During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Lies and Violence!
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I don't mind him, I just always found him boring compared to the other villains. I got some appreciation for him during the reread, but there was a moment when the first comments on the latest EP came in and I thought "Aw, Mevolent won't make it. Wait, Creed's a potential candidate still on my list. Fuck, Creed might do better? No way does he deserve to do better! Fuck!"
No to Mevolent.
Sorry for being absent today, but I was pretty busy with some personal stuff.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadNo to Mevolent. Don't worry, I'll probably be a No to Creed too if he's a Complete Monster or Hate Sink.
Thanks to 43, I'm not even going to bother proposing Creed here. Maybe on CM, though. Again, the next book should be his endgame, but I have no idea what it's going to be. It might involve something about turning someone into a god instead of a faceless mannequin.
... There's more context that originally made me think he'd qualify for an MB, I swear.
Really can't go one way or the other on L!Mevolent, aside from concurring that I have got to read this someday. I sympathize with difficulty reconciling characters' relative eligibility. Heck, a while back the CM thread upvoted one candidate while downvoting another from the same work for not standing out in heinousness, despite basically hijacking the first villain's plan and planning to do more damage than she did... I think the first one got by on sheer personal villainy as well as having initiated the plan, but that's more than enough cross-trope talk. Point is it's a balancing act.
There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.@Star: Please don't pothole anyone here as The Chessmaster or Manipulative Bastard. Those two are prerequisite tropes to qualifying so we don't bother to put them in entries. Please find something else.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Sorry, I was thinking of Poppy and the US President from Kingsman: The Golden Circle. Suffice to say there was thorough discussion and there's no cause for complaint; I was just sympathizing at the occasional cognitive dissonance involved when you think everything through (see also Obito
).
Edited by YamiVizziniX on Feb 4th 2021 at 9:12:10 AM
There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.Ah yes that. Man takes me back to really early and embarrassing memories of when I first came on the threads. Lol.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I mean, very few things will top me trying to EP Jack Welker when I first came on the thread. I really had no idea what I was doing
Can I tweak an entry from one of my favourite characters a bit. Nothing major. Just some pothole additions and specifying he's from the third series.
- Blackadder the Third: The third Blackadder, Edmund Blackadder, is the butler to the idiotic Prince George of Regency England. A roguish cheat who constantly scams money out of his employer, Blackadder is also left with the task of running the country, manipulating the election of his completely idiotic sidekick Baldrick to the House of Commons to vote down a measure harmful to the prince by setting up a Rotten Borough and taking over the position as the only voter as well as the supervisor of elections by murdering his predecessors. When a bet is made for him to one-up The Scarlet Pimpernel, he simply opts to head down to a coffee house and find an aristocrat at the French embassy. When the real Scarlet Pimpernel is about to reveal his treachery, Blackadder promptly murders him and wins a great award from Prince George by claiming to be the true Scarlet Pimpernel. Even in the finale, Blackadder sees Prince George dead when they've switched identities and takes the chance to claim to be the real prince to the insane King George III, gleefully ascending to the throne of England several years later.
Edited by miraculous on Feb 4th 2021 at 6:23:40 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I guess the closest thing to an EP I regret was Oogie Boogie from that one PS 2 Nightmare Before Christmas game, and even then I wasn't too sure about it myself.
BTW, can I ask a question?
Would you guys say Sam & Max would be viable for discussion?
The character is from the Telltale games, and all things considered gets it pretty well compared to the other baddies. And no, it's not the Narrator from Season 3.
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Sweet. The games tone is basically like the cartoon, but with a bit more adult humor, some slightly more competent villains and a lot more snark.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Feb 4th 2021 at 6:44:04 AM
I’m good for the changes Mir but does “The Third” belong in the work title too? I thought the work was just “Blackadder”?
Sam & Max is a Film Noir parody? That’s probably fine for MB.
Edited by 43110 on Feb 4th 2021 at 9:49:46 AM
Oh each season has it's own specific and official title. This one is called Blackadder the third
And my last writeup:
- Xenoblade Chronicles 2: The enigmatic Jin is a Flesh Eater Blade who used to be revered as a hero known as the Paragon of Torna. Jin succumbed to despair and misanthropy after his kingdom's people were slaughtered and he lost his Driver Lora, and proceeded to found the Organization of Torna with a cabal of fellow misanthropes. A taciturn No-Nonsense Nemesis, Jin curbstomps the heroes almost every time they meet and lectures Rex on his own personal failings. Jin's most impressive gambit comes when he nearly orchestrates a war between two separate nations as a diversion to his attempt to kill the Architect himself and destroy the world. Not without an immense level of honor, Jin is ultimately so impressed with Rex's personal growth that he gives his life to save Rex and defeat Amalthus in the endgame, recanting his misanthropic ideals and coming to peace with himself. Tragic but utterly driven, the heroes themselves pledge to remember Jin as a "splendid soul" in spite of his atrocious actions.
Does anyone read / watch Bakemonogatari here ?
I uh just started and theirs a really large number of material to go through (I already have potentials) so wouldn't mind help ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Alright, Scraggle broing me up right there gave me the energy:
- Magnificent Bastard Quotes
- Magnificent Bastard Anime And Manga
- Magnificent Bastard Fan Works
- Magnificent Bastard Film
- Magnificent Bastard Literature
- Magnificent Bastard Live Action TV
- Magnificent Bastard Video Games
- Magnificent Bastard Other Media
- Magnificent Bastard Star Wars
- The Elder Scrolls
Didn't get the chance to edit the Elder Scrolls stuff but I think I can trust the two responsible for it on SPAG and snazzy sentence structure
I... just started JoJo, Legend of the Galactic Heroes and the Highlander series with Lighty... sorry man
Also @ My pothole fellas, I'll leave the sandboxes until tomorrow morning so y'all can do your thing. Also to those who added spoiler tags in their entries: because those only go on YMMV and not main pages, please lend me a hand putting them on the proper spots when I add them to said YMMV sheets.
Edited by 43110 on Feb 4th 2021 at 10:53:34 AM
No to Malevolent
Regarding crossovers, two of the three proposals I'm genuinely embarrassed about are Diz and Ransom since they were both failed CM candidates and I feel like I should have known that they don't count (which is why I'm never proposing High T)
Regarding Anton Chigurh, I really don't think he counts, he's not a cackling sadist but he is a sadist who kills with little reason and does enjoy it (him cracking a huge Slasher Smile while strangling the cop is the best example there). The big deal breaker for me is killing Carla Jean, which is purely an act of spite and cruelty since she had nothing to do with anything.
I remember years back when I proposed Chara in the CM thread. That was a bad discussion on my part, and I really would like to shoot sixteen year old me.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Feb 4th 2021 at 11:16:02 AM
