During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
The prince.
A bit late to the whole "Nutty MB" conversation, but Rex Dangervest definitely has a few screws loose.
Oh, and I found an unapproved wick for the trope over on Diabolik's character page, regarding some dude.
General Fabio von Waller
Altea's uncle, and possibly the most cunning character in the series. Best known as "Altea's Fox Uncle".
Yes, its a Zero Context Example. Is anyone aware of this series to make a judgement?
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Jan 5th 2021 at 6:50:10 AM
Right, so I've made a few errors on Vex's writeup. They ain't dethroning, but they're still embarrassing.
- Magnificent Bastard: Vex initially comes off as a goofy scoundrel until his true colors are revealed. Planning to use a machine to throw Craftworld into chaos, Vex kidnaps the residents of Loom and has them work on his machine, while purposely letting Sackboy escape. After seemingly dropping his plans continuously and fighting in an underwhelming manner, Vex eventually reveals to Sackboy that he dropped them on purpose so that he can get them for him, stealing them all from him and engaging him in a much more intense battle. Even after seemingly been defeated, it's revealed that Vex escaped and activated the Topsy-Turver already, planning to replace the Tree of Imagination with it to become a god. Nearly winning in the end, Vex proves to be the craftiest foe Sackboy's faced yet.
So first off, he only drops his plans once, near the beginning of the game. The plan's still fundamentally the same, just with less scrolls.
Second off, I forgot to properly mention the Macguffins.
And third, I think I was over-exaggerating Vex's Not-So-Harmless Villain schtick by calling him Goofy.
Overall, here's the new edited version:
- Magnificent Bastard: Vex initially comes off as a generic supervillain until his true colors are revealed. Planning to use a machine to throw Craftworld into chaos, Vex kidnaps the residents of Loom and has them work on his machine, while purposely letting Sackboy escape. After seemingly dropping his plans in the process and later fighting in an underwhelming manner when encountered, Vex eventually reveals to Sackboy that he dropped them on purpose so that he can get the Macguffins, which power his machine, for himself, stealing them all from him and engaging him in a much more intense battle. Even after seemingly been defeated, it's revealed that Vex escaped and activated the Topsy-Turver already, planning to replace the Tree of Imagination with it to become a god. Nearly winning in the end, Vex proves to be the craftiest foe Sackboy's faced yet.
BTW, actually playing the game (Love it), I can confirm that yes, the first two fights are, indeed, underwhelming.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Jan 5th 2021 at 7:52:21 AM
to the crown prince
Oh hey a while back some people were thinking about wether Altair from Assassin's Creed could count as a Magnificent Bastard. I'm not entirely sure about him given that Al Mualim was manipulating Altair into killing nine targets for him so he can wield the Apple for himself. Though in Altair's defense he starts getting suspicious of Al Mualim's motives to the point where he wasn't entirely surprised that Robert said Al Mualim was a templar. Either way I am willing to hear an argument for Altair qualifying as this.
Edited by G-Editor on Jan 5th 2021 at 5:55:05 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
- Princess Candle: Crown Prince Ruhl'ks initially appears to be a puppet controlled by his mother, the wicked Queen, but turns out to have masterminded the plot to destroy his political enemies. In order to secure his ascension to the throne, he has the Queen banish his half-sister, Princess Skw'ah, to the St. Ylieu convent to use her as bait for Lord Swey and Marquis Miph, who want to marry her to become king. Also sending the knight Flora to protect her and sending Yajenka as a spy, Ruhl'ks sits back while Flora and Yajenka defeat his enemies, eventually sending troops to aid them. Pretending to be a naive child to gain the trust of his mother, once he is sure Swey and Miph will be destroyed, he has her removed from power and sent to a villa he built to retire, successfully eliminating all threats to his coronation and ensuring his beloved sister will be safe.
Also, here is that quote:
Crown Prince Ruhl'ks: Didn't you know? Mother, my older sister isn't there anymore! Moreover, there is movement... among those who support her and want to kill me.
The Queen: Kill you?
Ruhl'ks: Rivals, like the Marquis Miph, or the House of Dozr'g. I knew... there would be opposition to my crowning. They nicely took the bait I threw at them.
The Queen: Is that why... you sent Skw'ah to the convent?
Ruhl'ks: Do you know about fishing, mother? It's better... when the bait is alive.
The Queen: Ho ho ho! You have the makings of a king, my son!
Ruhl'ks: Indeed. Then... now that my coronation is official... you are going to step down from power, mother. Go on! Take her!
A late 'Yes' to Shakespeare, and a 'Yes' to Myrnin and the Prince!
Oklie doklie, neighbors, since I'm on a bit of an anime kick, here's one I'm quite shocked has yet to be discussed yet...
What's the work?
Castle in the Sky is a classic anime film created from the wonderfully odd mind of Hayao Miyazaki and produced by Studio Ghibli, telling the story of a young girl, her necklace that leads to an ancient civilization, the boy trying to assist and protect her, and the multiple parties out to use them for their own purposes.
Functioning as perhaps my favorite Miyazaki/Ghibli film, I figure it only proper that I discuss one of most awesome characters to come from them as well...
Who is Captain Dola? What makes her a candidate?
Captain Dola is a bombastic elderly pirate with a gruff wit and a crew seemingly comprised of entirely her husband and their many sons. A skilled pirate who is known and feared throughout the land as a successful thief, Dola uses her airship the Tiger Moth and its smaller-scale personal aircrafts to swoop in, pull off robberies, and skirt away into the night sky, never afraid to turn tail and cut her losses if necessary, as the woman herself says' "He who turns and runs away, lives to steal another day!"
Opening the film up attacking a government airship in the quest to find an ancient Laputa necklace, which legend tells of being capable of finding the lost, floating city of Laputa—and its immense amount of treasure—Dola and her crew waste no time in taking down government agents with the element of surprise and invading tactics, but ultimately lose the necklace temporarily when the young girl Sheeta dons it before falling off the airship.
Tracking down Sheeta to a valley village below, Dola disguises herself and her sons and sends them throughout the village to ask around and look for Sheeta until they ultimately find her, with Dola seeing through a distraction caused by townsfolk to spy a fleeing Sheeta and her new friend Pazu. Dola begins pursuing the two, quickly throwing a crowd of angry villagers off her back with a grenade threat and coming within inches of capturing Sheeta and Pazu, even while the military shows up and opens fire on them all.
When Sheeta and Pazu escape once more, Dola simply finds Pazu's home, kicks up her feet, and chows down on a hefty buffet, waiting out the boy until he inevitably returns to his home where Dola captures him and learns from him that Sheeta has been caught by the military and Colonel Muska. Preparing to invade Muska's nearby base to obtain the necklace, Dola allows Pazu to accompany her crew, noting under her breath he'll be a valuable asset for coercing Sheeta to hand over the necklace.
Staging an assault on Muska's base at the same time a rogue robot goes on the rampage, Dola takes advantage of the chaos and, working with Pazu, rescues Sheeta then skillfully escapes Muska's overwhelming firepower with smoke screens.
Though disappointed that Sheeta lost the necklace to Muska, Dola nonetheless sees potential for a new plan and takes on the two children as.members of her crew, using Sheeta's knowledge of the necklace to give a rough estimate to where Muska's airship the Goliath is heading before Dola uses her own calculations and knowledge of the skies to chart a course, intercept the Goliath, and allow it to lead them to Laputa.
Eventually finding Laputa with the kids' help, having spent their journey growing genuinely fond of the two, Dola and her crew unfortunately get caught in a hurricane while approaching Laputa which leads to them being captured by Muska's group on the floating city of Laputa...this doesn't last long, as Pazu manages to smuggle Dola a knife she uses to free her crew, but not before she gives Pazu a hefty hand cannon she had hidden in her pants, wishing him luck in tracking down the once more-captured Sheeta.
Though trying to wait for the kids as Laputa begins to crumble, Dola ultimately flies off of the falling apart-city with her family, but is almost instantly reunited with the kids as they too escape the falling city—leading to Dola giving Sheeta a big hug, consoling the girl from Muska shooting her pigtails off.....then revealing the utterly triumphant fact that, even in the hella limited time they had on the city? Dola and her crew absolutely made bank with treasure from Laputa, stuffing their clothes to the brim with diamonds, gold, and jewelry to ensure that their adventure wasn't for nothing.
Dola and her crew cheerfully part ways with Sheeta and Pazu, all getting exactly what they wanted from the journey and making friends along the way.
Is Dola magnificent?
Yep! Dola's a delightfully roguish pirate with the disposition of a stern grandma, and while she gets frustrated or annoyed, it's always with a charm of its own that's fun as hell to watch and she never once loses her cool beyond berating her (admittedly often incompetent) sons.
Between keeping pace with Muska to ultimately getting a bunch of treasure from the outing (though not as much as she would have liked, but eh she's a greedy pirate!), Dola stays lighthearted and collected throughout the flick, facing even capture with nary a care until Pazu assists her escape—which even then continues her own magnificence as she quickly repays him by giving him a weapon that proves hella useful in his eventual confrontation with Muska.
She's an utterly hilarious, immensely charming mentor-like character, and makes her mark as arguably the best character from the film.
Is Dola a bitch?
Even though by the second half she's pretty firmly a full-fledged good guy, Dola's still an absolute thieving pirate who spends a solid chunk of the film willing to threaten children to obtain the necklace, and maintains a gruff, very much Noble Demon style attitude about her throughout the story.
And of course, nothing about her is nearly evil enough especially up against Muska
Final Verdict?
I'd say a solid Keep and another for the "surprised it took this long to find" list.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Ruhl'ks and Dola.
Very surprised that Raoul Silva was not mentioned when it comes to insane M Bs.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"

the prince.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid