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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#36201: Jan 26th 2021 at 6:10:57 AM

Hey fun fact. Massee also played Casey Steele on CSI New york whose up on cm. So I think this is the first time that an actor has played both a cm and mb from the same live action work who also werent the same guy.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#36203: Jan 26th 2021 at 6:39:06 AM

'Yes' to Richardson

@Dood: Well the film moreso portrays "demons" as just really evil people, not legitimate demonic entities...so people know they're "evil", of course, but none know they're activy being hunted by Adam. Also, I have no idea why this isn't a TV show because dammit now I realize how great an idea that is [lol]

@j: Fwiw, even though Adam is a bit of an Unreliable Narrator, the "letting Fenton get away with it" is said in the scene when he's coming clean about everything to Doyle. Adam outright says "Fenton knew I'd come for him sooner or later, that's why he left the notes (at his killings), to try to lure me in. I guess he figured once the killings made the news I'd come for him...but I had to wait until God put him on my list. To come before would have been murder." That's one I'm pretty comfortable with saying is explicitly true and shows that Adam was deliberately holding off on ending Fenton's rampage because he wanted to adhere to "the rules."

Edited by Ravok on Jan 26th 2021 at 10:02:09 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#36204: Jan 26th 2021 at 6:41:22 AM

Hmm, I'm guess I'll [tup] then, if his father can die what's to say Adam can't die from violence either.

Edited by jjjj2 on Jan 26th 2021 at 9:42:11 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#36205: Jan 26th 2021 at 7:00:41 AM

Yes to Adam and the Detective

So the second Lost quote seemed more popular but the first got just enough votes to squeak by, so I added both to the drafts just to be safe.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#36206: Jan 26th 2021 at 7:17:14 AM

Yes to Adam and Richardson. Great job guys!

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#36207: Jan 26th 2021 at 7:44:20 AM

Yea to both the above

As for Dabi, who should go under All For One:

  • Dabi, born Toya Todoroki, is one of the most dangerous and crafty members of the League of Villains. A master of psychological warfare who enjoys making his opponents doubt themselves with well-placed words, Dabi later reveals he is only using the League towards his own purpose: the ruination of his father Enji Todoroki, new number one hero Endeavor. Recording a video to expose to hero society the darker side of his father and exposing the abuse he put his family through, Dabi releases it at a moment of incredible crisis to destroy faith in his father and hero society while revealing himself and his true identity to Endeavor while facing off with his youngest sibling Shoto, aiming to tear down hero society, spread the ideals of his idol Stain and utterly destroy his father.

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#36208: Jan 26th 2021 at 7:51:38 AM

[tup]Adam and Richardson.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Trashman91 Since: Oct, 2018
#36209: Jan 26th 2021 at 8:09:21 AM

So if I want to reserve something, I write it down here and put my screenname next to it?

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#36210: Jan 26th 2021 at 8:43:08 AM

Surprise The Stupendium candidate!

What's the Work?

As per usual, The Stupendium is a songwriter who makes Filk Songs for video games. I've already got a whopping 3 candidates from him, so let's see if we can add a fourth, shall we?

Today's song is based off of the Hitman games, specifically Hitman 2, and was recently remastered to celebrate the announcement of Hitman 3. Nothing big was changed, just some sharper audio and voice effects.

Here's the song, "The Second", for reference.

Anyways, it doesn't take a genius to know who we're talking about today.

Who is Agent 47?

Once again, Agent 47 is the worlds most skilled assassin, being hired for jobs that require a certain someone dead, completing them with deadly precision. He's willing to do anything to get the job done, wether it would be eliminating their guards, donning disguises, poisoning food, or just flat out shooting the target with either his silencer or a sniper rifle.

The song adds a few methods as well, including dropping a toaster in a bathtub, removing the breaks in a car, something apparently involving a rubber duck, and even working at a Burger King and poisoning someone's onion rings. All of which are described as just as efficient as his usual plans as described by the song.

Lastly, the song greatly focuses on the stealth element of his game, bragging about how you'll literally never see him coming, with 47 using his gadgets and skills to his advantage. As the song boasts, "One second you're alive, the next you aren't". The song ultimately focuses on how 47 always gets his target, usually in either the most professional and pragmatic, or sometimes over-the-top and bombastic, way imaginable, all while being completely undetected as he leaves.

Is he Magnificent?

Charm is the usual with Stupendium. The charm from the main 47 is his ruthless stoicalness that makes him look cool, and Greg manages to nail that by presenting the song in a Cold Ham fashion. It's still bombastic and boastful, but in a more professional and descriptive way, with the lyrics often going straight to the point. Of course, there's still the magnitude of clever puns and the spectacular effects and editing, so it also still has that going for it.

Seeing how it's a song about Hitman, of course his planning skills are great, being able to come up with a plan to kill the target without anybody noticing, often being very resourceful to boot. And of course, there's the creative ways 47 dispatches his targets, pulling them off while completely underneath suspicion.

Is he a Bastard?

Again, he's a hitman who kills his targets in very quick but brutal ways, often not hesitating to eliminate or even kill any non-target in his way. All part of the job, of course, nothing more, nothing less.

Except for the Burger King Onion Rings bit, he clearly crossed the line there.

Migitating Qualities?

I've actually had him considered for quite a bit, but I thought that he wouldn't be different enough from his main counterpart. After some thinking, though, I realized that if Mr. House could get in with the only real change being a Freudian Excuse, than a few more kills and a different perspective should be fine. Otherwise, none really.

Overall?

How's he looking?

He's probably gonna be my last Stupendium candidate until another potential one comes out. For now, I've a new potential target.

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#36211: Jan 26th 2021 at 8:44:26 AM

Easy [tup] to 47, been listening to that song for a while and waiting for your EP.

Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Jan 26th 2021 at 8:44:37 AM

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#36213: Jan 26th 2021 at 8:53:36 AM

[tup]47

Exciting news everyone. I found a copy of a 1910 French stage play which pits Sherlock holmes against arsene lupin. I'll be reading it and tell you if Lupin counts.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SpaceProtagonist (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
#36214: Jan 26th 2021 at 9:22:49 AM

Okay everyone, so I've got a bit of a dilemma here. You see, I've got another idea for an MB proposal which I'm positive will make the cut. The issue is not the essay part where I explain the history, and their actions, whether they go too far, or even the competition. It's that part where I'm supposed to write a short paragraph about what the villain has done after it's approved. So to make sure I don't go overboard with the writing (even by accident), I'm going to see if there's a word count to use off of.

Also, congrats on Willy Wonka (both Gene Wilder and Johnny Deep) and Rick Blaine becoming official M Bs. I see a bright future for cinema history.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#36215: Jan 26th 2021 at 9:26:32 AM

Space unless the candidate is one that appears in over 10 seasons, my advice is to try to keep the word count of your EP under 2500. Also try to keep your word count of your write-up under 200 (if you can). Going a bit over that is fine, but not too much.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#36218: Jan 26th 2021 at 10:05:44 AM

[tup]47

@mir Dayum, you goin’ for the rare shit today

@space I mean if the character is massive, I’ll just say make it as short as you possibly can while still keeping the description

Edited by nwotyzal on Jan 26th 2021 at 10:37:10 AM

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#36219: Jan 26th 2021 at 10:47:24 AM

Found this.

  • Magnificent Bastard: Boss Hoss, who sometimes seems in danger of being foiled, almost always gets the proud and pity-filled last laugh.

Sounds decent? The source is The Heart, She Holler.

Yeah, no.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#36220: Jan 26th 2021 at 11:33:12 AM

Yes to 47 and I'll add that to pending after work. For Integra let's go easy on the potholes, there are three character pages I've gotta tag into it.

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#36221: Jan 26th 2021 at 12:02:43 PM

Hopefully this is detailed enough after y last few snafus.

What's the work?

The Lost Stars is an Another Side, Another Story sequel to the space warfare The Lost Fleet series. The Lost Stars (no relation to the Star Wars book with the same name) follows a rebellion against the dictatorial Syndicate Worlds in the star system of Midway, with the protagonists struggling to fight back Syndicate attempts at reconquest, aliens on their borders, and Psycho Supporters on their own staffs who favor hanging onto things like election tampering and executing anyone who disagrees with their leaders.

Who is Granaile Imalleye? Imalleye is the daughter of a Syndicate CEO who was executed after being wrongfully (albeit innocently) accused of Stealing from the Till by Midway's leader, President Iceni. First appearing in the final book of the series (Shattered Spear) Imalleye (birth name Grace O'Malley) is a Space Pirate who takes command of multiple star systems and declares a Rebellion against the Syndicate Worlds while building up for a campaign against Midway. Only it turns out Imalleye is still taking orders form the syndicate worlds to lure Midway's fleet into a trap so she can kill Iceni and avenge her father. Then right in the middle of a three-way battle (Imalleye and her Syndicate allies v. Midway vs. a faction of hostile aliens) Imalleye suddenly turns on the Syndicate World felt and declares herself an independent power for real.

Is Imalleye magnificent?

Probably. She convinces the Syndicate Worlds into giving her command of the military forces of multiple star systems to make it look like she's a genuine warlord power even though that exact same strategy has already been tried and backfired on them horribly. She keeps up a mask of being blinded by revenge until exactly the right moment to wipe out the loyalists in her forces. She's a skillful military commander who is good at anticipating the actions of opposing forces, using that to either gain an advantage over them, or to let them escape form her ships without blowing her cover. The heroes spend most of Shattered Spear completely fooled and thinking she's already an independent warlord. She doesn't bother to take an official title as the head of state for her new government, just having her name be enough when she introduces herself. She seems to command total respect (as opposed to fear) from her subordinates. Finally, she's willing to forego revenge against Iceni by recognizing that the Institution that manipulated Iceni and killed her father is the true target deserving of her vengeance. Imalleye openly says that she won't forgive Iceni for her role in what happened to her father, but that she'll settle for just telling her that to her face while agreeing to a mutual defense agreement to keep both of their governments safe from military reprisals.

Is Imalleye a bitch?

Maybe just a little. She comes across as genuinely interested in a new and better type of government, but one where she's in charge. Iceni notes that she'll be a useful, but dangerous, neighbor who could potentially turn into a genuine enemy one day if they show too much weakness. She's also willing to send her ships after Midway forces to maintain her cover, knowing that there is a possibility that the Midway ships will be destroyed (implicitly feeling that if their good enough to survive, then she won't begrudge them that, and if they aren't then it isn't as if they were her people).

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#36223: Jan 26th 2021 at 12:07:38 PM

Yes this is more than enough detail. Good EP. [tup] Imalleye.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#36224: Jan 26th 2021 at 12:08:01 PM

[tup]Imalleye

Ep is much better and detailed btw. Good job.

[up][up][up][up]Sounds fine. Tell me which you want to not be in it.

Edited by miraculous on Jan 26th 2021 at 12:08:15 PM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love

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