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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#36176: Jan 25th 2021 at 6:33:56 PM

While Dabi is far from my favorite among the League of Villains and some elements of his version of his life story don't exactly add up with other characters' accounts, I'm definitely going with a yes. So far he's been an absolute pro and a brilliant Consummate Liar, with more than enough sympathetic traits to keep him in the right zone for this. He has my full support.

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#36177: Jan 25th 2021 at 6:34:31 PM

Aye to Dabi and both Lost quotes.

MalleoWeegee Evolution Requires Sacrifice. from Eurasia Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
#36178: Jan 25th 2021 at 6:39:06 PM

[tup] to Trap Team duo, Dabi, and the two Lost quotes.

"I SHALL UNIFY THE WORLD! FROM ALPHA TO OMEGA... BOW DOWN TO ME!!!"
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#36180: Jan 25th 2021 at 6:45:25 PM

Yea to the Lost quotes and the Trap Team pair.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#36181: Jan 25th 2021 at 6:48:22 PM

I'll give a [tup] to Dabi

Also I found this on Dabi's character sheet

  • Hate Sink: As Dabi, Toya has become an irredeemable monster. He's callous and rude towards his fellow villains, openly admits he doesn't care about them and exploits Twice's death for his own agenda. He also exposes his family's abuse just to spite Endeavor, not caring how it will effect his already hospitalized mother. He has no love for his siblings and expresses a desire to kill Shoto, and was disappointed that his brother Natsuo, who he used to cling for support, was not killed by Ending. Somehow downplayed, since he has a pretty good Freudian Excuse for hating his father and the hero system, but the length he goes to achieve this is taking things too far even for a villain. Not helping his case is the fact that Shoto, who also had an abusive childhood by the hands of Endeavour, remained a generally good if cold and rude person, didn't hate all heroes and while he too wanted to disown their father, he kept innocents out of it and his love for the innocent family members stayed intact.

This might seems to be a misuse of the trope Hate Sink and I definitely trust Lighty's argument over Dabi over the person who added the entry especially since I also watch My Hero Acedemia, but still I want to ask about this entry and if I should cut or keep the entry, given that Hate Sink and Magnificent Bastard are incompatible.

Okay problem solved

Edited by G-Editor on Jan 25th 2021 at 9:51:11 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#36182: Jan 25th 2021 at 6:49:48 PM

I already cut it and brought it up on the Hate Sink cleanup.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#36183: Jan 25th 2021 at 7:27:47 PM

Oh I was confused earlier, I thought you wanted to do the EP two weeks earlier but I see now you were unsure because his story wasn't done. Well I'll just say Dabi definitely counts now, and if he doesn't count in the future, we'll cut him then.

[down] [lol]That's good.

Edited by jjjj2 on Jan 25th 2021 at 10:47:28 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#36184: Jan 25th 2021 at 7:45:01 PM

[tup] to Dabi. I always found his Heroic Sacrifice in the final Harry Potter entry to be absolutely gut wrenching.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#36185: Jan 25th 2021 at 8:43:04 PM

[tup] Nightshade and Dabi.

[up] "Dabi is a free elf!"

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#36187: Jan 25th 2021 at 9:08:03 PM

Yes to the man who dabs, Dabi.

Condolences Snoke/kylo and your family.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#36188: Jan 25th 2021 at 10:04:33 PM

Sorry Kylo.

Best to you and your family.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#36189: Jan 26th 2021 at 12:00:59 AM

I am terribly sorry to hear that, Kylo/Snoke, you and yours are in all our thoughts.

Definite 'Yes' to Dabi!

I'll have a rather...tricky candidate in the coming hours, but for now, here's my pending:

  • Castle in the Sky: Captain Dola is a tough-as-nails, boastful pirate who pillages the skies for wealth and treasures beyond compare with her own family for crew. Having learned of the existence of a necklace capable of leading one to the lost, floating city of Laputa, Dola stages on attack on a military escort blimp, tearing through the defenses and only losing the necklace when the young girl Sheeta slips away with it. Tracking down Sheeta through use of disguises and allying with her friend Pazu to rescue her from Colonel Muska, Dola recruits the children to her crew and uses them as guides to find Laputa for herself. Even when caught by Muska's men, Dola escapes with Pazu's help, imparts a useful weapon to him in return, and goes on to loot Laputa for as many riches as her crew can carry, walking away from the adventure immensely rich and having gained the friendship of Sheeta and Pazu for her gruff, yet lovable, maternal nature.

  • Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory: Willy Wonka himself is an eccentric, whimsical trickster of an entrepreneur whose candy company has given an admirable reputation worldwide. Able to create wondrous confections with use of state-of-the-art technology and his army of well-compensated workers the Oompa Loompas, Wonka puts forth a contest for the world to find five Golden Tickets hidden inside his candy, raking in a fortune from the ensuing sales before inviting the five children who locate the tickets to his Chocolate Factory. Taking the children and their guardians on a magically dangerous journey through the strange factory, Wonka tempts each of the children with their vices then sits back and watches as they endanger themselves by toying with Wonka's creations, all to narrow down the winners until only Charlie remains. After putting Charlie through a final, brutal test of moral character, Wonka reveals he planned the entire day to find a proper heir to his candy empire and hands the keys over to Charlie, promising the boy that he and his family will live happily ever after inside the Chocolate Factory.

  • Hellsing: Sir Integra Fairbrook Wingates Hellsing is the ruthless leader of the Hellsing organization, having assumed command as a mere child by murdering her treacherous family and asserting such dominance over others that her leadership went unquestioned. Having sole mastery over the monstrous Alucard, Integra utilizes him over the years in snuffing out potential vampire and demonic threats, successfully protecting the world over in style and secrecy from evil. When the Millennium group begins launching attacks on Hellsing and London itself, Integra keeps a cool head and comes up with traps and strategies on the fly, staying one step ahead of her foes and facing down near-death with stoic fierceness. Manipulating even the Iscariot organization to her assistance, Integra overcomes Millennium and the Major through use of Alucard and her own resolve, personally executing the Major while shutting down his insane ideology before going on to reign as the respected leader of Hellsing for decades more to come.

  • Casablanca: Rick Blaine is a cynical, smooth operator of a saloon, using the guise of a mere bar to mask the massive amounts of illegal gambling he oversees. Bribing local police and facing down Nazi majors with wit and laid-back suaveness, Rick expertly hides valuable Letters of Transit from even a probing ransacking of his saloon while treating his employees so well that rival businessmen can't buy them off. After bitterly threatening to let his old flame, Ilsa, and her husband be arrested by the Nazis due to her abandoning Rick years ago, Rick ultimately accepts his still raging feelings for Ilsa and uses his passion to propel him into a scheme in which he sells off his saloon while securing the futures of his employees, manipulates Captain Renault into a trap, and murders the Nazi Major Strausser. Rick then ensures that Ilsa and her revolutionary husband are spirited away safely to America, imparting powerful and timeless words to Ilsa before escaping the Third Reich with a spring in his step and the start of a "beautiful friendship" with a befriended Renault.

Edited by Ravok on Jan 26th 2021 at 12:01:40 PM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#36190: Jan 26th 2021 at 1:00:26 AM

Alrighty, hate to doublepost, but here's one from a hella good flick I recently watched... I'm a bit conflicted on it but I absolutely think it's worth the discussion.

What's the work?

Frailty is a neat little psychological horror-thriller directed by and starring Bill Paxton, with a supporting cast that includes Matthew McConaughey and Powers Boothe!

The premise is simple...a man enters a FBI office at the dead of night to confess to the agent in charge of a serial killing case that he knows who the killer is. A trip down memory lane is taken...which brings us to our candidate himself.

Who is "Fenton" Meiks? What has he done?

"Fenton" Meiks, played by Mcconaughey, appears at the start of the film to FBI agent Wesley Doyle to confess that his brother, Adam Meiks, is the vicious "God's Hand" Serial Killer on the loose. "Fenton" tells Doyle about the boys' past together...as children, their loving father began to showcase signs of mental illness, namely claiming that God and angels were communicating with him to "destroy demons" (as in, people with evil spirits like murderers and child molesters) in the world using an ability to touch them and reveal their sins, then kill them with a "magical" axe.

Their father kidnapped and murdered several people under the delusion that they were demons, raising Fenton and Adam to follow in his footsteps...and while Adam believed and helped his father, Fenton was horrified and grew more and more rebellious until he finally murdered their father to end his killing spree.

"Fenton" in the present claims that Adam went on to continue his father's delusion and work, hence the God's Hand killings, and last night, Adam called "Fenton", confessed and killed himself over the phone, and now "Fenton" is telling Doyle all that happened. "Fenton" ultimately convinces Doyle to drive "Fenton" out to the Rose Garden the Meiks boys used to play in, to show Doyle that it's actual the burial ground for the God's Hand killings.

All seems well and good...until The Reveal. Twofold.

"Fenton" is actually Adam, and the "delusion" of God guiding the Meiks to kill demons is real. After their father was murdered by Fenton, Adam grew up and continued his work in secret, using his abilities and the names God supplies him to find "demons" and murder them, getting away with dozens over the decades. Fenton himself became a vicious Serial Killer of the innocent, dubbed the God's Hand killer, until the day that Adam was messaged by God to kill Fenton next.

Adam promptly tracked down and murdered Fenton, then buried his body in the Rose Garden...and as Doyle realizes the truth, Adam lays his hands on Doyle and reveals another twist: that Doyle himself is one of the "demons" on Adam's list, having brutally stabbed his own mother to death, and the entire night of confession and misdirection was to lure Doyle to his doom.

Murdering Doyle, Adam proceeds to expertly frame everything on Fenton as the God's Hand killer, leaving enough evidence to convince everyone that Fenton was behind the recent spat of disappearances and even Doyle's, all while hiding Fenton's body so the cops will be chasing someone who's already long dead for years to come.

Meanwhile? Adam goes back to his day job...being the likeable sheriff of his hometown with a wife that loves him and knows and supports his "extracurricular" activities. Adam cheerfully misdirects a FBI agent who shows up to inquire about Fenton and Doyle, and sees the FBI agent off with a firm handshake, using his powers to verify the man has a good soul and telling the agent "You're a good man."

And so the film ends, with Adam having gotten away with everything, ready to be contacted by God once again for his next list of targets...

Is "Fenton"/Adam magnificent?

Absolutely. What once was a slightly-bratty, apparently naive victim of a psychotic father...is revealed to have been a willing apprentice to being a servant of God in destroying evil in the world. Adam carries on his father's actually legit work of killing evil people/"destroying demons" for decades while never being caught or suspected, and when Fenton himself tries to be a nasty killer, Adam eventually kills him and pins everything on him. And then there's the fact that Adam brilliantly manipulates Doyle and the audience the entire film to get Doyle into a trap for Adam to reveal Doyle's murderous evil and kill him. All while keeping up a public guise as a law enforcement agent. Damn.

Is Adam a bastard?

Mmmmm...yes, I'd say enough of one. Adam's a brutal vigilante serial killer, with his victims almost always being a murderer themselves, ranging from a woman who killed her husband to a molester and killer of toddlers, and he's been at it for decades. And the thing that really gives him a push IMO, is that Adam knows damn well that Fenton is off killing people, yet Adam waits until such a time that God puts Fenton on one of the "lists of demons" He supplies to Adam before he goes about stopping Fenton, despite having plenty opportunity beforehand to end his brother's slayings.

Adam allowed his psycho brother to kill innocents because he wanted to follow proper procedure and wait for God to give him the express go-ahead. If that ain't depraved negligence... [lol]

Any other issues?

My one real hesitation with Adam is that...well, he literally has God on his side. Adam is casual and unthreatened by walking into an FBI headquarters, cheerfully greeting agents left and right, then walking out with an agent who turns up missing hours later...why? Because, as Adam puts it when Doyle tries to beg for his life and claim the FBI has plenty security footage of them together, "God will protect me."

And....He does. The video footage of the FBI base is corrupted every time Adam is onscreen. No one in the building remembers his face. One of the agents who saw him multiple times and even spoke directly to him goes to meet Adam in his public guise of sheriff the next day and doesn't recognize he's the guy from last night.

This throws a possible wrench in things: is Adam cheating too much by virtue of having an omnipotent being corrupt video footage and alter memories to keep him out of trouble? Adam absolutely has charm and intelligent feats himself—his entire manipulation of Doyle and keeping up a Villain with Good Publicity status shows that amazingly—but he's also so confident that he can't be stopped because he knows God will "blind the eyes of (his) enemies" when needed and give him little "coincidental" lucky breaks.

It's....an interesting, tough one, for sure. Adam hits all the qualifications well, but one can also argue the primary reason he's so successful is he's got God watching his ass. Manipulating Doyle was all him, but he was only able to walk into the building and do so because he knew God would prevent anyone from identifying him afterwards.

Final Verdict?

I lean Keep because I unabashedly loved this movie and Adam is a great character, but I'm definitely interested in having a dialogue and conversation on how much we can weigh Adam's...uh, ally helping him out against his magnificence.

Is he cheating too much for it to be fair? Is he intelligent and cool enough on his own for it to be allowed given the "cheating" just amounts to preventing folks from recognizing him? Is it some combo?

Let the voting begin.

Edited by Ravok on Jan 26th 2021 at 1:07:04 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#36192: Jan 26th 2021 at 2:12:53 AM

[tup]Adam and dabi

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#36193: Jan 26th 2021 at 2:47:00 AM

Honestly not sure on Adam. I'll sleep on it.

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#36194: Jan 26th 2021 at 3:46:40 AM

Well, if letting Adam into a building was God's only help and not the "Manipulate and kill the targets and frame my brother for it while I go back to my happy job" bit, I'm willing to throw him a [tup].

Two questions though:

1. Are the targets aware they're Demons?

2. Why isn't this a TV show?

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#36195: Jan 26th 2021 at 4:27:10 AM

[tup] to Dabi and Adam (really I don't think God helping him out is such an issue, unless its specifically implied that's the only reason he's so successful. His interactions with Doyle prove he's a brilliant strategist and manipulator in his own right.)

And I'll second this would make such a great TV show.

Edited by MGD107 on Jan 26th 2021 at 4:27:30 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#36197: Jan 26th 2021 at 5:22:20 AM

So the Original CSI. I'm sure your all familiar with it. So I'll skip the work introduction.

This guy appears in the Season 12 Episode 8 "Crime after Crime"

Who is Detective Stanley Richardson?

Stanley Richardson (played by the late, great Michael Massee) is a well respected detective and one of the best of Las Vegas detectives whose now retired. For decades, officers would at their drinking spot, would be able to have as their ear and listen to their woes "the guys who got away" and the miscarriage of justice enraged him. Richardson eventually discovers he's dying of pancreatic cancer...so draws up a list of the worst of the worst to get away with it and sets about fixing it before he passes on.

He convinces his friend Det. Sam Vega to be his angel of justice and communicates with him to have these people murdered in the exact manner of their victims with the exact same weapons (he went to evidence storage) and booked this stuff out before he retired. Talking phone calls with him to plan what must be done as he's too sickly to do it himself:

  • Kevin at 15 years of age, beat an 8 year old to death with an arcade ball and got away with it as no one could trace it to despite being the prime and obvious suspect...Vega kills him in the same manner in his victim before dressing him up as the same scared 8 year old he killed.
  • Escartio is a cartel member who murdered the innocent girlfriend of his rival by putting car tires around and setting her ablaze while alive but got away as he went into the wind....Not so now as he finds himself meeting the same screaming and blazing fate.
  • A mother forced her 12 year old daughter to overdose on PCP which caused her to rip herself to death...but got away due to contaminated evidence...Richardson has Vega shove pcp down her throat and have her kill herself in the same manner.

Anyway they trace the murders to richardson whose in his hospital bed (the nurses say hes actually one of the nicest patients here). He politely and calmly greets them before confessing to his crimes having no fear or doubt despite them wanting to know his accomplice. He says they can look around too as hes got nothing to hide...they find dirt in his flower box thats disturbed and find a locked box where the pcp was that vega took it from. The lockbox also contains a secret compartment with a knife implying another potential victim.

Anyway they trace calls that richardson gave to Vega and get word from richardson's protegee that the next guy would be Alex, a man who killed his wife near a lake but they couldnt convict since the DA didnt want to charge bodyless murders. They find Vega trying to drown Alex and end up shooting him. That said they wonder why in such a large lake...this is where he wanted to drown Alex...its where he wife was killed and vega/richardson forced him to come here. They get divers and find the body with a bullet that matches alex's weapon..so hes going away.

Anyway richardson dies in peace and leaves a special message as a farewell

RICHARDSON: To my colleagues, who have shared the burden of the badge. Many of you won't agree with my methods, but all of you will understand... what it's like to have all the pieces set before you... the picture painted broad and clear... and watch the killer walk away... to live the life they tore from others. Well, I could not let that continue. I made a list. Five names. Those most deserving of vengeance. And now, as I embark into life's last mystery, I do so in peace.

That said they wonder : five names. But only 4 victims were found so who was the fifth. Turns out it was vega. The knife they found was used to kill an informant who richardson always suspected was Vega who did the deed. he couldn't pin it on him but he did keep the knife....this entire time he manipulated vega into either getting killed or arrested with him none the wiser even to his death.

Magnificent ?

He isnt in the episode very long but he gives one hell of an impression. He's so calm and polite, effortlessly not letting the detectives razzle him and calmly confesses to everything. While tricking them into finding the lock box to put Vega down/away. Theirs no breakdown or any hint of not being cool, calm and collected.

This is a man who uses his friend who he knows is dirty to carry out his justice murders while planning to hang him out to dry and vene leading detectives to him (they found the lockbox since he allowed them to search his room). He planned it all " finding these people, even getting the same pcp sample used in the daughter's murder) and he communicates to vega how he wants it done. Even Alex doesn't escape to (its ambiguous whether he was hoping for him to die or get arrested) but either way he wins. All 5 gone for good. He then dies happily with complete dignity. Not bad I'd say.

Bastard ?

Well yeah his murders are exceptionally brutal...because thats what these people did to their victims. Richardson is determined to write these wrongs and he even manipulates and uses and disposes of his corrupt friend to get it. Bad enough imo thanks to the sheer brutality but not too bad thanks to who its being dealt to.

Conclusion ?

Easy keep imo

Edited by miraculous on Jan 26th 2021 at 5:23:31 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#36198: Jan 26th 2021 at 5:55:04 AM

[tup] to Detective Stanley Richardson. Another great one from this franchise.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#36199: Jan 26th 2021 at 5:58:23 AM

For CSI it is a cop show and he is a murderer so I guess I'll say yes to Stanley.

As for my Adam my hesitance is twofold. In addition to agreeing with Ravok that he probably has god too much on his side, Adam is an Unreliable Narrator. How do we know he only waited until god told him to kill Fenton? Obviously he had to know that Fenton killed people with him over the years, but what if he didn't know what he did afterwards? Now this does tie in with his manipulations, but that might make him too much of a Guile Hero. I'm abstaining.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#36200: Jan 26th 2021 at 6:08:30 AM

I'll give a yes to Richardson. Brutal, but only goes after Asshole Victims.


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