During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Father Daniel Flynn/Donald "Doc" O'Kelley as I previously stated.
Trying to recall my other nine candidates in the pipeline too.
Spoilers For The Game, Obviously
Right, so I just took a look at the Sackboy game's cutscenes, and there's a few things I wanna address before doing a proper EP on its villain, Vex.
Now, charm-wise, he's got that down to a tee. He's an over the top, cackling supervillain who's a joy to watch, as well as very well animated. He's also pretty good on the manipulative side, Having pretended to carelessly drop scrolls that lead to the MacGuffin's so that someone "Pure of heart" can gather them for him, as well as coming very close to winning at the end. He even shows up for The Stinger to say that he survived and will return someday.
The question I have is actually heinousness, oddly enough. Having the Sackpeople captured and enslaved to create a doomsday device that'll turn Craftworld into a nightmare realm that he'll rule like a god isn't exactly a minor crime. That said, it doesn't delve into the effects too much other than "If he fully activates it, were fucked", and when he's finally defeated, the effects of the machine apparently stopped with minimal consequences.
Does that sound too bad? Or am I good?
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Dec 17th 2020 at 1:28:13 AM
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Does sound quite evil although having played the Little Big Planet games it might not cross a line due to how it is played with the light hearted nature of the series. Either way, I'll hear you out if you make an EP.
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Dec 17th 2020 at 1:33:47 AM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"You know what?
It's worth a shot.
What's the Work?
Sackboy's Big Adventure is a spin-off of the LittleBigPlanet games released for the Playstation 5, detailing the titular Sackboy having to save his universe from going into chaos. Our villain?
Who is Vex?
The Large Ham Villainous Harlequin who plans to use a giant machine to bring Craftworld to chaos, and has a blast doing so.
What's he do?
From the first cutscene alone, he already ambushes Sackboy's home town and has everyone captured with a suction thingy, with Sackboy narrowly avoiding capture via a convenient nearby rocket ship. During the escape, however, Vex seemingly drops a scroll for his plans, something that Sackboy grabs on his way out. During it, he casually remarks about his plan: capture the creative Sackpeople, have them build a device called the Topsy-Turver, and bring Craftworld into chaos, with him as its ruler.
Eventually teaming up with your typical "Old, experienced mentor" character, Sackboy chases Vex everywhere, with him managing to escape every time. That being said, at first he doesn't seem that competent. He's certainly dangerous, but him dropping his plans, alongside his simplistic and easy boss fights, don't paint a very magnificent picture of him.
Then we get to halfway through the forth world, and suddenly his character changes drastically.
Before the fight even begins, he reveals the extent of his plan: he allowed the scrolls to be dropped on purpose, allowing Sackboy to grab the MacGuffins to "defeat" him, when in reality, they're actually the power source of the machine. Its also heavily implied that he dumbed down his fights in order to do so. He then sucks all of them from Sackboy, and then makes his escape. When you fight him at the end of the world, he puts up a much better fight than before. Eventually, you seemingly defeat him, and you and the mentor go back home...
Only to discover that not only had Vex survived, but he even activated the machine, thus throwing Craftworld into chaos. After making it to the Tree of Imagination, which he plans to replace with the Topsy-Turver, he then shoots the mentor with a blast of magic, knocking her out (She survives, of course, but she's out of commission for the rest of the final boss), and you face Vex in an epic final battle inside the machine, where you finally take him out, though not without telling you that, as a creator of nightmares, "Nightmares always come back".
And indeed, The Stinger has him show up one last time, stating that he'll see Sackboy "In his nightmares", letting out an evil laugh.
Is he Magnificent?
Charm: Nails it. This guy manages to steal the show in every scene he's in, and manages to come off as menacing in the process as well. Overall, he's a joy to watch.
Magnificence: Well, not many Littlebigplanet villains feign incompetence and intensionally hold back, so sure. Like, seriously, I honestly didn't see his plan coming. And while he is a bit panicked as he's defeated for the last time, he is exploding while his machine crumbles around him, and he later shows up fine, so I'll give it a pass
Is he a Bastard?
Now, here's where I was initially concerned at first. After all, not many MB's have "Slave labor for a machine that throws the world into chaos" on their list. That being said, the game also doesn't go into too much detail, with the Sackpeople looking more sad than outright despair filled, and the "chaos" iv'e mentioned mostly being just "Shit's floating everywhere". If Rex Dangervest can outright end the world and sell handily count, than this guy probably has a shot. That being said, the game portrays this as absolutely a bad thing, so he obviously still qualifies as a bastard.
Overall?
How's he looking?
BTW, no-one else in the series counts. The Negativitron is mostly a mindless brute, and Newton's a misguided idiot.
Vex
First for Richard E. Grant btw.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
to Vex, funny to get an MB from LBP as well.
Sorry for the delay on the writeup, I was watching the Smash Direct.
- Vex initially comes off as a goofy, Laughably Evil scoundrel before his true colors are revealed. Planning to use a machine to throw Craftworld into chaos, he kidnaps the residents of Loom and has them work on his machine, while purposely letting Sackboy escape. After seemingly dropping his plans continuously and having some underwhelming battles, he eventually reveals to Sackboy that he dropped them on purpose so that he can get them for him, stealing them all from him and engaging him in a much more intense battle. Even after seemingly been defeated, it's revealed that he escaped and activated the Topsy-Turver already, planning to replace the Tree of Imagination with it to become a god. Nearly winning in the end, Vex proves to be the Craftiest foe sackboy's faced yet.
By the way, while I was expecting Vex to steal the show, I didn't think he'd be this much of a good villain. Kinda reminds me of The Snatcher combined with King Boo with a bit of Oogie Boogie on the side ( None of those count, BTW, Snatcher's a bit of a Sore Loser, Oogie's a sadistic Serial Killer, and King Boo is King Boo).
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Dec 17th 2020 at 3:11:10 AM
Is this better?
- Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney – Dual Destinies: Aura Blackquill is the smart older sister of Simon Blackquill, who deals with Robotics at the Cosmos Space Center. Having lost her life partner, Metis Cykes to the Phantom, and her brother to a false conviction, Aura loses faith in the courts and decides to take justice into her own hands manipulating Apollo Justice and Chief Prosecutor Miles Edgeworth into having a retrial with the person she thought was responsible, Athena Cykes as the defendant, through a robot rebellion, having programmed several of her and Metis' robots into kidnapping several hostages, including Trucy Wright. Despite being proven wrong by Phoenix that Athena is the killer of Metis and Clay, her testimony about seeing the killer in the current case holding the lighter-gun in the opposite hand from where Athena's prints are, allows the protagonists to arrest the Phantom. She then gives herself up gracefully and releases the hostages, while her brother is absolved, just like Aura wanted.
Had to edit the writeup again because Aura has purple hair.
Edited by Klavice on Dec 17th 2020 at 9:41:58 AM

I agree with everything Bull said on the FS. If not for wanting to target the kids at the end of the video or having the pettiness to a lesser degree still carry over, Penguin could've maybe counted. Yeah, we still have the film version of Catwoman though, so there you go.
Gonna restart Flynn’s EP soon and make sure THIS TIME nothing is lost.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Dec 17th 2020 at 12:48:02 PM