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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#34251: Dec 26th 2020 at 4:24:48 PM

[tup] to Hop Frog

Say since the tally for Darth Zannah is 8-2 the last time 43110 checked, I think that it’s now okay to do her write-up now if you haven’t done so Lighty

Edited by G-Editor on Dec 26th 2020 at 2:25:54 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34253: Dec 26th 2020 at 4:31:18 PM

Thanks, G. 43 Already told me, but I'll get it done now:

  • Darth Bane: Bane's apprentice, Darth Zannah, shows her manipulative acumen when still a girl named Rain who uses her wits to convince a spacer to take her aboard his ship before murdering those on board to join Bane on Onderon. becoming an adept apprentice, Zannah infiltrates numerous factions for Bane to manipulate them into conflict and remove the rivals of the Sith, in one such mission meeting a man who knows of the Sith and intends to become Zannah's apprentice, prompting her to lure him into conflict with Bane to either deal with the problem or leave her as the Master. When Bane is critically injured, Zannah destroys her own cousin Darovit's mind to make him appear as the true Sith Lord to the Jedi and secure Bane's survival so she may complete her own training. Enraged ten years on when Bane seems to betray his own teachings, Zannah engages him in a contest ending with a battle of wills that she is triumphant in, proving herself worthy of the title of Dark Lord of the Sith and continuing Bane's plans to see the fall of the Jedi and Republic.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#34254: Dec 26th 2020 at 4:38:43 PM

"becoming" should be capitalized.

Btw Riley can I have Ventress please? CMIIW but I think we've been waiting on her for a while now.

Edited by 43110 on Dec 26th 2020 at 7:40:11 AM

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#34256: Dec 26th 2020 at 4:58:23 PM

Yeah, 43. Sorry for the wait, I'll have her writeup posted really soon.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#34257: Dec 26th 2020 at 4:59:34 PM

No problem, just wanted to make sure you knew she had been approved.

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#34258: Dec 26th 2020 at 5:20:45 PM

So, is anyone aware of the works of one Alex Bale? If so, PM me for a discussion, I think I have a candidate.

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#34259: Dec 26th 2020 at 5:36:37 PM

  • Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Asajj Ventress was a Dathomirian Nightsister who was enslaved. She eventually came into the care of a Jedi who trained her until his death. Seeking vengeance for the Order's perceived abandonment of him, Ventress would come to be an elite assassin for Count Dooku. When betrayed by Dooku, Ventress returned to her home of Dathomir, allying with Mother Talzin and plotting against Dooku, becoming cold yet not without heroic traits. When her people were massacred on Dooku's orders, she found work as a bounty hunter, allying with Boba Fett on a cargo mission. Upon learning the target they were transporting was a tyrant's forced bride, Ventress saved the girl and kept her share of the payment with quick thinking. As a freelancer, Ventress cleverly saved the life of Obi-Wan Kenobi from Maul and his brother Savage. On Coruscant, Ventress would ally with fugitive Jedi Ahsoka Tano, aiding her and pointing out her mistreatment to her master. Later in life, Ventress would ally and fall for the Jedi Quinlan Vos, training him in the Dark Side and saving him when he was captured, ultimately giving her life to save Quinlan and saving the Jedi Order from corruption.

How's it look?

Edited by Riley1sCool on Dec 26th 2020 at 6:32:02 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#34261: Dec 26th 2020 at 5:57:25 PM

I was looking through some of the locked pages when I found this unapproved wick on Horny Devils. It refers to George W. Bush from The Salvation War:

  • The Salvation War: Subverted in Armageddon??? chapter 76, where it's long since been discovered that succubi just operate using telepathy and pheromones...leaving them perfectly vulnerable once countermeasures such as air filtration against the pheromones are used. Instead of getting her way, the succubus Lugasharmanaska is unpleasantly surprised when President George W. Bush (yes, that George W. Bush) actually uses the infamous "with us or against us" line on her, revealing that "we" knew all along about her attempts to play Earth against Hell and vice versa, and only let her do so as long as it suited "them"...before separately showing the queen of the succubi that he's as immune to her, too. (Perhaps hilariously, this scene comes close to painting him as a Magnificent Bastard who'd pretended to be a dunce for quite some time. Then again, he's got quite the stacked deck in his favor.) Armageddon manages the rather impressive feat of making Clinton, Bush, and Obama into generally intelligent, sympathetic characters who tend to do the right thing. Not impressive because it's hard, just impressive because so few people would be willing to try.

I've never read The Salvation War, so I wouldn't know if Bush counted in that series. Considering the... reputation the real life man has, is there anyone in this thread familiar with the series who can weigh in on him?

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#34262: Dec 26th 2020 at 6:11:08 PM

Honestly, as far as Ventress goes.....she is an engaging character, but.....I don't really think she fits the trope.

As a straight-up villain, she is just too much of a pawn at first and out of her depth later. There are also some nasty Kick the Dog moments, like when she forces Savage to murder his own brother.

And afterwards I think she....is just too heroic. Especially after she returns to the Jedi Order, she pulled a straight-up Heel–Face Turn for this to happen.

But it seems like it's settled already.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34263: Dec 26th 2020 at 6:16:30 PM

I think the argument is that Ventress grows so heavily in Dark Disciple from her rougher ends, and how well she does when she breaks free from Dooku.

My personal opinion is someone who starts out with so many crimes (and honestly, I think Feral's death is way more on Talzin than Ventress)...even if they HFT...it still results in them being enough of a bastard if it's dealt with and Ventress's recurring struggle with the darkness plays a huge part of her character; she's redeemed, but it's never quite expunged.

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#34264: Dec 26th 2020 at 6:16:58 PM

I'd dispute the idea that she's not bastard enough upon changing... in Dark Disciple she teaches Vos the Dark Side, including forcing him to destroy the last Sleeper, still serves as a bounty hunter, and kills an innocent guard just to proceed at one point. Even as an Anti-Hero she's plenty selfish and willing to do ruthless things to get what she wants.

I welcome your counterargument but I have to say I disagree with it.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Dec 26th 2020 at 6:17:17 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34265: Dec 26th 2020 at 6:28:21 PM

There's one SW MB also coming up that I'm going to imagine is gonna be completely uncontroversial, but I've gotta do some rereads.

TBH, my white whale will remain Dooku. He has some incredible moments in the Clone Wars comics.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#34266: Dec 26th 2020 at 6:29:49 PM

I must admit I didn't really have the details of "Dark Disciple" present in my mind. Her inclusion sounds a lot more comprehensive now. Thx.

EDIT: Dooku certainly is big enough for an EP. I can easily see him count in the same way the Grand Inquisitor qualifies.

Edited by Forenperser on Dec 26th 2020 at 3:31:05 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#34267: Dec 26th 2020 at 6:30:30 PM

Foren is more than welcome to say his piece but most of us have voted and you did a very thorough EP Riley. I think she’s good to stay.

Edit: and it looks like he’s coming around anyways haha. Cool!

Edited by 43110 on Dec 26th 2020 at 9:31:00 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#34268: Dec 26th 2020 at 6:30:38 PM

Would ventress count in legends too ?

She does apparently outdo Durge (he doesn't exist in Canon. As cad bane took his role and was way more more intelligent) and get away from what I've heard.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#34269: Dec 26th 2020 at 6:32:13 PM

The biggest problem with Dooku is his entire existence amounts to being a pawn of Palpatine, and he more than fulfills that purpose. That ultimately kills his magnificence in my mind. Otherwise I'd think he'd be an easy keeper.

Edited by jjjj2 on Dec 26th 2020 at 9:32:43 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34270: Dec 26th 2020 at 6:36:18 PM

I'm gonna say no to Legends Ventress. She is, unlike canon, a selfish and hysterical, sadistic monster who's never worthy of the sympathy she gets. She lacks a lot of manipulation and she's just spite and cruelty incarnate.

I COULD try for Dooku on the strength of the EU, but yes, as J says? He is a pawn of Palpatine, which is THE biggest bar. He and Warmaster Tsavong Lah are probably my two biggest "How I wish"

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#34271: Dec 26th 2020 at 6:36:43 PM

Think lighty meant that he was one that he can't ep due to his defeat (hence the white whale. One that got away.). I think ?

Edit: [up]Ah okay. Sounds interesting. Dooku actually got the reverse where he's way more of a dick in Canon then legends.

Edited by miraculous on Dec 26th 2020 at 6:37:55 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34272: Dec 26th 2020 at 6:37:24 PM

Yeah, exactly.

The other issue is there's kinda a Depending on the Writer since Legends!Dooku could be really, really racist.

Well...him and Vader. Both are ones I would genuinely love to see up, but..Tsavong Lah is someone I'd like to talk about with anyone who knows New Jedi Order because he really got the short end of the stick from some writers. Like Nom Anor but without the stronger finish

Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 26th 2020 at 6:39:40 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#34273: Dec 26th 2020 at 6:39:27 PM

Yeah there was that great tidbit in the Revenge of the Sith novel, he was a human-supremacist. Of course in that novel his end is far more undignified than it is in the film, but legends continuity is a bit screwy like that.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#34274: Dec 26th 2020 at 6:39:58 PM

Ah yes I read the revenge of the Sith novelisation. Lol. He's a full on human supermascit their.

Which was really weird as I read that after clone wars and wants aware of it being a different Canon so was wondering why he was so cool with aliens in the show.

Edit: [nja][up]

Edited by miraculous on Dec 26th 2020 at 6:40:49 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34275: Dec 26th 2020 at 6:41:19 PM

It's kinda weird since that little tidbit is nowhere else in his character and he fully embraces working with aliens...

Honestly, his whole manipulation in Quinlan Vos's arc is why I want to see him up. There was some fantastic writing there.


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