During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Maximum Ride is one I've only heard of in passing.
As for my young reading, well it was kinda standard. LOTR and HP, that's basically it. However, I did also read Alex Rider and I can definitely see some of those books having keepers.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"And since I kept Lighty waiting long enough on these here are my duo for our Highlander show watching. First up:
Who is Christoph Kuyler? What has he done?
A master assassin who specializes in lowering his target's guard, Kuyler typically masquerades as a mime or magician to entertain his marks and leave them vulnerable. First running in with Duncan in France 1783, Kuyler easily kills the Baron he was sent after and swiftly escapes. In present time, we see Kuyler once again smoothly gaining the trust of his victims before offing them and making his escape, the police left helpless.
Having encountered Duncan in a stalemate in France during the 1980s, they once again come into opposition again in present day (1993) when Duncan becomes the only witness to his crime who claims to be able to identify him under his mime makeup. Easily evading the cops, it's only with memory of Kuyler's absinthe addiction Duncan is able to track down a store that illegally sells it to get a lead.
As the episode goes on Kuyler manages to escape the cops when his sword is taken and manages on even after his idiot henchman tries and fails to kill Duncan (whom he doesn't know is immortal). At first trying to coach the man into behaving properly, when he refuses to listen to order Kuyler calmly goes "Well, I tried" and shoots him dead. Even as his police contact is exposed by Duncan, Kuyler remains undetected and faces down with the hero in his base... covered in mannequins to disguise Kuyler who stays dressed as a mime. Engaging Duncan in one of the series' trademark epic sword fights, Kuyler is eventually decapitated and killed by Duncan.
Actions and Personality?
The guy is a pro at what he does and it's only Duncan taking his head off that could finally put an end to him. Kuyler is quite jovial in a Faux Affably Evil way and explains his bears no sadism or bloodthirst: he's just found something he's good at and that's what gives his life meaning. Hell, even in his final moments his regular hilarity comes in when, in true mime form he makes a comical "This is gonna suck" expression right before his head comes off while standing there silently.
Mitigating Factors?
Now Kuyler is bad, make no mistake: he's got a bodycount of 2760 as he tells us and threatens a group of school children's lives to force Duncan down. That being said... his MO is pretty tame, his targets are relaxed generally right up until the moment of their deaths, the kids weren't even aware of being used as a chip in his schemes and he never makes good on that threat. The guy is also just so funny it makes up for it, like, as he retrieves his sword from police evidence just quips at the worker there that he saw nothing.
Verdict?
A fine keeper, say I!
And #2:
Who is Ingrid Henning? What has she done?
Opening the episode by killing a slimy wannabe-dictator communist politician, Ingrid then travels to America. Meeting with Duncan, the two recall their past fighting the Nazis, which came to tragedy in 1944 when Ingrid—struggling with the morality of killing men caught up in Hitler's schemes who were just trying to provide for their family as soldiers—missed the chance to off the psychopath when she was shot an incapacitated.
To avoid allowing such evil to fester again, Ingrid has devoted her immortal life to hunting down and killing upstart dictators before they can be. Currently she crosses paths with Duncan in the states when she targets a white supremacist politician. When Duncan and the police try to stop her, Ingrid proves clever and tricky, even going so far as to murder a stationed cop in the name of her goal of protecting world peace.
Managing to evade authorities all the while, Ingrid subtly plants a bomb at a white supremacist rally the politician is giving, hiding with the detonator when Duncan tracks her down. In a heartfelt conversation, Ingrid states that the world can't be protected without action and that even if not all of the politician's followers outright deserve death, it's a price she'll have to pay (having gone off the deep end in regards to a statement Duncan made to her during WWII). As she faces down Duncan and refuses to drop the detonator, he's forced to decapitate her while Ingrid remains unflinching to the last.
Actions and Personality?
Great here: she's polite, friendly, can run circles around the police and she's very much a WIE. Duncan can sympathize with her end goal but while he's gone on from his time fighting the Nazis, Ingrid is still haunted by feeling responsible for not gunning down Hitler. Even her death scene is quite somber, as she refuses to let go of her fight while Duncan is damn near tears when he has to kill her.
Mitigating Factors?
None... she was too slow on a shot on Hitler 50 years prior and since then she's honed her skills into that of a master assassin. The cops are utterly helpless to stop her and Duncan is hardly able to refute her points or bring himself to stop her in the end.
Also even if you don't think the rally bombing is enough bitch since Asshole Victim is in effect, killing an innocent cop is definitely an 'ends justify the means' move.
Verdict?
Easy pass.
Whoops, one more I forgot about, back to season one:
Who is Colonel Bellian? What has he done?
An immortal soldier who retired to marry the woman he loved, Everett Bellian also adopted her young daughter Lori and when his beloved died promised to always look after her. His episode starts when Lori is raped by wealthy scumbag Mark Rothwood, the child of Duncan's friend and an all around piece of misogynistic garbage. Happening upon his stepdaughter, Bellian finds out what happened and flies into a rage, summoning men loyal to him with full intent on assaulting the manor of Mark's diplomat father Allen.
Meeting with Duncan, Bellian calmly explains he's going to kill Mark and he's willing to either go around or through Duncan and the others if they stand against him. While Bellian sets up a tactical force that would impress General Hummel, Duncan and the others confront Mark, whose smug attitude and belief he can buy off anyone quickly outs him in no uncertain terms as a vile rapist.
Confronting Lori as she tries to talk him down, Bellian refuses to relent, confining her in a shed to keep her away from Mark as he continues his assault. Eventually, Mark is forced out of his hiding place after his father Allen (in a very wasted sacrifice) takes the bullets and has to be taken to hospital. Facing down Duncan with swords, Bellian loses and calmly prepares to accept his fate... and Duncan finds himself unable to finish off the noble soldier. Just then, Mark and Lori appear as the former tries to push Duncan into killing him and raises his gun to fire if they don't give into his demands. Seeing the only way to stop the bastard Lori shoots Mark dead, causing her to break down in tears while Bellian comforts her and leaves, the episode ending with Duncan and his friends distraught that they'll have to give the injured Allen the news that his son was not only a piece of shit rapist but also dead... in the same day!
Actions and Personality?
Like Ingrid this guy is a noble, noble demon and he's really only a villain by virtue of circumstance putting him in opposition of Duncan. Everyone, including his target's father, is able to understand his plight and they all find Mark utterly reprehensible. On top of that he's also a brilliant charmer and tactician, with professional soldiers loyally joining his cause and the assault he plans is pure genius, only really hindered by the fact his men have to face a damn immortal!
Mitigating Factors?
Part-way through the episode Lori angrily confronts him and claims what he's doing is for his honour rather than love for her. The thing is Bellian really doesn't come across as a sexist 'the family's woman has been disgraced' kind of guy whatsoever. Contrasting the extremely sexist Mark, Lori is just everything to Bellian, having gone from one of the two most important women in his life to the sole reminder of his wife. His fury is quite tranquil, he clearly respects and loves her and I think he proves that when his reaction to her having to kill Mark and break down as a result is to just hold her. He's furious and he's direct as hell but the overarching feeling is love for his daughter and wrath that she was so wronged. What Lori said was in anger from her end too and she also chills out towards him by the end of the episode, clinging to him while he holds her. I don't think it breaks the deal.
Verdict?
And a yes for the good Colonel and one of the few immortals to make it through their episode!
Something else to note I forgot to mention? Most of Duncan's plight against Bellian is due to his own memories when years past he saw a friend wrongfully executed which he kinda projects on to Mark. The second he realizes Bellian is in the right his attitude quickly flips to "I'll save you because I don't condone these means but fuck you, you piece of shit."
Not really sure what you'd like: he surrounds the house, he isolates them, he sends his men in to flush the place, he forces Mark to flee. He's so head and shoulders above the opposition for brains it's hard to really focus on. What makes him impressive is the fact he can sway the forces to come back him in his time of need, deploy them against a fellow immortal and stay calm while his beloved daughter has just had something so horrible done to her.
Also I thought I did but just to make sure I’m keeping it honourable: I’d like to thank Lighty for showing me this awesome show and great franchise! I’ve loved all the episodes you’ve shown me, appreciate you letting me join in on posting these guys! The characters and story are lit so I just wanna show appreciation for being allowed in on this one bro!

Just reading the description I could see it being a So Bad, It's Good type series, but I also have no desire to find out...
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid