During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
May Day.
Definite
to May Day! Fully in support of her inclusion.
The movie’s fun even if it’s not exactly...good.
Would totally be on board for Jaws counting too if the bad stuff happening to him didn’t make him look too incompetent.
Be also for including Octopussy if she wasn’t played by Kamal throughout the entire film. Also, she’s probably too heroic too.
She’ll go between Scaramanga and Trevelyan I take it? As is, May Day’s currently the only female keeper besides Elektra.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Dec 26th 2020 at 10:27:29 AM
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Hey future I remember you mentioning wanting to do a Ghost EP, out of curiosity since it's been a while since I've seen it is Bill Foster bastardy enough or not?
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Dec 26th 2020 at 10:30:30 AM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"Here's May's write up. With this, we may be tapped out as far as movie keepers go but there are a few characters I'm interested in looking at.
- A View to a Kill: May Day is Max Zorin's lover and main henchman who proves to be one of the most dangerous henchmen Bond has encountered. Sneaking into a restaurant and using a fake prop to kill a French detective meeting with Bond, May then escapes the pursuing agent by parachuting off of the Eiffel Tower. May later uses a momentary distraction to sneak into Agent Tibbett’s car and murder him, using the car to lead Bond into a trap that nearly kills him. May later ambushes General Gogol, forcing him to leave Zorin alone. May then lures an investor who backed out of Zorin's plan to his death. May murders CIA agent Chuck Lee, hiding his body so Bond will be led into a trap Zorin has set. When Zorin betrays her and kills her friends, May turns on Zorin and sacrifices herself to sabotage his plans, asking Bond to take revenge for her and spending her last moments glaring at her treacherous former lover.
@Jackie, I think the clan is called Krum not Klum like in your write up.
No no, that's Sonny Burch who is a complete and utter failure. I mean Laurence Fishburne's character.
Fair enough then.
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Dec 26th 2020 at 11:17:37 AM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"Yeah, but it's still mostly Ava's plan and she is doing most of the work. Foster is just kind of there a lot of the time from my memory, and I really can't see him counting.
Edited by Bullman on Dec 26th 2020 at 1:16:50 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadOh my mistake. You meant LAURENCE FISHBURNE. The other was Sonny Burch.
I kind of forget Burch and her share the role of Big Bad. He’s far less interesting.
As Bull says though, she’s the one making the plan and doing most of everything too.
That said, I might do her and Foster as a duo. We’ll see what happens.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Dec 26th 2020 at 11:18:49 AM
Ah, that's fair enough. Whoops wrong Laurence I used there.
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Dec 26th 2020 at 11:17:58 AM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"A while back someone proposed Montressor the snobby murderer from The Cask of Amontillado. While that fell through I think I've found another character from the mind of Edgar Allan Poe whose earned a place. And he's not an evil aristocrat-quite the opposite in fact.
Hop Frog
Who Is he?
Hop Frog is the title character and protagonist of Poe's 1849 short story, set in a medieval court. Hop Frog is a dwarf who, along with his equally small lover Trippetta, were taken to new lives as Jesters for the King and his joke-loving ministers. Despite Hop-Frog's stature, his leg muscles are quite powerful and well-built, making him surprisingly adept at climbing and acrobatics.
Of course Hop Frog and Trippeta's life is not a happy one, as the King and his councillors are all complete pricks whose idea of "merriment" is bullying and humiliating Hop-Frog. At the start of the story they make the poor Jester drink gallons of wine, which addles his mind quite fierce, and then laugh at the Jester's drunken daze. When Trippetta tries to beg the King to stop the abuse, the King smacks her, and Hop-Frog's teeth grind with fury. You probably know where this is going, don't you?
Hop-Frog goes back to his Doormat disposition and the King asks him for advice on a masquerade ball that night(he should know everything about comedy acts, right?) The dwarf claims that he got the idea the moment the good king smacked his girlfriend and threw wine in her face. Yeah guys, clearly he knows it's all in good fun right?
Hop-Frog goes on to explain that the act is the "Eight Chained Orangotangs" and that it involves eight people dressed as escaped apes bursting into the crowded party to give the assembled guests a good scare. The King and his court are delighted by the idea. Oh Gosh that Hop-Frog, such a good friend! I can't see at all how he'd have an ulterior motive! That night, they all prepare for the show under Hop-Frog's direction. Dressing in suits covered in Tar and fur, connected by a long chain to give the illusion of escapees from a cage. As organizer of this little charade, Hop-Frog has the ballroom prepared for the occasion, which include convincing the King to let him carry the keys to the locked ballroom.
At midnight, 8 large orangutangs break into the crowded ball and cause quite a ruckus. And who should come to the rescue but the master Jester himself, who has slipped the orangutangs' chain to the large chandelier dangling above. He runs forth with a torch. "Leave them to me!" he cries,"Leave them to me. I fancy I know them. If I get a good look at them, I can soon tell who they are."
With that he proceeds to leap up the chain and draws the "orangutangs" into one huddled bunch. The Jester gives a whistle, and the chain(implied to be handled by Trippetta) hoists him and his costumed captives to the ceiling.
Hop-Frog declares he knows who the costumed king and his court are...and proceeds light the helpless phony apes ablaze with the torch, as the guests below watch in horror. As the royal bonfire rages, Hop-Frog ascends the chandelier and makes his dramatic exit speech:
"I now see distinctly...what manner of people these maskers are. They are a great king and his seven privy councillors-a king who does not scruple to strike a defenceless girl and his seven councillors who abet him in the outrage. As for myself, I am simply Hop-Frog, the Jester-and this is my last jest."
By now, the king and his councillors have been reduced to a mass of charred flesh and bone, mangled together in a gruesome swinging display piece. Hop-Frog, athlete he is, proceeds to clamber up the chain to the skylight and disappear. The story ends with the message that he and Trippetta fled the kingdom and were never seen again.
Clever?
Hop-Frog is a classic tale of people being more than they seem. You wouldn't believe an abused, lowly servant to a tyrant would be capable of pulling off such a wicked, daring plan of escape and revenge, but Hop-Frog did just that. He used his status as a silly court clown to let the royal court think they're in control, and set up this grand gag to take fiery vengeance on them in front of all their subjects while giving himself and his lover freedom. Of course you could argue the king and his councillors are idiots for not catching on that their jester would want payback for the way they treated him and Trippetta, but it's unlikely anyone, least of all a high class twit, would suspect this one court fool of being so devious. He's also quite an athlete for a little guy, as I mentioned earlier.
Is He a Bastard?
Normally, burning alive a helpless group of people at a party would be an absolutely monstrous thing, but this is somewhat undercut by the King's piss-poor treatment of Hop-Frog. He treated him and Trippetta more like pets than people, who he can toy with and mistreat at his leisure. It's completely understandable Hop-Frog wants justice, even if you think his method is a tad excessive.
Competition?
He's definitely a cut above the usual Villain Protagonist in Poe's stories. While most were just unstable assholes who killed helpless people, Hop-Frog is the inverse. He's a poor, disadvantaged individual who ultimately outsmarted and overcame the privileged douchebags who put him through hell. All by playing on their love of pranks and jokes. This time Hop-Frog and Trippetta were the only ones laughing.
Conclusion?
I'd say the Jester's earned his place.
to Hop-Frog.
That story was actually based on true events: more specifically, the Bal des Ardents
.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Dec 26th 2020 at 2:03:44 AM
I thought I had a potential candidate, but I now I can't remember who. I'll try to think of it later. Also, Legacy of Kain needs some cleaning, specifically the first paragraph on the main page:
An Action-Adventure video-game series by Silicon Knights and Crystal Dynamics, The Legacy of Kain is set in the dark, gothic world of Nosgoth and its unique vampires. The series follows badass Anti Heroes, Kain and Raziel. Kain is a Magnificent Sociopathic Hero interested in conquering Nosgoth with a vampire army. Raziel is Kain's right-hand vampire whom he has killed and turned into a wraith, and sets about trying to kill Kain to avenge himself. It turns out Raziel has the power to Screw Destiny, and from there we get into time travel. Thus, from Soul Reaver on, all the main characters, including Kain, take turns playing Gambit Roulette with Raziel as the ball, hoping to trick him into changing history to make things better for them. Along the way, there's a Prophecy Twist or two, loads of Magnificent Bastards, faux-Shakespearan dialogue, and many chances for video game cruelty as you decide how to dispatch Mooks in the most fun and gruesome ways you can think of.
And this on these on the character sheets:
Moebius:
- The Chessmaster: Plays a very mean game of Xanatos Speed Chess against Kain's Magnificent Bastard as the series progresses. And he seemingly won, up until Kain survived losing the Heart of Darkness.
Janos Audron:
- Token Good Teammate: Between Nosgoth being a Crapsack World and the series running on Black-and-Gray Morality, Janos is probably the only character that is truly "good" through and through. He has no hidden agenda, he doesn't manipulate anyone, he has no selfish or self-serving motivation or goal, doesn't hold any grudges against humans for their actions, whenever he's on screen he's polite and affable, and he plays it straight when Raziel demands answers from him. It says something that in a series where most recurring characters are varying degrees of Magnificent Bastards, Janos is not.
Hash'ak'gik
- The Omniscient: Possibly, since he seems to exist outside the boundaries of the normal spacetime-continuum. He clearly knows a huge amount about time travel, and is able to manipulate Kain and Raziel to his own ends across centuries backwards and forwards. If he doesn't have some way of seeing through time, he's a king among Magnificent Bastards for pulling it all off in a linear timeframe.
A lot of these are misinterpreting the trope, especially playing up the "bastard" part. I've only ever played (in full) BO2 and Defiance, but I can easily say that Kain and Mortanius (at least from what I know of him) are the only characters who qualify as MB. Moebius is an overly self-righteous Smug Snake, Raziel is somewhat naïve, the Elder God is more manipulative than magnificent, and Vorador is a murderous hedonist. And Hash ... well, he's also an approved CM and an Omnicidal Maniac who hates both humanity and vampires, so apart from all the Draco in Leather Pants treatment he gets, he's too evil. Can't speak for the numerous other characters. Should those parts be rewritten or just deleted outright?
Edited by Stellarvore on Dec 26th 2020 at 4:10:41 AM
We have approved Kain and Mortanius, so any potholes that refer to them can stay, otherwise I think you should replace most instances with The Chessmaster or Manipulative Bastard.
That may very well be true (not sure I agree with that policy for approved CM and MB, but I don't run the wiki).
Edited by jjjj2 on Dec 26th 2020 at 5:48:07 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
I just figured it was like Complete Monster in that you can't have it pothole it anywhere other than as an MB entry, especially not outside the YMMV page.
Edited by Stellarvore on Dec 26th 2020 at 4:20:18 AM
