During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Found this on Doctor Strange's YMMV page, regarding D'spayre. Right off the bat, it admits that he's a Smug Snake, so not sure on that. It could be that he's just arrogant, but either way, imma replace it with The Chessmaster.
- At the end of the "Great Fear" storyline, Nightmare and the Dweller in Darkness have dissolved their partnership and turned on each other. They're too evenly matched in power, however, so fellow demon D'Spayre—who by his own admission is much weaker than either of them—suggests a contest. He'll side with whoever proves better at scaring the populace of Earth. They agree, since even D'Spayre's power would be enough to tip the scales for the winner, and they immediately set about mystically terrifying the whole planet. This goes well at first, and all the fear generated powers up both demon lords. But then suddenly all that power goes away. They did their job too well, and the people of Earth are no longer experiencing fear but despair. So guess who's getting all that power now? D'Spayre is now so incredibly powerful that both Nightmare and the Dweller immediately flee the dimension, and even Doctor Strange can't hurt him. He's normally a Smug Snake, but for that one story, D'Spayre was a Magnificent Bastard.
Oh, and a
to Morgana. Her goals don't make much sense, but hey, she pulls it off well.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Dec 22nd 2020 at 9:38:39 AM
- Pokémon Gaia: Morgana is the leader of the New Elders, a group that searches for the Legendary Pokemon Regigigas to awaken them in order to force the region of Orbtus back to the ancient era to preserve traditions. Morgana orders her loyal Knights to catch the Three Regis despite suffering defeats in combat at the protagonist's hands. Wanting to obtain a mysterious table, Morgana lures the protagonist and his allies to ancient ruins and destroys the entry to trap them inside while her subordinates steal the unprotected table. Invading the ruins containing the gate to Regigigas' prison, Morgana is defeated by the protagonist but is prepared for it, giving a Revival Herb to her Salamence so it can use the secret attack Molten Raze to open the gate, while sending her Knights to guard an important place despite her promise to watch Regigas's awakening with them. Eventually challenged by the protagonist inside the Gaia's Chamber, Morgana calls him the class of person that she wants in her world, feeling bad for having to unleash the power of the Regis against him.
Its this Ok for the drafts?
Watch me destroying my countryYeah you can't be a Magnificent Bastard for just one of your storylines.
Decided to go scouting for more Potholes for fun.
This one is from the My Little Pony Fanfic A Brief History of Equestria, so I know 43 is thrilled with this one. It's on the Awesome page, BTW:
- Platinum's Thanatos Gambit, the final act in a lifetime of magnificence — by killing herself, she not only ends the royal line, but causes all the royal family's money and holdings to default to the Equestrian government, keeping them out of the hooves of the nobility. This finally completes Platinum's long-term goal of breaking the nobility's back, eliminating their last chance of ever regaining their stranglehold on the common pony. Hell, at the very least, this ruined Count Pyrite's plan to force her to (or forge documents to make it look like she did) make Clover's adoption by the royal family official so that he could then make Clover's son the new Puppet King (and knowing Platinum, she already knew all about this scheme).
x2 That was one of the reasons I downvoted him. Can't speak for others though. In any event the other mitigating factors Ravok brought up were pretty bad.
Well could she count?
Edited by jjjj2 on Dec 22nd 2020 at 12:58:27 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midIt's been a tough decision, but I think I'll have to agree with the consensus and give Dalton a
Alright here's my write-up for Rosalita Vega
- Warrior (2019): Season 2: Rosalita Vega runs an illegal fighting pit on the Barbary Coast and has been planning her revenge on Elijah Rooker for killing her parents and stealing her family's land; To her wits, Vega has her sister, Marisol, marry Rooker to manipulate him into hand over his land and wealth to Marisol should he die and persuades Ah Sahm and his friends to travel to Rooker's Hill with her when they learn Rooker is hosting a fighting tournament there. Being invited to have lunch with Rooker, Vega uses this opportunity to kill Rooker and has Marisol sneak her, Ah Sahm, Young Jun, and Hong out of Rooker's Hill on the guise that they got captured. When Rooker's bodyguard, Smits, shoots Vega, Vega dies happy having accomplished everything she wanted and hands over the prizes money to Ah Sahm and his friends as gratitude for helping her out.
Edited by G-Editor on Dec 22nd 2020 at 10:53:12 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffAnother unapproved Magnificent Bastard wick I found, this time referring to Dimentio on the Awesome subpage for Super Paper Mario:
- You're talking to that nice old wizard, and suddenly, Dimentio, who at this point has begun to reveal what a Magnificent Bastard he is, shows up out of nowhere and SENDS YOU TO THE PG VERSION OF HELL. No battle, nothing. Just snaps his fingers and pretty much kills your whole party. What's more, he's relying on your ability to overcome that, and has in fact helped you out.
Recalling the previous discussions surrounding Dimentio, I don't think there should be any objections to me removing this wick. I linked to the thread in my edit reason.
I just remembered two other Magnificent Bastard characters I posted without the threads approval some time ago, before I fully knew about this thread, both from Shooter and am submitting them (one here, the other in a second post) for official confirmation or rejection
Hugh Meachum
Intelligent: Meachum is a CIA Cold War veteran who masterminded lots of ops both on behalf of official government agendas and otherwise. He masterminds complex assassinations and frame jobs, including one for JFK, that go largely inspected, while (in his second appearance) setting up fake conspiracy theorists and such that his enemies will be drawn to, in order to alert him when someone is looking into his secrets.
Bastard: Meachum doesn't feel bound by the laws and rules of society. He is willing to betray his accomplices (including his own cousin) by setting them up to be killed, is willing to frame a Shell-Shocked Veteran for a crime he didn't commit and try to murder the man, either ordered or tried to cover up the massacre of a Nicaraguan village, and eventually becomes a drug dealer after leaving the CIA.
Must not be too detestable: Meachum's earlier actions are motivated by a genuine desire to stop the Vietnam war and save lives (even if it means killing a president) and he feels remorse that it was All for Nothing, and that Lee Harvey Oswald killed an innocent policeman. Despite opposing the Vietnam War, once it starts he does his duty throughout the war and stop the spread of communism through force, which he then becomes a little too comfortable with. Even when he betrays his accomplices, he cares about preserving their loved ones memories of them.
Think on their feet: While he is out-gambitted by the protagonist both times, he does do a good job of hiring competent assassins, spreading misinformation, faking his own death and such.
Have charm: Meachum is able to persuade people to help him with his schemes while making them genuinely think it's for the greater good, and voicing some thoughtful points about why he thinks that. He sincerely respects henchmen who are willing to risk their lives for his plans. He has a certain amount of respect for the people who he tries to kill, and when he's finally about to die, chooses to make a final confession about his worst betrayals rather than let the secret die with him.
Edited by Melinda on Dec 22nd 2020 at 1:32:32 AM
Meachaum
Ah this is his book version who was a Noble Demon right ? I know the film adapted out his redeeming qualities ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Anto Grogan (from the Stephen Hunter book, I, Sniper).
Intelligent: He murders a pair of socially prominent blackmailers and then engages in some Serial Killings, Specific Target scheming to cover it up, and avoids the suspicion of the authorities for some time after his name first comes up in the investigation.
Bastard: He framed and murdered a heroic Vietnam veteran, tarnishing his legacy. He inflicts some serious Cold-Blooded Torture on the hero after he's found out. He seeks fights with uneven odds in his favor. He killed civilians while serving in the Middle East, and he runs for his life as his men are being killed in the climax.
Must not be too detestable: He argues that his boss's many years of philanthropy make up for his Dark Secret, shows a healthy amount of respect for the hero, and does offer to leave a confession clearing the name of The Fall Guy in exchange for the evidence against his boss (although he might have been lying).
Think on their feet: When an investigator (posing as an investor for his new kind of rifle) shows up, Grogan pretends to be completely fooled by the disguise and gives the man information which seems helpful to the investigation but is really just steering him towards various innocent parties. Once all of his team are dead, he's willing to commit to a one-on-one Sniper Duel he nearly wins rather than just run.
Have charm: He's a fun guy to have drinks or talk firearms with and remains chatty and quasi-regretful and respectful while torturing the hero. He and his team have a long-lasting Villainous Friendship.
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Meachum was more of a Noble Demon (at least initially) in the books (the film version is indeed a Hate Sink and generic Corrupt Politician).
Do I need to add all of this stuff to the YMMV page or should I leave it as is?
Edited by Melinda on Dec 22nd 2020 at 1:43:41 AM
Unless there's a rule that a HS can still count, I'm not sure. Count me as an abstain, having not seen the film. I'm just waiting for an argument as to why he's listed as a HS if he isn't one.
Grogan seems more like a keeper, so yes to him.
Count me as a yes.
Edited by Klavice on Dec 22nd 2020 at 2:45:34 AM
If Meachum (book version) and Grogan get approved (and it looks like they might) then should I just leave them on the YMMV page as is or do I need to add more?
Also, on an unrelated (and likely to be contentious) note, if genocidal characters don't count as a Magnificent Bastard then should Thanos be included as one on the MCU Magnificent Bastard page?
Meachum and Grogan.
Edit:
Thanos doesn't fit the definition of genocidal as he isn't targetting any race in particular, rather everyone in the universe.
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Dec 22nd 2020 at 2:17:02 AM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"

No to Dathon.