During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I'm saying the gambits don't seem like ASOIAF level, with layers upon layers, or some Foundation gambits where there's layers of I Know You Know I Know. These seem comparatively more straightforward.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midHave to ask Lighy there bud, I've just seen a handful with Villain of the Week-types.
Edited by 43110 on Feb 7th 2021 at 1:07:23 PM
New EP, since it’s Super Bowl Sunday:
What is the work?
‘’Black Sunday’’ is a 1977 action/thriller film directed by John Frankenheimer. It tells the story of Major David Kabakov (Robert Shaw), a Mossad agent who is trying to foil a major terrorist attack by the Palestinian group Black September at the Super Bowl.
Who is the candidate and what does she do?
Dahlia Iyad (Marthe Keller) is a member of Black September and one of the two lead antagonists in the film, alongside blimp pilot Michael Lander (Bruce Dern). Dahlia has a Dark and Troubled Past: born in Palestine, her father and brother were killed in the late 1940s in the first few years of Israel’s existence and she, her mother, and sister were put into a refugee camp where the latter two died, leaving Dahlia with a seething hatred of Israel. Dahlia however survived and made it through to college, eventually being recruited by Black September.
In the present, Dahlia is introduced meeting with fellow Black September terrorist Nageeb, who shows her footage of Lander during his time as a POW in Vietnam. Nageeb is unsure that Lander will be able to put off the plan, given that he’s highly emotionally unstable, but Dahlia assures him that she can control him; Lander is almost entirely emotionally reliant on her. Dahlia makes a recording of a statement, telling the US that it’s time they paid for supporting Israel over Palestine. However the recording is stolen in a Mossad raid led by Kabakov, who kills Nageeb; Kabakov himself surprises Dahlia when she’s in the shower, but refrains from shooting her, believing her to be Nageeb’s mistress or a prostitute. Needless to say, Kabakov finds that this is a mistake.
Dahlia then goes to meet Lander; Lander is on a tear, believing she has betrayed him. However, Dahlia gives him a statuette full of the explosive for the plan and assures him that she believes in him, then persuades him to attend a veteran’s meeting to keep his job. Several days later, Dahlia, under the alias of “Kaza”, and Lander smuggle crates of explosives and flechettes into Long Beach harbor, narrowly avoiding the Coast Guard and leaving a bomb to kill the captain, wounding Kabakov. Dahlia then sneaks into the hospital to kill Kabakov, but is accosted by Kabakov’s friend Mochevsky, so Dahlia kills him with a syringe of potassium chloride. Lander and Dahlia then go to the Mojave Desert to test their bomb on some unfortunate schmuck who is shredded to pieces by the Flechette Storm; Lander is ecstatic about the successful test, unnerving Dahlia. Bringing the shipment, in a false blimp gondola bottom, into Miami, Dahlia is met by another Black September man named Fasil, who tries to tell her to call off the plan, but she tells him it’s too far along; Fasil is killed by Kabakov in a gun battle some days later.
The day before the Super Bowl, Dahlia learns from Lander that he’s been replaced as the pilot of the Goodyear blimp, so Dahlia disguises herself as room service, brings up food to the other pilot, named Farley, and kills him. On the day of the Super Bowl, Lander tells the blimp crew that Farley’s sick and that he’s going up. Dahlia waits until Lander forces an emergency landing and they install the flechette bomb to the blimp. At this point, Kabakov, the cops and FBI, realize that something is wrong and converge on the airfield. Dahlia kills multiple cops with a machine gun and Lander is able to get the blimp in the air, and a mid-air shootout ensues between Kabakov, the cops, and the terrorists, that ends with Kabakov killing Dahlia and Lander; however the blimp cannot be stopped, forcing Kabakov to tow the blimp out over the sea, narrowly avoiding great loss of life.
Is she intelligent? Charismatic? Think on her feet?
Highly intelligent as it’s her plan and she recruited Lander to see it through. Charismatic? She’s tasked with executing the plan alongside Lander and keeps him on the level. Think on her feet? There’s the deaths of Mochevsky and Farley; Mochevsky wasn’t the intended target but she improvised by using her poison on him. Farley’s murder is pure taking information and running with it by making a simple but effective plan. Determined yet levelheaded and skillful, she’d likely be a good role model... if she wasn’t a terrorist.
Is she a bastard? Too much?
Let’s not beat around the bush here; Dahlia murders almost a dozen people (11 by my count), including cops, and attempts to kill thousands more by aiding Lander. Too much? I think her tragic past is enough to partially mitigate her.
Competition?
Not much; Kabakov is playing catch-up (though he is probably enough of a bastard to count) if anyone wishes to EP him, and admits to underestimating her. Lander is way too unstable and the main reason they’re able to get the plan off the ground at all is because Dahlia is there to stabilize him.
Verdict?
Up to you guys.
Edited by k410ren on Feb 7th 2021 at 1:22:34 PM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
to the Highlander trio and Dahlia.
Yea to Dahlia. Horton I'm gonna need a refresher for us on because he's a recurring arc villain and because there's some nasty Fantastic Racism at play in his hatred of Immortals (guy was the KURGAN'S Watcher and it drove him almost insane)
My next Highlander MB, though...I give you Kassim from the episode The Promise.
Who is Kassim?
Muhammad ibn Kassim was born in Tinmallal, North Africa and died in a political dispute. Awakening as an immortal he was found by the famed, noble Muslim warrior Hamza el Kahir and became his student. Kassim became a warrior for his homeland, fighting in North Africa and the Middle East. During the Crusades, Kassim found himself fighting alongside a man named al Deneb, a noble and enlightened ruler who realized Kassim's immortality and made him swear a promise: to one day return al Deneb to grandeur. Kassim so swore and served the House of al Deneb loyally ever since...in 1755, he met Duncan Macleod in Africa, when a young man had paid attention to the princess of al Deneb...which in the culture of the time was intensely disrespectful and Kassim was going to execute him for it. Duncan intervened and swore an oath: he would offer Kassim a promise, to be called in for the future.
Modern Paris, Duncan sees Kassim working as a bodyguard to the dictator of a Middle Eastern nation at a diplomatic summit, Hamad...in truth Kassim is serving a claimant to the throne, Nasir al Deneb and he's come to call in his favor: he plans to set Hamad up and have Duncan kill him. Hamad is a mass murdering dictator, but Duncan's honor is really not jiving with this whole "murder for hire" stuf. He agrees to do it and Kassim sets up the assassination...things go flawlessly but Duncan gets cold feet and can't take the shot. Kassim tries to kill Hamad himself and is gunned down, later coming to see Duncan, pissed the hell off and saying Nasir is in danger...and more, he's the last of the House of al Deneb...Duncan forces Hamad to swear to him not to touch Nasir, but Hamad goes behind his back to murder Nasir and stage it as a suicide, whereupon Kassim kidnaps Duncan's distant clanswoman Rachel to force Duncan into a duel....Duncan wins but refuses to take Kassim's head. Kassim vows it changes nothing and departs, bemoaning Duncan cannot even win with honor. Duncan kills Hamad at the end...but the House of al Deneb is over.
...Or is it? In the Watcher Chronicles supplements, it's revealed Nasir's lover is pregnant and Kassim acts to place them under his protection, where he will protect them and the child...until the day comes when he can see that child and al Deneb restored to power.
Any mitigating issues?
Kassim hits most points well. He's an excellent planner, having lured Hamad into a sense of security while leading a plot against him. He's dignified, honorable and the only reason his plot fails is Duncan getting cold feet at the wrong moment. Notably Kassim's honor is emphasized a few times. When he's furious at Duncan for jeopardizing Nasir's life, he draws a sword on him, but when Duncan refuses to fight back, Kassim can't bring himself to truly attack Duncan. Kidnapping Rachel to lure Duncan out? he fully admits he wanted to kill her so Duncan could know the same pain as Kassim, but he can't do things that way.
Now, Kassim has clearly mellowed the hell out from years ago...bastard-wise, Kassim easily hits it. He's willing to kill a young man for just speaking to his princess, which Duncan is shocked by but this is a pretty clear culture clash as to Kassim he's just upholding his lady's honor. In present, he's mellowed out enormously, but he is willing to risk Rachel's life to get Duncan to fight him. That said, Kassim is right about all this. Hamad is a mass-murdering dictator and butcher, Nasir is a good man and would be a MUCH better ruler. And Duncan gets him killed, with the realization Kassim was right. But even then, Kassim never really breaks down. His collapse is as dignified as you can get it and he coldly tells Duncan that sparing him changes nothing before he departs...before supplements reveal he's protecting Nasir's beloved and their child, with a new purpose.
Conclusion?
Easy yes to Kassim
My next from the episode Wrath of Kali: Kamir.
Who is Kamir?
Kamir was a Brahman priest, born in 350, Tamralipti India, suffering his first death at the hands of temple thieves in 390. Awakening as an Immortal, Kamir was found by an Immortal named Sanjiv Gupta and became his pupil....Kamir's goddess was Kali, mother of destruction and he was secretly involved with the Thuggee cults. Kamir remained largely in India through the centuries, up through the British occupation...Duncan was working with the British on arrival, though Duncan was revolted by the racism and imperialism. He pulled a woman named Vashti away from committing suttee upon her husband's funeral pyre...
In truth? Kamir was working for his goddess and moving to undermine the British, masterminded Thuggee attacks and undermining the British to organize a revolt. The leading Colonel was lured into a trap by Kamir, who had him calmly strangled by the Thuggees....Vashti and Duncan became lovers, but eventually she embraced the traditional path and killed herself at Kamir's assistance, to Duncan's fury...Kamir would remain in India for centuries more, fighting for his land and culture...when a statue of Kali was taken, Kamir left to track it down, finding an antiques dealer who had sold it. Kamir murdered him...one of Duncan's friends, a woman named Shandra had the statue and wanted it in a museum, where Kamir wanted it returned....now, Kamir ended up bonding with Duncan's protege Richie Ryan, showing him moves, giving him good pep talks...but also acting behind Duncan's back with intent to get the statue back. Duncan eventually arranged to send the statue back...but Kamir tried to kill Shandra for her 'desecrating' Kali...Duncan intercepted him and the two dueled, with Kamir utilizing a scarf as a tactic in fighting, but Duncan was able to outfight the older Immortal and beheaded him.
Mitigating issues?
Kamir has some of the most dignity and presence to him of any immortal in the series. The thing is, he's not evil at all, but he follows a rather dark cult religion with a fanaticism that' s wholly incompatible with modern society. He's willing to kill innocent people for crossing his goddess, but he's absolutely right about his anger over British colonization and the wholesale plunder of his nation and culture, little bones are made about that. He does supervise a woman's attempted suicide and later counsels her to a successful one, but it's made clear there's no malice here, it's just a different culture and way for them.
Even besides that, none of Kamir's affability is remotely fake. He's incredibly pleasant, genuinely likes Duncan and bonds with Richie quickly. Essentially, if you're not in his sites, he's a great guy to know. If you are, watch out.
Conclusion?
An easy keeper.
Kamir
Anyone read A Practical Guide to Evil? It's an ongoing web serial novel that has a ton of potential candidates, yet is so goddamn long I'm too scared to go back myself and propose any. Even then, the only candidate whose arc has sufficiently wrapped is that of the Tyrant of Helike.
Just putting this out there, if anyone has a shit ton of free time and wants to have a look for themselves.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Feb 7th 2021 at 11:21:45 AM

I guess I can say yes to Bellian then. Especially cause given the series there doesn't seem to be high degrees of Gambits.
Edited by jjjj2 on Feb 7th 2021 at 12:51:17 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid