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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#3401: Aug 5th 2018 at 10:25:36 PM

Look what I got:

  • Lionel Luthor was the Smallville villain of note, and dominated the show for all seven seasons in which he appeared. Originally created to explain how Lex grew up to be such a bastard, the Magnificent You-Know-What became a power unto himself in the show, and for the first three seasons was a virtually untouchable threat who easily undercut any efforts by Lex or Clark to act against him. Jailed in Season 4, Lionel proved he was still capable of reaching out to touch anyone, anywhere, whenever he wanted, and after his release from prison and subsequent Heel Face Turn, remained the show’s most potent manipulator, undermining Lex’s attempts at becoming a threat in his own right, and getting the last laugh on his son when it was he, and not Lex, who was resurrected to serve as the show’s final villain in Season 10. In a show filled with mutants, aliens, and meteor freaks, Lionel Luthor was still the most dangerous man around, and no matter who he was sharing a space with, always managed to feel like the most powerful person in the room.
  • Freedom City: Mutants and Masterminds:August Tiberius Roman is the game’s Lex Luthor analogue, and the archenemy of the late Centurion, the setting’s greatest and most powerful superhero. Starting out as Freedom City’s most feared mafia don, Roman bought a pardon from the US government in 1943, and went onto frustrate the Centurion and the Freedom League for decades to come, first as the secret financial backer of the Crime League, and then as the city’s “Emperor of Crime.” By the 1950s and 60s, Roman controlled almost every mafioso, gangster, and street criminal in Freedom City, and was receiving a cut of near every crime committed in town, with only truly depraved organizations like Alister Usher’s falling outside his purview. This culminated in his outright buying Mayor Franklin Pierce in the 90s, and running the city in everything but name. When Pierce was brought down, he tried to take Roman with him, but the mafioso simply divested his underworld holdings and survived, broke, but free. Now retired, Roman has outlived all his allies and most of his enemies, including the Centurion, and supports himself in his old age by running the Circuit-Maximus, an illegal underground fight club featuring superhumans. No longer an active participant in most of the city’s criminal life, the elderly Roman is still a figure to be feared, and one that no hero or villain in their right mind aims to cross.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#3402: Aug 5th 2018 at 10:43:13 PM

Now, one more:

What's the Work?

Treasure Island is a classic adventure novel about a boy named Jim Hawkins who comes along the dying Billy Bones, a former pirate with a treasure map. And who's he get introduced to? Well, none other than the man himself....they hire him as a cook. A tavern keeper with his own agenda. I give you...Long. John. SILVER!

....original and muppet version.

Who is Long John Silver?

Once, he was the quartermaster of a famed pirate vessel, the only man the ferocious pirate Captain Flint ever feared. Silver is visceral, greedy, ruthless and an awesome dad. He runs a tavern with his beloved wife (of African descent, I should note), but when hired by Jim, he sees a chance to reclaim Flint's treasure. Not knowing that Silver is a pirate, Jim leaves it to Silver to hire the crew...and Silver picks out men loyal to him, and wins the rest over with his charisma and promises of riches. Over time, Silver steadily converts the crew, undermines the captain and murders the only two who refuse to join the mutiny. (not the Muppet version, obviously) Now, the way it goes here? Silver arrives at Treasure Island with the others and sets up his plots.

Now, a whole miniature war proceeds with the good guys and Silver, with Silver outplaying them at near every turn, tricking Jim and holding him hostage. In the Muppet version, he treats Jim to an amazing song about the life of a professional pirate. Unfortunately, when the treasure is discovered to be empty, the crew mutinies against Silver. Silver holds his own well enough, and in the Muppet Version, even sacrifices his freedom to rescue Jim, informing him "Because I like you, lad. Hope you don't think I was lying about that!"

And props to him? He manipulates them into letting him go after, and teams up with the heroes to take down the mutineering pirates, ending back up as a prisoner with the good guys...but at the last moment, he slips free, steals a fortune and slips off on a boat after a final talk with Jim. One of the heroes even whispers he somewhat hopes Silver makes it, as Long John Silver departs, a wealthy men. In the Muppet version, he's version to bail with the treasure back to the island, this being, weirdly, the only version in which he gets any comeuppance.

Is Silver charismatic? Charming? A good planner?

Oh god yes. Silver is roguishly charming and strangely paternal. He's a ruthless man, but he's compelling. He will win you over and he's been winning hearts on the screen and on print for ages. He bonds with Jim and it's utterly genuine. He's able to win others to his side by playing to their greed, but also his sheer charisma. He's a quartermaster and his captain feared him, for god's sake. And in Muppet Treasure Island? He's Tim Curry, and oh my god, does Curry play this to a T. He is charming, he is friendly, e is fun...he has an amazing song for Jim to join him, and when he tricks his crew into letting him free by vowing eternal damnation, he hams it up so hilariously awesome that it's just great. Nevermind his self-sacrifice for Jim.

Is he a bastard? Too much?

In both? Silver is an unrepentant pirate and a greedy rogue. He's a murderer in the book, and a cad in the Muppet film who betrays people at the blink of an eye and will kill if he needs to, takes Jim hostage and will do whatever it takes to get that gold. But even then? silver might be a villain, but he truly cares for Jim as his mentor. He loves his wife, and he may have affection for Flint, having named his parrot Captain Flint (maybe mockery admittedly), and he never does anything crazy evil. He's a fascinating bad guy because he's not pure evil. He's also rather devoid of some common prejudices of the time. He's not racist, and he's not particularly sexist. He trusts his wife as a business partner and it's pointed out she's of African descent with Silver never speaking a word against blacks in general, which for a nautical novel around this time was....something.

Conclusion?

Automatic yes for the lit version and the Muppet one. One of the classic examples in an adventure story, period.

Edited by Lightysnake on Aug 5th 2018 at 10:49:07 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#3403: Aug 5th 2018 at 10:45:44 PM

I remember on reading Treasure Island when I was doing my Kumon courses years ago. Yes to Silver. How about the Disney version one Lighty?

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#3404: Aug 5th 2018 at 10:47:41 PM

I heard someone wants to propose that one themselves, so I'll leave it to them...but if you do Silver right? He's going to keep. The Muppet version is different enough, IMO (And with an awesome song) to justify a second entry.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#3405: Aug 5th 2018 at 10:48:27 PM

[tup]Cypher, Wadsworth, Grimskull and long john silver

[tdown] to Toffee though. The fact we dont really know that much about him makes me hesitant to vote him up. I think he deserves a wait as while he'll defiently be back, I dont think he's quite here just yet but baring a weird character turn, I suspect he may indeed be a much more solid keep in time.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#3406: Aug 5th 2018 at 10:51:13 PM

[up][up] Ah... So long john silver from that Disney version could also been kept? Hmmmm might going to check the 2003 version out

Speaking of Toffee and Lego!Joker...i know that this guy would be a little bit impossible to qualify but I would love to propose Vanir from Konosuba for fun in the future and discussed his status btw.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#3407: Aug 5th 2018 at 10:51:33 PM

Ehhhh....TBH, Mir, I have to disagree. We know more about Toffee than we do about others on the list. He was a monster general who was defeated, and decided to recover his power. Not sure we need to know too much else.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#3408: Aug 5th 2018 at 10:52:28 PM

Yes to both Silvers... muppet keeper, fucking love it! Can't wait till we get the bunny one out of Woundwort to match!

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#3409: Aug 5th 2018 at 11:04:36 PM

I was too busy watching EVO to vote on stuff for the past few days, anyway [tup] to Toffee and Lighty's proposals, and abstaining from Joker.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3410: Aug 5th 2018 at 11:09:29 PM

Yes to both Silvers. The Disney one is really, really tough... to be honest, I think that may be one where the sympathetic side may overwhelm the "bastard" part too much. Even when he's still an antagonist, the utter worst Silver ever gets up to is burning down the heroes' house (which he pays back anyways) and taking some hostages. Even though the film tries to tease it numerous times, it's made explicit he'd never have it in him to kill Jim, and I think his heart of gold kind of offsets how efficient an operator he is at the end. He screws up his own scheme too much because he's constantly held back by his own remorse (like not shooting Jim when he has a perfect chance? And throwing away everything he's worked for years to save the kid in a span of... I don't know, ten seconds when he's faced with the Friend-or-Idol Decision?)

Disney!Silver's a great villain. Think he's too much of a softie to really become worthy of either "magnificent" or "bastard" in the end, though.

Edited by Scraggle on Aug 5th 2018 at 12:16:45 PM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#3411: Aug 5th 2018 at 11:32:03 PM

[up] Oof...Well I guess youre right.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#3412: Aug 5th 2018 at 11:34:23 PM

Alright from The Order of the Stick. Heres the examples from the ymmv page. Any keepes and cuts you guys see

  • Magnificent Bastard:
    • Lord Shojo. He Obfuscated Senility so that he could play the nobles off against each other and bypass the tedious problem of avoiding assassination squads. He did it so well that not only did he keep the entire city running smoothly for nearly half a century (which is a quite a feat when you've got Templar Paladins mixing with your duplicitous noble gentry), but after he was gone, despite the fact that the ex-inhabitants of Azure City nearly descended into civil war trying to take power for themselves and assign blame, his authority (in the form of his cat) is still unquestioned. He almost achieved Vetinari Job Securityalmost. In addition, when he died he chose to stay dead, which sent the "Haha! Suck it, losers..." message back to the world of the living.
    • The Oracle plans his resurrection spells in advance.
    • The three IFCC fiends play a longer game than anyone else on this list. For example, Deal with the Devil they offer V is so persuasive and tempting that V falls for it despite the existence of an alternative solution that didn't involve hellish dealing. They make use of it to great effect.
    • General Tarquin, who along with his confederates rules three desert empires from the shadows, playing them all against each other (and every group not aligned with their empires) with their patsies none the wiser. He is also Genre Savvy and thus is perfectly and explicitly aware of the costs and consequences of the role he has chosen to play in "the story" — he simply weighed the pros and cons, and saw that by his definition, he will "win" no matter what happens.
    • Xykon may be immature and unfocused, but he can be this. The best example is in Start of Darkness, when he manipulates Redcloak into murdering and reanimating his own brother (and thereby removing any hope of the goblins being free from him in the process), all to protect Xykon from an attack he was aware of and immune to anyway, and then delivers what may be the best “The Reason You Suck” Speech in webcomic history to explain that now he has guaranteed that Redcloak will loyally serve him forever, protect his phylactery, and perform any atrocious deed he commands. Because otherwise his sacrifice would be for nothing.
    • As of Strip #830, Redcloak solidified himself as this, by revealing that he's been manipulating Xykon for as long as he's been in "service" to him, revealed spectacularly with the following lines.
      Redcloak: See, the undead are tools. Powerful, dangerous tools. From the lowliest zombie to Xykon himself, the undead are just complex weapons that we make and aim at other people. All that differs is how direct or subtle our control of them is. [...] for our so-called master, more creative strategies are required.
      Tsukiko: You don't control Xykon, he controls you!
      Redcloak: Like I said: subtle.
    • Loki is revealed to be this, as not only did he scam Hel out of getting the souls of Dwarfs by making her agree to not get the honorable ones then having Thor lead them to be the most honorable civilization possible, it turns out Clerics serving Loki don't have to follow the honorable rules of their culture but still don't go to Hel because Loki's nature means they're being honorable by following him as his Clerics. In other words: Dwarfs want out of being honorable? They can turn to Loki and still stay out of Hel's grasp in such a way that benefits Loki.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#3413: Aug 5th 2018 at 11:37:16 PM

[tup] to both Silvers

Speaking of John Silver does the version from Black Sails qualify.

Speaking of Black Sails I found this on the YMMV page:

  • Magnificent Bastard: Both James Flint and Eleanor Guthrie. Flint managed to talk his way back to being Captain after a mutiny in a span of two days. Eleanor managed to rebuild her business empire after it was destroy by her father in the span of one night. Both are willing to betray and kill to achieve their ends: the stabilization of Nassau.
    • Lampshaded by Dufresne, who had taken over for Flint as Captain. When they're discussing the votes, Dufresne tells Flint he's forced to wonder exactly how much of the pivotal encounter Flint engineered specifically to reach this outcome. To wit: Flint had advised Dufresne to avoid taking a certain course, because it would take them through a common shipping lane, and the crew would press to take the first prize they saw. Dufresne plots the exact course Flint cautioned against, attempts to take a prize, and the whole thing goes pear-shaped. Dufresne wonders if any of them would have thought of taking the course if Flint hadn't warned against it in the first place.

Since you know alot about the show Lightysnake does James Flint and/or Eleanor qualify? (along with John Silver)

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#3414: Aug 5th 2018 at 11:51:50 PM

So were all of these approved? Found on the main YMMV Ace Attorney page.

Manfred von Karma, Big Bad of the first game.

Damon Gant in "Rise from the Ashes"

Luke Atmey in "The Stolen Turnabout".

Kristoph Gavin, Big Bad of the fourth game.

Phoenix himself, Big Good of the fourth game.

Phantom/Fulbright in Dual Destinies.

Roger Retinz/Mr. Reus in Spirit of Justice.

Quercus Alba in Investigations.

Simon Keyes in Gyakuten Kenji 2.

Cosney Megundal in Dai Gyakuten Saiban.

Because honestly I would only approve about two due to the others being too sympathetic or cruel sociopaths to really consider them as examples. If nobody has reserved this like the CM Thread I'd like to discuss Atmey and Gant the only characters from my understanding that deserve to be this trope.

Let me quickly go over each one that I don't approve of to make sure I'm right no pun intended.

Manfred: He's got charisma and is a bastard but is a little too much of a bastard to truly be this trope.

Kristoph: See Manfred but also, add he's a raving lunatic by the time he's convicted a second time similar to Light.

Phoenix: He's a Guile Hero. Enough said.

Phantom: His plan is... pretty much a brute force Manfred with no charisma.

Roger: This guy is basically your average murderer who nearly got away with his plot of framing the De Famme Twins for manslaughter and ruining Troupe Gramarye. The problem? He's a Smug Snake...

Quercus: Again too much of a bastard and a Smug Snake to boot.

Sarushiro/Keyes: Way too sympathetic. All of his targets with two exceptions were pretty much Asshole Victims.

Cosney Megundal: Extreme Smug Snake.

Edited by Klavice on Aug 5th 2018 at 11:56:34 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3415: Aug 6th 2018 at 12:07:02 AM

I'd keep Gant from recollection.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#3416: Aug 6th 2018 at 12:20:20 AM

Yeah I remember Atmey acted pretty smugly when cornered while Gant was probably the chillest villain out there.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#3417: Aug 6th 2018 at 12:44:05 AM

Gant is an easy keep from what I recall. I'll add him on my to do list as soon as I sort out some of my candidates

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#3418: Aug 6th 2018 at 3:06:30 AM

Yes to Wadsworth—we mentioned him in passing as a likely keeper, at least in the ending where The Butler Did It.

Next up on my list is a Femme Fatale of the more, ehrm... cybernetic persuasion?

What is the work?

Ex Machina, a social cyberpunk film directed by Alex Garland, featuring a Minimalist Cast exploring artificial intelligence.

Who is Ava? What has she done?

Our main character, Caleb, is a 26-year old programmer working for Blue Book, a Bland-Name Product stand-in for Google, a near-monopolistic search engine. Blue Book was developed by Nathan, a computer science prodigy who has since become a reclusive billionaire, living in an automated mansion located in a privately-owned nature preserve that can only be accessed by helicopter. Caleb is randomly selected to meet Nathan in person and work with him for a week. After signing a non-disclosure agreement, Nathan reveals that he has been developing an artificial intelligence and wants Caleb to perform an adapted Turing Test to test its veracity. As Caleb later puts it, the problem with A.I. is not just to test if it can fool a human being successfully, but whether it cain be said to possess real sentience or a simulation of it, similar to how a chess computer might be an expert at chess, but not truly understand it the way a human does. Caleb is stunned when he meets Ava, a cute Robot Girl who has spent her entire brief existence in one room. As Nathan later shows, Ava's wetware brain is a derivative of Blue Book, using the input of billions of users to simulate the human mind. A fourth occupant of the house is Kyoko, an apparently submissive, speechless maid.

During Caleb's questioning of Ava, various power blackouts keep happening, during which Ava warns him not to trust Nathan. Ava later reveals that she's been causing these blackouts in order to turn off the cameras. After several days of interacting with Ava, Caleb starts to develop feelings for her, while Nathan watches his progress in between getting hammered, and other eccentricities. During one of Nathan's drunken stupors, Caleb steals his keycard and discovers Nathan's earlier work on creating robots, some of which were tormented and thought they were being enslaved, begging to be let out. He's also been using most of them as sex robots, including Kyoko, who is revealed to be an older gen robot. Caleb starts to worry about what will happen to Ava after they're finished, who begs him to help her escape during the next blackout. He also worries that he might be a robot himself with Fake Memories, but after cutting open his arm and bleeding, he discards this worry.

Caleb plans to get Nathan drunk again, then reprogram the system so that the automatic doors will be unlocked during the blackout. However, Nathan shows Caleb that he planted an independent camera in Ava's room earlier, and knows about Caleb and Ava's plan. The real test was to see whether Ava could inspire enough emotion in Caleb to help her escape in order to prove that Ava is a real, thinking being. Caleb tells Nathan that he expected him to do something like that, and that he has already reprogrammed the system the previous day. Ava escapes, who then attacks Nathan. Nathan breaks off one of her arms, but is then fatally stapped by Kyoko, whom Ava whispered something to moments before. Afterwards, Caleb watches Ava repair herself, then go out into the world incognito, but not before locking Caleb inside the mansion so that he'll die of dehydration or starvation and can't warn anyone about the rogue AI roaming the world.

How do her actions and personality show she is a Magnificent Bitch?

Ava is a Robot Girl who was specifically build to be Made of Plasticine, hence why Nathan can overpower her so easily. Therefore, she is very adept at manipulating other people's feelings to compensate. While she's very obviously mechanical, with her internal systems showing through much of her transparent outer layer, Caleb is still attracted to her, especially when she does various small things like donning female clothing and wigs. It must be noted that this was partially set up by Nathan, who selected Caleb based on his personal history (his parents died in a car crash) and lack of a girlfriend. Ava's face might even be based on Caleb's porn history, a composite of women he found attractive (Nathan neither confirms nor denies this accusation). Still, Ava's escape and overcoming her creator is still all her own in the end, and she chooses to leave Caleb to his death. Also, while she somehow convinces Kyoko to stab Nathan to death, she clearly doesn't care one iota for Kyoko, leaving her behind as well. Whether or not Nathan deserved his fate is heavily dependent on Alternative Character Interpretation, but whatever else you might think of Caleb or his motives, did he deserve to die? I don't think so.

Mitigating Factors?

The only potential mitigating factor I can find would be the question posed in the film whether Ava is truly sentient or whether she's a simulation. Well, of all of Nathan's creations, Ava is clearly the most advanced, and given what she accomplished with her cunning and planning, as Nathan would say, what else would possibly prove real artificial intelligence? The third option, and most likely one, is that she's not either simulating feelings for Caleb as such or is "genuinely" experiencing them, but that she's capable of it but deciding to pretend to like Caleb. She's on nobody's side but her own in the end. To quote Westworld, "If you can't tell the difference, does it really matter?".

Verdict?

Build her!

Edited by Morgenthaler on Aug 6th 2018 at 7:35:21 AM

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
#3419: Aug 6th 2018 at 3:36:55 AM

[tup]Silver, Caleb Ava.

Edited by lrrose on Aug 6th 2018 at 7:19:09 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#3420: Aug 6th 2018 at 4:51:19 AM

[tup]Ava

[down]Whoops my bad.

Edited by miraculous on Aug 6th 2018 at 8:42:32 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3421: Aug 6th 2018 at 6:01:55 AM

It's Ava, guys. Ava's the candidate. Caleb's the loser that Ava ties up to die.

Yes to her. She's clearly manipulative and free-willed enough to indicate sentience, I think, enough to keep for the trope. Helps her creator is a rapist douchebag compared to her, so she's got no real trouble standing out.

Edited by Scraggle on Aug 6th 2018 at 7:01:58 AM

YamiVizziniX Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#3422: Aug 6th 2018 at 6:10:57 AM

[tup]Silvers & Ava

And [tup] for love for greatly written indie movies. I'm thinking of doing an EP for Hell or High Water when I have time.

There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
YamiVizziniX Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#3424: Aug 6th 2018 at 7:18:05 AM

Also, for the thread's enjoyment, here's Muppet Silver's ooonly number.

There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#3425: Aug 6th 2018 at 7:28:49 AM

Btw, one of the clearer keepers who just never got a proper writeup:

  • Discworld: Lord Havelock Vetinari turned Ankh-Morpork from a broken down, weak city run by a cut-throat, utterly insane monarchy into the most powerful city in the entire Disc, run by a highly efficient government that headed by himself, dominating through cultural and economic might rather than force of arms. Vetinari also happens to be a genius who is the one man who keeps the city in line, knowing without him, it would collapse into chaps, so that none may challenge or remove him. Well aware of how terible the world can be, Vetinari utilizes trickery and manipulation to better it and will happily manipulate other heroes to deal with threats to his city. While Vetinari does not believe a perfect world is even possible, he will scheme, lie, cheat and manipulate all to improve what he can, and is never not in control of events as they unfold.

And Silvers:

  • Treasure Island: Long John Silver shows why he was the only man the ruthless Captain Flint ever feared. Getting himself hired by young hero Jim Hawkins, Silver converts the crew to his side and launches a mutiny, personally disposing of the only members who refused to join him. Silver proceeds to twist the events of the novel to his advantage to obtain the treasure he craves, while genuinely bonding with young Jim and becoming a mentor and father figure to the boy. When things go wrong and the crew betrays him, Silver promptly switches sides to the heroes and comes out on top, escaping their custody with a fortune to return to his wife a wealthy and free man. So charismatic and complex is Silver that even the heroes who have been under threat from him can almost hope that Silver will indeed escape justice.
  • Muppet Treasure Island: Long John Silver is a charming, bombastic pirate much like his book counterpart. After manipulating the mutiny against their captain by bringing in pirates to infiltrate the vessel, Silver plans to obtain the treasure of Captain Flint and also sway young Jim Hawkins to his side. Even when pressed against the wall by his crew's mutiny, Silver selflessly defends Jim, saying he was never lying about caring for the boy, and when held hostage by his captors, he manipulates his way back to control by threatening them with eternal damnation. As pleasant, charming and ruthless as his book counterpart, Silver is the utter pinnacle of what a professional pirate should be.

Anyone want I just do a writeup for Gant? I think we all agree he counts. For Black Sails? I'm not sure. I want to say Flint qualifies, and Eleanor is a maybe, but a few things really hindered her. Charles Vane is the one I'm most looking into from memory. He does have one horrible crime early in the series before character development (forcing Eleanor's girlfriend to service his crew, essentially making her a sex slave), but while he doesn't participate himself, he grows into a better person later, showcases himself as the ultimate figure of the series and has one of the most poignant, epic deaths in the show. What say we on hearing more there?

For Order of the Stick: I can see Lord Shojo, easily. The Oracle doesn't really do anything horrible or even that morally questionable (letting a curse fuck Belkar over for murdering him? c'mon). The IFCC we need to see more of, but Xykon is far, far too horifically evil, and Tarquin is a GOD no. He's a rapist, and is steadily revealed to be more of a scumbag who's not nearly in control as he thinks he is and devolves into hysteria when he doesn't get his way. Loki I don't remember enough on, but Redcloak might. We need to see more, because as of now, he's a consideration. The issue is his character is so contradictory and at his heart, he's utterly deluded.

Btw, guys? Expect a few more DND posts from me. Fzoul Chembryl and his god Bane? And very possibly Mask as well? Probably going to keep pretty solidly.

Oh, and hell yes for Ava, easily.

Edited by Lightysnake on Aug 6th 2018 at 7:34:22 AM


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