During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yeah looking at his tropes now it makes him not really seem like enough of a bastard, I will just abstain for now.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"A 'Yes' to Bib, Jix, Lumiya, Savan, and Vilia always game for more SW Keeps!
As for Klaus? I can back jackie up here, I think he's got abundance of magnificence and the bastardry is definitely a tougher sell, but he puts Jesper through dangerous situations just to teach him lessons several times, and the end has him literally sit back and let Jesper risk life and limb to save presents from the Krums and Ellingboes...when they weren't even real presents, and Jesper nearly gets himself killed several times over trying to protect them. Near the end of the chase Klasu does urge Jesper to just let them be destroyed as it's "not worth it", but he keeps up the charade to such a point that I can't say it's not bastard enough to jeopardize the life of your friend with a lie just to teach him a lesson and fool your enemies.
On top of putting Jesper through paces throughout the flick, I'd say Klaus just skirts by on the bastard part, so 'Yes' to him.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!![]()
There’s a slight error on the write-up for Mystique. There’s a latter where there should be a later.
![]()
Thanks for the catch. That was my bad.
Edited by Bullman on Dec 25th 2020 at 11:24:35 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadWell with that information, I'll go back to my original
for Klaus.
I'm gonna lean yes to Klaus for now, and do my final two SW MB's now.
The first is from the Dark Forces games and associated lure, the Inquisitor and infamous Dark Jedi Jerec.
Who is Jerec?
A Miraluka Jedi, a species of near humans who are entirely eyeless. Miraluka see through the Force. Jerec was apprenticed to Jedi Master Jocasta Nu, where he acquired a hunger for knowledge. Jerec missed the Clone Wars due to a knowledge-finding expedition, returning when the Empire had risen. Found by the Inquisitors, Jerec was offered a choice: join the Empire or die. Jerec embraced the Dark Side, converting eagerly. Jerec would convert a number of other Jedi to his side but cultivated them as loyal to him first and foremost, becoming their Master while also adopting friendly relations with other Sith Cults, including the brutally wicked Lord Cronal. Jerec became one of the foremost scholars of Dark Side knowledge in the Empire and one of the strongest Darksiders. It was even rumored he would have been apprenticed to Palpatine if not for Vader....a fact Jerec was aware of.
Palpatine noted Jerec's growing ambition and lack of loyalty and assigned him in places where he could keep one hell of an eye on him but Jerec still uncovered a great secret: one thousand years prior, on the battle of Ruusan, when the ancient Sith order was wiped out alongside the Jedi Army of Light by a Sith technique called the Thought Bomb, the souls of the Jedi and Sith were imprisoned...a source of incredible power to be harnessed...
Jerec built an information network, combining powerful backers with loyla subordinates all to his own ambition, and putting together acolytes, from the S Ithspawn Gorc and Pic, the fallen Jedi Maw, the former Twi'lek trainee Boc and Cronal's own daughter Sariss whom he used to seduce and eliminate a governor after turning the man's son Yun to the dark side. Jerec used his Inquisitor position to fund his personal ambitions, using his own scehmes there.
Jerec disguised his own works as hunting rebels where he met Morgan Katarn, a rebel leader, killing him. Hunting for the Valley of the Jedi, Jerec used the Inquisitorius to locate a Jedi Master who knew the location, Qu Rahn. Jerec plucked the location from him and killed him. When Palpatine fell, Jerec manipulated the resulting warlords to use their resources, all to break clear and get to the Valley of the Jedi, where he formed a deep enmity with Morgan Katarn's son: burgeoning Jedi Kyle. Now, skipping the game plot, K Yle steadily defeated the Dark Acolytes until Jerec faced him on Ruusan. Jerec seized the power of the Valley, forcing Kyle to cut him off from omnipotence...Jerec tried to tempt Kyle to the dark side, but a Jedi above all now, Kyle threw Jerec his own Lightsaber. Scoffing at Kyle's mercy, Jerec drew his blade and struck...only for Kyle to cut him down, Jerec collapsing and dissolving into light as Kyle freed the long-trapped spirits of Ruusan to fulfill the prophecy of a thousand years: A Knight shall come. A battle shall be fought. The Prisoners shall go free."
Any mitigating issues?
Jerec is awesome, and a well loved villain. He's brilliant, one of the most learned men in the empire, he's crafty and manipulative, charismatic as all hell, ruthless to the core and manages to do a ton of this while ostensibly loyal to the Empire. Jerec has no loyalty to anyone or anything but himself and while he's never a Sith, he sure as hell keeps it going in spirit. Jerec is 100 percent self serving and he manages to use his role in the Inquisitors to build himself up, always keeping the prize in mind.
Is he evil? Oh hell yes. Jerec is an Inquisitor, a murderer, he wipes out a settlement to cover what he's up to, kills plenty of people...now, he's not really a sadist. He likes a good fight as much as anyone, he enjoys destruction and death, but he doesn't participate in gruesome torture or planetary destruction. He's a classic baddie: become omnipotent, take over the Galaxy, rule as Emperor. I can't really say Jerec has any redeeming features because, well...he doesn't at all. But he never crosses any horrible lines and while he doesn't care for his subordinates, he never really betrays them, throws them aside or misuses them. He does...appreciate them in a sense like you can appreciate good tools.
Conclusion?
A long-overdue yes for Jerec. One more and then I get the writeups done.
Now...after DeCarta did this one...something's been on my mind. I am actually not sure on this one, but let's give it a whirl.
So, from the Darth Bane novels...I'm sure we remember the tales there of bane. But there is one I wanted to discuss there. I give you Darth Zannah.
Who is Zannah?
Born on Somov Rit, a remote world, Zannah grew up as "Rain" with her cousins, Tom/Darovit and Hardin/Bug. When the Jedi were forced to recruit the young children about, little Rain proved herself to go along...this would have consequences that would have grave repercussions for the galaxy...
Their shuttle was attacked on Ruusan and Rain was lost, ejected out and landing in a remote former of Ruusan where she was found by a group of psychic fluffballs native to the world called Bouncers, one in particular named Laa she dearly befriended....now, things happened and in the annihilation of Ruusan, most Bouncers went mad, forcing the Jedi to put them down...Laa was killed by a Jedi, enraging Rain...who killed the Jedi with her force abilities. It was there she was found by Bane. Rain, after a talk with him realized she was a killer...and Bane found his apprentice. Finding Darovit again, Bane ordered Rain to eliminate him when he drew a saber and Rain blasted off his hand, saying there would be no purpose in killing him.
Bane abandoned Rain and ordered her to find a way to the world of Onderon and seek him out. Rain manipulated her way onto a ship with a soldier, a scavenger and his kids...she ended up murdering the lot of them, and so was Rain no more. She embraced her birth name, Zannah. She made it to Onderon, found Bane...and then her tutelage began. Ten years Zannah trained in the Sith arts while assisting bane in building his massive information and favors network across the galaxy. Zannah was sent on a variety of missions where she used cunning and guile to manipulate Sith rivals into open conflict to destroy them. One such mission was to infiltrate and destroy a group of anti-Republic terrorists. Zannah, having been o deprived of affection for so long, became the lover of a chief members, a Twi'lek, named Kelad'den...using this, she manipulated them into an attempt on the life of the Supreme Chancellor, which got Kel killed and some distrust from other members of the group. She was taken before the leader of the group, Hetton, a minor darksider himself and demonstrated her power by using her Sith sorcery to destroy the mind of one, who had also been Kel's lover...Hetton was entranced, realizing Zannah was a Sith and pledged himself as her apprentice.
Zannah realized this was a bit of an issue and decided on a fix: let Hetton think he was her apprentice, lure him to Bane and let this problem work itself out. She played no part in assisting Hetton and his killers against her master and managed to stave off an ENRAGED Bane to convince him she had just been on his side and if he'd died, he would've deserved to.
Zannah later infiltrated the Jedi for information where she found they had brought in her cousin Darovit who knew the Sith had survived. Snatching him off, she retreated back to Bane, realizing they were about to have company...a group of Jedi attacked and in the resulting fight, Bane was critically wounded as Zannah finished the Jedi off....dragging Bane to a healer who once saved him, Zannah was determined to save her Master as he had so much more to teach her, with Darovit urging her to give in to the light...Zannah swore to give up the Dark Side for the healer, Caleb to save Bane...she lied. Zannah destroyed Darovit's mind with Sith sorcery, murdered Caleb and let the Jedi think Darovit was the Sith so he'd be cut down, whereupon Zannah revealed her true intent to Bane...who was pleased.
Ten more years passed and Bane's physical health declined, making him annoyed that Zannah refused to challenge him. This wasn't cowardice, but pragmatism: Zannah was just making sure Bane wasn't faking it, and wanted an apprentice of her own. She settled on fallen Jedi Set Harth, press-ganged him into service and learned Bane was trying to find the secret to extend his life and steal bodies. Zannah was INCENSED, thinking Bane had betrayed the Rule of Two. Okay, kinda compressing, but Zannah went through a whole helluva lot. Set Harth flew the coop...things came down to Zannah finding Bane on the world of Ambria where Bane and his new apprentice, the Iktochi assassin, the Huntress, waited. Zannah agreed to take her as an apprentice should she win and she and Bane faced off for the last time...Zannah had the duel won before Bane used Essence Transfer: the winner of the battle of wills would take the body. the loser would be cast into torment for eternity.
Zannah won, even as pieces of Bane lay imprinted on her, but she was now Darth Zannah, Dark Lord of the Sith and the master of Darth Cognus...until one day, Darth Cognus would challenge her in turn and the apprentice would become the master...and on and on ti would go...until Darth Sidious's rise.
So how's she operate? Mitigating issues?
Okay, in regards to plotting and manipulation? Zannah's as good as Bane. Now, in the novel Rule of Two, Bane can't move in public so Zannah is the one who gets stuff done. She has to be good to achieve this, manipulating the flow of galactic conflicts to remove rivals and cover for the Sith. Her plot for Hetton and the final plot with Caleb and Darovit...yeah, Zannah is singlehandedly responsible for the survival of the Sith by the end. Her manipulation skills are not really at issue whatsoever. Zannah can be extremely charming when she wants to be. As an adult, she's much more stoic and reserved, but she's incredibly intelligent. The only major mistake she makes is thinking Harth is a worthy apprentice, but this doesn't bite her much at all, Harth just runs to be free of it when he's done and Zannah just moves on...incidentally, she even defeats Bane by cleverness and pure willpower. If that's not enough, Zannah's entire fighting style i based on nothing but pragmatic strategy.
Now...as for bastardry there;s two things to consider...what she does to Darovit and Caleb is horrible but not without purpose. She needs Darovit insane and to present Caleb's death as horribly as possible to fool the Jedi. It's horrific but Bane is responsible for things just as bad (IE: The Thought Bomb)....the other is what she does to Kel's other lover Cyndra. Zannah hits her with Sith Sorcery to damage her mind at one point as a demonstration to Hetton when Cyndra tries to kill her. Zannah notes she could pull back and leave Cyndra sane, but annihilates her mind utterly on a moment of pique for Cyndra trying to kill her but also because she has a flash of Cyndra and Kel together...this is pretty brutal, but Zannah's never, ever shown to give in to such momentary fancies of sadism again...honestly, I think description of her as a sadist isn't accurate: Zannah is never to my recollection shown enjoying hurting others. When she kills them, it's always swift and to the point, never using her sorcery for the purpose of hurting others. She's also only 18 here and grows immensely through the rest of the book and trilogy, becoming a much more restrained Sith Lord as it goes.
I mean, by the end...Zannah is evil as all hell, the little sweet girl she was is gone and only Darth Zannah remains..but like Bane, she's never wantonly sadistic and believes it to be pointless. She even has some odd standards: she is outraged Bane intends to betray his own vision by trying to live forever, with Bane snapping back it was only because she was an unworthy apprentice....even though she was only being entirely pragmatic about it, with Zannah proving herself to finally be the stronger.
Conclusion?
I personally think Zannah hits the mark myself, but what say we? I say this begets discussion.
~De Carta, what say you?
I... really need a cluster of firsthand opinions here. I know she gets more pragmatic thanks to Bane's influence but I was under the impression the character—at least for much of her tenure—was a sadistic Hate Sink who might flunk the heinous standard but constantly pulls petty shit to spite people like rivals in love and her own boyfriend. I'm really not sure if the "cool" factor is there, at least from what I know of her.

Fair point on Klaus.
Edit: Hearing Ravok out, reverting to a yes.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Dec 25th 2020 at 12:46:28 PM