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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#36126: Jan 24th 2021 at 8:37:39 PM

[tup] To Wolfgang and Integra

So....My aunty has Brain Cancer, and might die in a few months. In addition to other, Minor dramas. So...heavy stuff is going on in my Family.

I just wanted to say that to say how I'll probably just be hanging around Fandom threads for awhile and only comment on this or the other cleanup ones when something interests / Concerns me, til sometime later atleast.

Bow to the Prototype
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#36127: Jan 24th 2021 at 8:38:45 PM

Sorry about that. Take as much time as you need.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#36129: Jan 24th 2021 at 8:41:10 PM

I'm very sorry to here that kylo/snoke. Take all the time you need.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#36130: Jan 24th 2021 at 8:42:09 PM

I'm so sorry man. Message me if you need anything, I really don't know what to say other than I'll be thinking of you and your loved ones.

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#36131: Jan 24th 2021 at 9:06:06 PM

Wolfgang sounds ok. I'd thought that the Grumley's, Ulrich and Nolan were already approved based on a couple of comments and apologize for being premature about that. I can go back and take them down if necessary.

Also, my condolences Snoketrope. I recently lost a grandparent. It's an easier loss to take when your expecting it due to an illness, but it can still be hard. Also, unless your already vaccinated, be careful about social distancing after the funeral, during the wake. My family and I had a hard time with that, although fortunately no one got sick.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#36132: Jan 24th 2021 at 9:14:24 PM

God, Kylo, man, I'm so sorry...please, same offer from 43 applies here, take care of yourself and be well.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#36133: Jan 24th 2021 at 9:15:39 PM

Condolences, Snoke. I am very sorry.

[tup] Grumleys, Nolan, Boles, First Omet'iklan, Sigtryggr, Rick, and Wolfgang. [tdown] Ulrich.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#36134: Jan 24th 2021 at 9:35:36 PM

My deepest condolences Snoke, can’t imagine how hard it must be at the moment. Just try and pull through and try and be involved as much in her life as you can.

[tup]Rick and Wolfgang

Found this on the character page for Old Man Henderson for Simon Breckinridge

  • Magnificent Bastard: From behind the scenes, he managed to close multiple gaps in security, sleep with most of the attractive ladies in town, and pass all the blame to other people. After retiring, he has enough embezzled funds that he could be tried for treason, and uses the party to his own ends to find the cultists who killed his wife while passing himself off as a secret agent of the crown who came to re-enact a James Bond movie.

Just cut it. Obviously it uses the old definition (aka Guile Hero), and besides, he pales when compared to a man blew up a cult with a tanker truck; killed more cultists by dropping a yacht on them, and managed to permanently kill Hastur all in search of his missing lawn gnomes

Edited by nwotyzal on Jan 24th 2021 at 10:53:25 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#36135: Jan 24th 2021 at 9:39:33 PM

My condolences for you Snoke. I too lost a recently lost a relative so i know how it feels

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#36136: Jan 25th 2021 at 3:53:02 AM

[tup]Wolfgang

Sorry to hear about that snoke/kylo. Major condolences.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#36137: Jan 25th 2021 at 4:18:03 AM

My condolences, Snoke.

Here's Wolfgangs writeup:

  • Wolfgang is a member of the Doom Raiders, and proves to be more cunning than his appearance and temper would suggest. Tasked by The Golden Queen to retrieve Kaos to power a time machine, he and Dr. Krankcase trap and capture him, with Wolfgang proceeding with his plan. Taking Kaos for himself, telling Krankcase that he's just preparing the machine, he takes over Time Town and proceeds to shoot down the Skylanders ship when they arrive. Upon cornering him, he reveals his true plan to travel to the future and take it over, succeeding by the time the Skylanders arrive in the future, planning to hypnotize the rest of the population using his Big Bad Woofer. Taking his defeat and Heel–Face Turn well, Wolfgang proves to be one of the Skylanders more trickier foes.

By the way, the rest of the raiders don't count. They're a colorful bunch, but they rely on brute force to get their way, even Dr. Krankcase. Kaos himself is also a no-go, for as surprisingly competent as he is, he's also a gullible Sore Loser.

There was another character I was tempted to do, Nightshade, but he kinda lacked the manipulative side, mostly just swooping in, stealing the Macguffin, staying ahead of the heroes and putting up a fight, and taking his defeat in stride. Close, but no cigar.

[down] I guess I could try and make a case for him later. I'll wait a bit, though.

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Jan 25th 2021 at 4:39:59 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#36138: Jan 25th 2021 at 4:31:04 AM

Hmm Nightshade sounds interesting. I could hear it out depending on how it's played?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#36139: Jan 25th 2021 at 5:17:11 AM

Unapproved entry, this time in Wizards of Mickey

I do know that Italian Disney comics can get pretty wild, so maybe it’s worth a cursory glance

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#36140: Jan 25th 2021 at 5:27:21 AM

[up] Apparently, according to the page for it, there's two Phantom Blots: The familiar cloaked one, and a more inky blob one ala Epic Mickey.

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#36142: Jan 25th 2021 at 6:14:40 AM

Thinking it over, I guess I could give Nightshade a try.

What's the Work?

Again, Skylanders, toys, successful, Trap Team, criminals, blah blah blah, you get the gist.

This time, I'm focusing on one of the DLC missions, the Midnight Museum. After the Cloudbreak Prison was blown up, it opened a rift to two whole new worlds, one of which was the aforementioned Midnight Museum, a sort of maximum security warehouse for dangerous artifacts. One of them is the Dark Eye of Unvisibility, which lets the user be, well, unseeable. And as it turns out, an infamous thief wants it for himself.

Meet Nightshade.

Who's Nightshade?

A follower of The Darkness and an expert thief who steals for fun, planning to use the Eye to steal basically everything in Skylands.

What's he Do?

So when the Skylander and your ally Buzz arrive at the Museum, they assume that they beat Nightshade to the location, and start trying to locate the Eye. After solving the Museum's puzzles and security, they eventually locate the Eye, with Buzz assuming that they got there before Nightshade. Cue the theif appearing out of nowhere and taking the eye for himself, making an escape through the window. The way it's portrayed seems to imply that he let the Skylanders overtake security and slipped in unnoticed.

Either way, he makes a run for it throughout the rest of the level, staying ahead of the Skylanders and overcoming the security and leaving the heroes to deal with it. Eventually, he's cornered, and decides to fight them himself, using a combination of the security by staying out of reach via pillars, and his own powers of shadow clones and darkness beams to bamboozle and trick the Skylander.

Eventually, he's defeated, and when trapped, takes his capture extremely well, calmly admitting that he couldn't escape capture forever, and welcomes his new Heel–Face Turn.

Is he Magnificent?

I'd say that he's charming enough, being an Affably Evil thief who treats the Skylanders with respect and dignity, never really coming off as smug or condescending, maybe boastful at worst. Him accepting his fate better than most villains do certainly helps

As for trickery, while I initially though he didn't have much, he did slip into the Museum completely undetected and overcome its security, even using it to slow down the Heroes. His fight has more bamboozlement than the others as well, relying on shadow clones and the environment to fight.

Is he a Bastard?

Again, he's an expert theif who commits crimes for fun, and plans on stealing literally everything in Skylands. Oh yeah, he's also a follower of the friggin Darkness, which is a malevolent force of evil, and even if he doesn't share the destruction obsession most followers have, he still likes to boast about its power. Again, he's still affable enough to offset this.

Competition?

Again, not much to compare him to, save for Wolfgang, who I could easily argue that both are different enough to stand out. Helps that there aren't many cat burglars in the series.

Overall?

A bit of a simpler potential keep. What do you guys think?

Man, today's been pretty slow so far.

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Jan 25th 2021 at 7:32:05 AM

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#36146: Jan 25th 2021 at 8:21:39 AM

[tup]nightshade

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#36147: Jan 25th 2021 at 8:23:44 AM

[tup]Nightshade.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#36149: Jan 25th 2021 at 8:38:46 AM

I have two potential quotes for Ben Linus, one of which is from him and another is about him.

From him:

Wow, you guys have some real trust issues, don't you? Guess it makes sense she didn't tell you. I mean, with the two of you fighting all the time. Of course, if I was one of them - these people that you seem to think are your enemies - what would I do? Well, there'd be no balloon, so I'd draw a map to a real secluded place like a cave or some underbrush - good place for a trap - an ambush. And when your friends got there a bunch of my people would be waiting for them. Then they'd use them to trade for me. I guess it's a good thing I'm not one of them, huh? (Beat) You guys got any milk?

About him, from his daughter Alex:

That's what my father does - he manipulates people. He makes you think it's your idea but it's his.

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#36150: Jan 25th 2021 at 10:27:03 AM

It's been quite a bit of time since I posted the EP. Am I good to make a writeup now?


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