10:52:39 AM
Yes to Dhaos. I myself will do Kratos from Symphonia as from what I remember, he's an easy keep. Yes to more ES characters too.
I've got a candidate in mind that I feel might come off as a tad misogynistic myself and that's the reason I've hesitated from doing an effortpost for a while. If anyone wants to discuss him, drop me a PM. It's mainly because of one line he says.
Edited by Klavice on Feb 8th 2021 at 8:42:36 AM
Just noticed this on Snow White: A Tale of Terror:
- Magnificent Bastard: Claudia, as her attempts to kill Lili are effective enough to at least cause the deaths of a couple of the miners.

Yes to Gortwog.
I was the one who put up Canaletto as a CM and 43 hit the nail on the head. Canaletto's manipulations are impressive but there's way too much emphasis on his arrogance and God complex.
Edited by Scraggle on Feb 8th 2021 at 7:28:17 AM