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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#34851: Jan 6th 2021 at 8:27:28 AM

Never seen in Castle in the Sky, it's probably on HBO Max, so I'll check it out. [tup] Dola.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34852: Jan 6th 2021 at 8:32:18 AM

[tup] Dola and the Prince.

So, I'm new to this thread, but just sort of been lurking. Unlike the CM or HS thread, I didn't have as much of an understanding of this trope nor candidates to bring up.

Anyways, I'm wondering if Inanna of Carmilla the Series has been brought up on here. I bring this up because I found this on the YMMV page.

Now that I've been looking at this thread, I figured I could do an EP on her, since this only covers season two, and there are instances where she may come off as too much of a bastard.

I'll get to the EP shortly if no one minds.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#34853: Jan 6th 2021 at 8:49:43 AM

[up] Welcome to the thread, Beast. Hope you enjoy your stay.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#34854: Jan 6th 2021 at 8:49:56 AM

It sounds like that whoever wrote that thinks there's some crossover with Love to Hate. MB's can definitely cross the line into that, they cannot straddle the line into Hate Sink though, and maybe this character does. I have not seen the show, so if nothing else I think she'd be worth an EP.

edit: [down] That's a great quote.

Edited by jjjj2 on Jan 6th 2021 at 12:36:05 PM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#34855: Jan 6th 2021 at 9:01:41 AM

surprisedFound this on The Demon's Lexicon

He is introduced as a liar from the beginning, yet manages to repeatedly surprise everyone with how nearly he pulls the wool over their eyes.

Hmm. Series sounds interesting. I can read it and possibly ep. Don't think I have a demon mb yet (I have vampire, werewolf and fey though)

How about a quote from Oliver?

"He swayed a nation to kill its king, once. He persuades. He influences. Perhaps he doesn't even intend to do so, but it's in his nature. And while you are more powerful than he by far, once he has your trust, there is no saying what he might be able to accomplish, through you."
Myrnin to Amelie on Oliver, Bitter Blood''

Edited by miraculous on Jan 6th 2021 at 9:15:38 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#34856: Jan 6th 2021 at 9:41:25 AM

Yes to Dola and the Oliver quote

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#34857: Jan 6th 2021 at 9:45:35 AM

So I've finished Sackboy: a Huge Adventure (Loved it), and thankfully, aside from a few dickish taunts and some breif moments of annoyance, Vex is still good for the trope. Hell, the final level is him constantly subverting the level design, luring Sackboy with collectibles and keeping Dreamer Orbs out of reach.

[down] ooo, a Futurama keep! Sure to him.

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Jan 6th 2021 at 10:05:38 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#34858: Jan 6th 2021 at 9:51:43 AM

For my first EP of the year I got a character that I think may be a technical keeper.

What’s the Work?

Futurama is a famous animated tv series that follows the crew of Planet Express shipping company in their misadventures in the 31st century. The main characters are Philip J. Fry, Turanga Leela, and Bender Bending Rodriguez The specific episode is “Less than a Hero” where Fry and Leela discover that a special “Miracle Cream” gives them superpowers and become superheroes along with Bender. My candidate is the antagonist of the episode the Zookeeper.

Who is the Zookeeper and what does he do?

The Zookeeper is a supervillain who commits crimes with a crew of trained animals and plans to steal the Quantum Gemerald from the Museum of Natural History. Arriving at the museum the Zookeeper reacts to the heroes by blowing on an animal whistle that causes all of the animals in the displays to attack the patrons in the museum, distracting everyone long enough for the Zookeeper to grab the Gemerald with the help of his pet snake “fingers.” When Fry and Leela corner him at the top of the stairs he drops the Gemerald, making Fry jump off to catch it which further distracts the others who rush to catch Fry, allowing the Zookeeper to escape.

Later Leela reveals to her parents that she is a superhero and her dad blabs about it, leading to a parrot telling the Zookeeper. He then kidnaps her parents and calls the heroes, telling them to steal the Gemerald for him or he will feed them to piranhas that he’s outfitted with mechanical legs. The heroes steal the Gemerald and hand it over to the Zookeeper who releases Leela’s parents before escaping.

Is he Magnificent?

Kind of, he’s not a ridiculously interesting character but he is quite smart and is one of the few episodic villains to completely win (if not the only one). He’s also pretty Faux Affably Evil cracking jokes at the heroes and seems to truly care for his own animals. I suppose his biggest issue is a lack of prominence (he appears almost exactly halfway through the episode) and whether or not he’s really smart enough which I think he may just make it.

Bastard? Too Much?

He’s a robber and an attempted murderer, not much else to say other than his pet elephant ate someone as part of a joke.

Conclusion?

I’ll leave it to you guys.

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#34861: Jan 6th 2021 at 10:05:29 AM

[tup]Zookeeper.

Don't think I've seen that episode yet. Might catch it.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#34862: Jan 6th 2021 at 10:11:29 AM

Hell yes to the Zookeeper.

So that's three for Matt Groening. I wonder if Disenchantment has any? Though, given the more sadistic nature of the show with it being on par with Drawn Together, I doubt it.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#34865: Jan 6th 2021 at 10:19:18 AM

Yes to the Zookeeper.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#34866: Jan 6th 2021 at 10:24:19 AM

Disenchantment may end up having an MB or CM partially due to it actually having an overarching plot instead of being just episodic which allows for more character consistency and longer running storylines.

Edited by papyru30 on Jan 6th 2021 at 11:25:19 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#34867: Jan 6th 2021 at 10:33:33 AM

[tup]Zookeeper, seems like a textbook example of a technical keeper.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34868: Jan 6th 2021 at 11:31:20 AM

Alright, first Magnificent Bastard EP. Here goes nothing.

What is the Work ?

Carmilla the Series is a web series from 2014 to 2016, which got a follow up film in 2017, and a novelization of the first season in 2019. It is loosely based on the famous novella of the same name, but it gained a cult following that is still strong to this day. Arguably, the series eclipsed the novel it was based on.

Laura Hollis is a student at Silas University with dreams of being a reporter and a bit of a hero complex, sets out to solve the mysteries of Silas. Laura's roommate goes missing, and is replaced by the mysterious and cynical Carmilla Karnstien. Laura, wanting to get to the bottom of the mysteries of Silas, teams up with her friends, forming their own little Scoobies, quickly learning of Carmilla's connections to the disappearaqnces, and what everyone already predicted; that Carmilla is a vampire. I discussed the series quite a bit on the CM thread, and looking back I think there are two characters that fit this trope better; Innana, and Carmilla's sister Mattie.

Who is Inanna ? What does she do ?

While her true identity, and motivations are not revealed until the third season, but she is in fact Inanna, a goddess of Summarian mythology, portrayed her as a Fallen God, with an entitlement complex. The reasons for her fall was when she tried to open the gates of Hell and resurrect her deceased husband Hastur. As punishment she is sent down to earth, ostensibly to live a mortal life, although she somehow became a vampire and has since lead a cult with the purpose of furthering her original goal.

Centuries ago, she met a girl named Mircalla Karnstien, who was murdered (it's unclear if Inanna had anything to do with this) and turned her into a vampire, taking the role of her adoptive mother. For centuries she used Karnstien as a lure for similar girls for her cult to sacrifice to an Eldritch Abomination. When Mircalla learned the truth of what she was doing to these girls, and tried to run away with her lover Elle, her mother punished Mircalla by revealing her vampirsm. In turn Elle betrays Mircalla, is subsequently sacrificed, and Inanna buries Carmilla alive in a coffin full of blood. Mircalla, eventually going by Carmilla, escaped her imprisonment into the present day before ending up in her mothers clutches.

In the present day, Inanna serves as the Dean of Silas, and the Big Bad of the first season, and gets annoyed by Laura's attempts to investigate her. After some of her past is uncovered, and Laura falls in love with Carmilla, Inanna briefly possesses Laura, and says that Carmilla can keep her if she turns a blind eye to the plans to sacrifice Laura's friend LaFontaine. She also seemingly kills the Soul Jar of JP, a student who also investigated Silas years ago and now exists as an Artificial Intelligence. Come the season finale, the Dean is defeated by falling to the pit that Lopphi (the Eldritch Abomination) sleeps in, and is devoured.

...then comes the second season, and we learn that her spirit still lingers and has attached itself to Laura's unwitting friend Lola Perry. While the conflict of the season is Carmilla, and Laura, vs the new Big Bad Vordenberg, all three of them are Unwitting Pawns to Inanna, as she has Perry kill students at the start of the season, setting said conflict off. While Vordenberg gets into power and starts an dictatorship, Inanna - through Perry - plays Laura's team against Vordenberg, eventually having Laura kill Vordenberg after the latter wipes out his council, leaving an empty seat of power for Inanna to take over. Before his own death, Vordenberg has Laura's friend Danny killed, and "Perry" gets her grieving friend Kirsch to bring her Danny's body, resurrected her as a vampire and revealing she was behind everything.

In season three, she takes over Silas, and enslaves the students to continuing to dig into the gates of Hell as per her original goal, with Carmilla, Laura and LaFontaine as the only ones who can oppose her. Other than her usual villain schdict, she kills one of Laura's favorite teachers, and eslaves JP to be a personal power source. We then learn the full of her backstory, and how she's in a Cain and Abel situation with her sister, the death goddess Ereshkigal, who is using Inanna's former adoptive daughter Mattie as a proxy against her sister, and is palying a long con against Inanna.

During the final showdown with Inanna, the goddess despairs over the fact she can't resurrect Hastur, and prepares to let Hell consume the world out of spite...only for Laura (whose heart was ripped out by Inanna) to defeat her through empathy. Now defeated, Inanna's spirit leaves with dignity, and gives a final Pet the Dog moment by turning Carmilla human and advising Carmilla not to let grief get the better of her as Inanna herself has. Mattie subsequently resurrects Laura on Ereshkigal's behalf.

Is she Magnificent ?

She has that up there, being portrayed as a darkly charismatic figure for much of the series, and is a Love to Hate antagonist throughout. Even as Carmilla and Mattie's abuser, a murderer and everything else, she is a generally entertaining antagonist, and the novelization of the first season has Laura describing her as someone to be feared and respected. Like, yeah we want to see her defeated and want Carmilla to be free from her, but she has this sort of magnetism about her just about every time we hear her talk.

She's clever, magnetic, Faux Affably Evil and has a rather warped idea of love (she was planning to Soul Stone sacrifice Carmilla to open the last gate, implying that she has some form of love towards her). She becomes The Chessmaster in season two, she has a pretty epic reveal to show that she was playing everyone like chess pieces, both the protagonists and antagonists, with no one the wiser until the very end of the season. The end result was leaving a power vacuum for her to take over.

While we don't find out until the last few chapters of the series, we know find out she has an ostensibly sympathetic goal in ressurecting her husband, even if she becomes a monster while trying to carry out said goal; and she accepts her final defeat rather gracefully, grants Carmilla a human life, and advises her not to become what she herself has become.

My concern here is if she is too much of a Bitch for this trope. Which leads us too...

Is she a Bitch ?

She is an abuser, mass murderer, cult leader, tries to set up Hell on Earth, and has high level of entitlement. Really, the only think that kept her from potentially being a CM in the end is the revelations of her true goal and motives. To be fair, they do believably humanize her, but they wait so long to show her as a sympathetic character that it kind of comes out of left field.

Everything beforehand plays her off as a callous, narcissist, who kicks puppies like a hackie sack; when she does something personally cruel, it's cruel. Like, she buries Carmilla alive, after having her lover betray her, she tortures JP, rips out Laura's heart, kills a helluva lot of people in season two, and aside from trying to open the Gates of Hell, was willing to let it consume the world. All to bring Hastur back.

I think that should about cover everything (again, first EP on this thread). And as I said, there is one other character I plan to bring up; Carmilla's sister Mattie. But for now I'll leave Inanna's vote to you guys.

Edited by Beast on Jan 6th 2021 at 11:41:31 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#34869: Jan 6th 2021 at 11:45:04 AM

Yes to Inanna. Good first EP on this thread.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#34871: Jan 6th 2021 at 12:26:31 PM

Hmm I'm leaning [tdown] on Inanna. I do feel she might be too much of a bitch, but I'm also reading this on her trope page:

Villainous Breakdown: Has a SPECTACULAR one in the penultimate episode of season 3 when her years of planning ultimately come to nothing due to her own selfish actions

What say you to that?

Edited by jjjj2 on Jan 6th 2021 at 3:26:53 PM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34872: Jan 6th 2021 at 12:37:05 PM

It's basically her having an emotional breakdown. It's in the first three minutes here.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#34873: Jan 6th 2021 at 12:38:49 PM

[tup] Zookeeper

Gotta think on Inanna

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34875: Jan 6th 2021 at 12:45:15 PM

[up] Yes, after her final death, when Laura talks her down and starts to empathize with her. It's within the same link.

Edited by Beast on Jan 6th 2021 at 12:45:49 PM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."

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