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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#33926: Dec 22nd 2020 at 8:11:21 PM

Hey I noticed on the Other Media page that the Dungeons and Dragons section isn't in alphabetical order since the Assassin live-play should go before Critical Role. Is it OK if I fix this in the drafts?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#33927: Dec 22nd 2020 at 8:23:09 PM

Go for it. Thanks for catching (god I love sandboxes)!

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#33928: Dec 22nd 2020 at 8:36:05 PM

[tup] to Helryx and Blandacrin.

Anyways, with the Magic the Gathering stuff out of the way, I wanted to do a quick effort post on a minor character from one of the DL Cs from Assassin's Creed Origins. I'm not really sure on this guy since he has only one major manipulation to his name, but he meets all the basic criteria so I thought he was worth a shot.

Assassin's Creed Origins deals with the origins of the Assassin Brotherhood in ancient Egypt and is told through the eyes of Bayek of Siwa, who forms the Hidden Ones, the proto-assassins, at the game's conclusion to kill tyrants and protect the innocent. The first DLC is the Hidden Ones and deals with Bayek traveling to the Sinai Peninsula to deal with the depredations of one Roman General Rufio. Along the way, Bayek's main ally among the native is the rebellion leader Gamilat who has some rather underhanded methods of fighting against the Roman occupation.

Who is Gamilat?

Gamilat is a beloved leader among the Nabatean peoples native to the peninsula and the leader of the rebellion that is fighting off the cruel and despotical reign of General Gaius Julius Rufio. Gamilat's first major role in the story is as a background character for the base game where he learns of a planned invasion of Egypt by Rufio and sets up the foundations to foil it by sending the detail to a scribe in Alexandria who in turn sends word to Bayek who kills Rufio's agents and stops the invasion before it can come to fruition. This serves as a lead in and foreshadowing for the first DLC.

Gamilat had been leading the rebels fairly successfully for a while, but the Romans begin cracking down harder so he allies himself with the Hidden Ones and feeds them intelligence to help them run guerilla warfare against the Romans. This eventually culminates in two Hidden Ones getting caught up in a massacre and Bayek coming to Sinai to salvage the situation. Gamilat meets Bayek in the Sinai bureau and gives him all the intelligence his rebels could gather on three of Rufio's lieutenants and gives him rebel support in carrying out the assassinations. Gamilat personally helps Bayek track down one of the targets in a pyramid, and, while the target wasn't there, manages to find a scroll detailing the location of a set of legendary blades he gifts to Bayek. Eventually, Bayek kills all three lieutenants and ultimately General Rufio after the latter sends his troops to massacre a village. It's here we learn a terrible truth about the beloved rebel leader. Bayek's former wife Aya reveals that Gamilat sends raids on Romans and sends his agents to hide in the villages to lure the Romans in. His agents then provoke the Romans into starting massacres and denies his rebels to help the village until after the slaughter. Afterwards, Gamilat swoops in and presents the dead as martyrs and easily recruits the survivors to the rebel cause by playing on their desire for revenge to swell his ranks.

When Bayek learns of this, he tracks Gamilat down to a sunken quarry where Gamilat was meditating and demands answers. Gamilat enforces the righteousness of his cause and claims the deaths were a necessity to keep the rebellion alive, which is enough to drive Bayek to initiate a fight to the death. For his part, Gamilat fights incredibly tactically considering he wasn't planning to battle at his meditation site. Atop a sunken quarry, he fights by pushing Bayek off their platform with a shield rush and then peppering him with arrows as he swims back to the battle site. When Bayek makes it back up, he sets fire to the bridge leading to him and begins shooting ballista bolts at Bayek. Overall, it's a fairly challenging final boss of the DLC. Anyways, eventually mortally wounded by Bayek, Gamilat gracefully accepts death and admits that his fanaticism towards his cause led him to stop caring about the innocent. He asks Bayek to always protect the people which leads to Bayek codifying the first rule of the Assassin codex to never harm an innocent and wishes that the Hidden Ones last until the end of time.

Is he intelligent?

As a rebel leader, Gamilat did as well as could be expected against the entirety of the Roman occupation force and led an effective guerilla warfare campaign and was smart enough to involve the Hidden Ones in his rebellion. His main act of manipulation was quite devious on his part and his boss fight shows off his quick thinking skills and clever use of his surroundings to get the edge in a fight.

Is he charismatic?

Gamilat was so incredibly loved by his people that Bayek and Aya had to intentionally confront him when he was alone since they knew his people would fight to the death for him. His manipulations of survivors, while underhanded, further shows off his charisma in just how easily he could set fire to the hearts of native population. He was so beloved that after his death, stories and songs were created in his honor and the death of Rufio was credited entirely to him, which served the Hidden Ones well enough as they sought to return to the shadows and out of the public eye. In game interqactions with Gamilat do reinforce this image as he's a charming and laid back man who earns the friendship of Bayek until he learns the truth and very nearly talks Bayek down before his convictions win out.

Is he a bastard?

Setting up the massacres of villagers to create martyrs easily crosses him over the line to bastard, but it is worth noting that Gamilat did genuinely believe in his cause and is far less monstrous than the other antagonists of the DLC. He's particularly a saint compared to Complete Monster Rufio and you can almost sympathize with his methods considering how awful his enemies are.

Any disqualifying factors?

The main thing that made me hesitate is that he only has one major manipulation to his name is his recruitment methods. He does show clever tactics during his boss fight, but is all that enough to stand out among all the other candidates in the franchise? Gamilat ticks off all the basic boxes for this trope, an intelligent and charismatic leader with a bout of bastardy, so that's why I at least thought he deserved a discussion.

Final Verdict?

On the fence myself, so I'm curious what you guys decide.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#33929: Dec 22nd 2020 at 8:46:02 PM

Having played the Hidden Ones DLC and posted Rufio as a CM on the other forum, I am comfortable to give Gamilat a [tup] (I can’t believe that I did not noticed him). The twist that he was a villain at the end was really well done.

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#33930: Dec 22nd 2020 at 9:09:42 PM

[tup]Blancadrin and Gamilat

Found this on Golden Dreams

  • Magnificent Bastard: MGM studio head Louis B. Mayer comes across as one of these:
    Louis B. Mayer: You know, I hire what I think is best, and then I leave them alone. If it all works out - fine. If not, I fire them.

1. NRLE, 2. The ride is nothing but a basic recap of Calfornia's history, 3. Nothing about him is Magnificent or Bastardly.

My god this thread was a godsend

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#33931: Dec 23rd 2020 at 12:25:47 AM

[tup] Meachum, Grogan, Helryx, Bilancadrin and Gamilat

[tdown] Dathon

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#33932: Dec 23rd 2020 at 1:36:47 AM

[tup]gamilat and Blancandrin

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#33933: Dec 23rd 2020 at 4:55:53 AM

Yes to Blancandrin and Gamilat.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#33937: Dec 23rd 2020 at 9:05:22 AM

[tup]Gamilat.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#33941: Dec 23rd 2020 at 3:04:31 PM

[tup] to Hugh Meachaum, Anto Grogan, Helryx, Blancandrin and Gamilat.

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#33943: Dec 23rd 2020 at 4:10:14 PM

Been busy today but after I go for a run I'll try and get back to doing my organizing thing.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#33944: Dec 23rd 2020 at 6:03:02 PM

Okay, I have a very unexpected Star Wars character here...in honor of the recently ended Mandalorian, this is from a brief cameo who's...better at this game in Legends. By far.

I give you...Bib Fortuna.

Who is Bib Fortuna?

Jabba the Hutt's Majordomo, a Twi'lek criminal born on Ryloth. Bib holds a complex relationship with his former homeworld, which had exiled him long ago for criminal activity. Bib became a criminal in broader galactic society where he met the one being whose life would be intertwined with his own: Jabba Desilijic Tiure. Bib impressed Jabba and eventually returned to Ryloth for revenge, ransacking cities, leading raids that killed and captured many Twi'leks...however, Bib intended to force them to evolve, to break slavery as a Twi'lek way of life...if he needed to resort to ruthless means? So be it. the young Twi'lek heir of Clan Secura, Nat, was caught by Bib there, who killed his mother as an act of mercy. Taking the young Nat under his wing, Bib plotted to one day return him to Ryloth in command...with Bib ruling through him, of course.

Now, Bib worked close with a Corellian named Bidlo Kwerve for Jabba's favor. For Jabba's birthday, the two captured a lost rancor, with Bib securing the services of monster-tamer Malakili...Jabba was so thrilled he offered Bib and Kwerve a gift: one to be his Majordomo, one to have a "greater reward." Bib, knowing all too well how volatile Jabba could be? jumped to the Majordomo position. Kwerve was dropped to the Rancor to be its first meal. Later on, Jabba, who HATED Nat Secura, wanted to throw the poor guy to the rancor. Bib, to save Nat, knocked him out and had the local creepy monk guys, the B'omarr, remove and preserve his brain while promising to get him a better one.

Bib often accompanied Jabba about, while despising the Hutt for his depravities, appetites and mistreating Bib constantly...clandestinely, he plotted to kill the Hutt, recruiting seven other soldiers for it. However, when another old friend of Jabba was visiting with a dancing girl, Bib planted a blaster to make it look like an assassination attempt...thing is? It WAS...just not that way. The dancing girl was the "weapon," being a synthetic droid shell ful of little monsters called Freckers. Bib's coup was foiled since...if Jabba was killed, Bib couldn't learn his secrets. Bib leaped into the fight, killed one of his own men before he coul blow it in panic and "killed like a champion" for Jabba, who admitted that he had misjudged Bib and would value him better from that day on. Bib later allowed Luke Skywalker into Jabba's palace thanks to an old Jedi mind trick...Luke, of course, caused the death of Jabba...Bib fled back to the palace but the b'omarr turned on him to remove his brain and place it in a spider walker....stuck with Nat, Bib eventually managed to lure another Twi'lek down named Firith Olan and saw him knocked out, dragging him to have his own brain removed and his own to be put in his body, while getting Nat a new body as well...under a new identity, Bib happily partnered with Jabba's old rival, never letting her know his true identity...

And set about to rebuild Jabba's empire for himself...ending up entirely on top by the end.

Any mitigating issues?

In the EU, Bib is no "weak minded fool." He's actually extremely clever, calculating, ruthless and...unusually for even a minor canon villain, he wins completely...he goes from a brain in the jar to a criminal kingpin, which is no mean feat when you think about it. Bib doesn't often get focus, but when he does, he proves he's a damn fine plotter and it's telling if not for a completely unforeseeable event, Bib would have usurped Jabba flawlessly...it's also a pretty smooth move to have your ward's brain removed o save his life and then pass off the resulting catatonia of the body as nothing more than "oh, he hated you and wanted to deny you the pleasure of sport" to Jabba. It works.

The only time I think Bib ever breaks down is needing to save Jabba and this is more "Oh, goddammit, I can't let him die!"....now, I should note as well...Bib is a very bad person. While he does want to benefit the Twi'leks later, he leads a horrible raid on Ryloth for revenge against them. He's a murderer, a slaver, a ruthless bastard and he does a lot of terrible things. THAT said, Bib is no Jabba, and he's revolted by the hutt in general. He plans to torture Jabba for his secrets but he states if anyone else saw what he did from Jabba....well, they'd damn well want to do the same to get Jabba's secrets. Even that aside, Bib does care for Nat (albeit conditionally) and is capable of friendships. He's pragmatic, but he's not out committing atrocities for fun, not is he into the nasty shit Jabba is.

Conclusion?

Kind of a shocking one, but yes to Bib'fortuna

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#33949: Dec 23rd 2020 at 6:09:25 PM

[tup]Fortuna

Well seems Canon wasn't so kinda to him....

Edited by miraculous on Dec 23rd 2020 at 6:09:58 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#33950: Dec 23rd 2020 at 6:09:39 PM

[tup] Bib Fortuna. Somewhat of an ignomious end in Canon.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid

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