During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
@43: Thing that helps in these cases is Teridax ultimately does "win", but most of the candidates here don't have any major interactions with him or, if they do, hold their own in facing down with him...Velika is a twist villain after Teridax is beaten, Brutaka and Axonn are smaller-scale yet face down and screw with Teridax and his plans on several occasions, and any others I have in mind are equally impressive.
It helps that the primary victims of Teridax's manipulations are the Toa themselves...when the Order of the Mata Nui steps in, their members are often the ones throwing kinks in his plans or straight up facing him down without flinching.
Speaking of, something I forgot to mention on Axonn? Teridax actually tries to dispose of him by trapping him in a Mind Rape scenario that works on pretty much anyone he uses it on...Axonn breaks free with his own sheer force of will and deductive reasoning.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!@Overlord The candidate is Captain Dathan, I presume?
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsThe other day I wrote some potential notes if we wanted the admin post having clarity about characters having to count for the trope as a whole rather than one specific sub work and explaining why Heel Face Turns are permissible. Are we fine with just the explanation or do we want that officially added in?
Another unapproved Magnificent Bastard wick I found, this time referring to Doctor Eggman on the Awesome subpage for Sonic Adventure 2:
- Eggman's still the same Magnificent Bastard he was in Adventure:
- After organising Shadow and Rouge to raid and detonate an entire island, and with six of the seven Chaos Emeralds in his possession, he declares himself ruler of the Eggman Empire, announces to the entire world that they will surrender or die, and, just to prove he isn't fucking around, powers up the Eclipse Cannon and blows up half of the moon.
- Speaking of which, Eggman tells Shadow and Rouge that he would create a distraction while they got the Emeralds. What's Eggman's idea of a distraction? Attacking a weapons carrier and singlehandedly crippling the military's forces.
- The entire "Fake Emerald" scene. Successfully holding Amy Rose at gunpoint aside, he knew all along that Tails had prepared a fake emerald, and pretty much tricked him into admitting that it was the one they were about to hand him in exchange for Amy's safe delivery. And for this little trick, he traps Sonic in an explosive capsule and launches him out of the ARK. Worse still, the capsule's explosion, and Amy's grieving are shown onscreen in the Dark Side story.
- Even after the scuffle with Tails that follows this, he still manages to get his hands on the real emerald.
- After organising Shadow and Rouge to raid and detonate an entire island, and with six of the seven Chaos Emeralds in his possession, he declares himself ruler of the Eggman Empire, announces to the entire world that they will surrender or die, and, just to prove he isn't fucking around, powers up the Eclipse Cannon and blows up half of the moon.
I know Eggman was brought up before on this thread, and determined to not count because he's ultimately being manipulated by Shadow. Either way, I cut the wick and linked to the thread in my edit reason.
Edited by chasemaddigan on Dec 21st 2020 at 8:45:46 AM
@ k410ren, yep.
Alright, I will try with this character:
Who is Captain Dathon? What has he done?
Captain Dathon is starship commander and member of the Children of Tama, an alien race that communicates through metaphors. The Federation and the Children of Tama have tried to establish relations 7 times in the last 100 years, but they could never understand each other's languages and nothing came of it.
Dathon sends out a general mathematical message to any Federation vessels nearby, which is seen as an invitation to open relations, with the Enterprise meets the Tamarian ship near the planet El-Adrel IV. Picard and Dathon try to talk to each other but fail. Dathon discusses the legend of Darmok with his first officer, a legend of two hunters who kill a monster on an island together, which in Tamarian means two people facing a common danger. Dathon knows there is a monster on El-Adrel IV and plans to teleport himself and Picard on the planet so that he can teach him the legend of Darmok and use that as a gateway to teach Picard his language. Dathon's first officer disagrees and starts to argue, but Dathon eventually silences him with a stern word.
Tamarians use their transporter to teleport Dathon and Picard on the planet and set up a scattering field to prevent the Enterprise from beaming him back. Dathon holds up 2 knives in front of Picard, Picard thinks Dathon wants to fight him and refuses when Dathon tries to give him a knife. Dathon gets annoyed with Picard and leaves him alone. At night, Dathon has a roaring fire, while Picard can't start one, with Dathon praying and play games with himself. Dathon sees Picard does not have a fire and gives Picard a burning log to start a fire. Dathon says ''Temba his arms wide'' while giving Picard the fire. The Enterprise crew sends a shuttle to retrieve Picard, but the Tamarian ship shoots it, damaging its landing gear, forcing the shuttle to return to the Enterprise.
The next day, Dathon has left his campsite and Picard tries to read his logbook. Dathon comes running in with 2 knives and tries to give one to Picard, Picard refuses, till he hears a roar. The monster coming to attack them and Dathon wants Picard to stand away from him to better attack the monster. Dathon cites more metaphors to strategize with Picard on to how to kill the monster, Picard begins to understand and agrees with Dathon's strategy. Unfortunately, the Enterprise crew at that moment tries to beam Picard away, they fail, but Picard cannot help Dathon and the monster critically wounds him.
The monster moves away and now Picard makes a fire and attempts to talk to Dathon. Realizing Temba means to give, Picard asks Dathon to explain the legend of Darmok and learns of a legend of 2 hunters, Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra, who go to an island to kill a beast together and Picard starts to further understand the Tamarian language, with Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra meaning 2 people coming together to face a common danger. Dathon then asks Picard to tell him a story and Picard tells him the story of Gilgamesh. Dathon dies during the night and Picard understands his sacrifice, but the monster is coming to kill him again.
The Enterprise attacks the Tamarian ship to force them to lower the scattering field. The Enterprise crew beams Picard back before the monster can kill him. The Tamarian ship starts attacking the Enterprise, but Picard is able to use his new knowledge of the Tamarian language to establish relations and end the attack. Picard tells the first officer Dathon has died, his crew honors him and Picard and Dathon become a metaphor to describe 2 alien cultures coming together in friendship.
Is Dathon magnificent?
I apologize for how convoluted that was, but it is what it is. Dathon set up this whole elaborate exercise just to teach Picard his language, which is both clever and dangerous, but Dathon values his goal over his life. A convoluted plan for a convoluted language. It's hard to gauge how charismatic Dathon is because you cannot understand him most of the time, but he does stuff like gently mocks Picard when Picard fails to start a fire and smiles warmly when Picard tells him the story of Gilgamesh.
Is he a bastard?
I think Dathon is a WIE, he is not evil, but he put his goal above the lives of both his crew and the Enterprise crew.
Final Verdict
I think he may be a convoluted keep.
Edit: I will say this was a great episode, even if it is hard to describe.
Edited by Overlord on Dec 21st 2020 at 6:27:25 AM
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The episode is named Darmok.
The Tamarians’ language is built around metaphors, very high-context. Their language is essentially TV Tropes taken Up To Eleven (and why ZCEs are commented out). Talking about a concept is done via giving an example from that culture; the example given in the Enterprise crew’s discussion is that an expression of love would, to a non-Tamarian familiar with Earth culture, would be “Juliet on her balcony”. However, all meaning is lost if the context is unknown. In Dathon’s case, he needs only a single phrase to explain his plan to his crew. Dathon cannot merely speak to Picard, he has to SHOW him how his people’s language operates. Since he knows of the beast on the planet, he puts himself and Picard in a situation where they can share an experience, a tale his people can pass down, and leaves instructions for his crew to not let the Enterprise crew interfere.
Edited by k410ren on Dec 21st 2020 at 10:08:36 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsI'm gonna give a leaning
, but I am open to being talked out of it. As for the note 43, I like what you have proposed
. What you say does bring up point however. Have we had candidates who did keep it together when they were a villain, put post Heel–Face Turn they were prone to freakouts and we cut them? The reason I ask is because of Michael from The Good Place. I know we recently approved him, but Awesome Kid brought up is that he doesn't exactly hold it together after his Heel–Face Turn. He is known for panicking even if he is a cunning Guile Hero.
Edited by jjjj2 on Dec 21st 2020 at 11:08:28 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midI'll abstain on Dathon for now, that's a real tough one.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"I'm honestly gonna have to stay to an abstain on Dathon. I hate doing that but this is a unique one to say the least and I really can't take a firm stance either way.
@ j, I don't think it's been an issue yet, I just wanted it noted that post-redemption there are still fuck ups that could take away their standing but thanks, I'll add the notes.
to Axonn.
Having seen the episode (really its one of the best TNG ever produced, and that's saying something), I'm going to have to
to Captain Dathon.
He's magnificent and quite memorable certainly, but the episode doesn't present him as sufficiently bastardly. Yes he puts Picard in danger, but he also puts himself in the same amount of danger.
Whilst his plan might have been a tad questionable, his intentions were out of a genuine desire to form a peaceful alliance and seeing no other way to break the language barrier between their species.
Edited by MGD107 on Dec 22nd 2020 at 4:27:41 AM

to Axonn
HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA