During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
It's funny, that last line isn't on YMMV.Final Fantasy XIII.
It appears it was deleted by True Chaos last year who very infrequently posts here.
Edit: Yup no argument there, as you said that last line would be more suited to a CM writeup.
Edited by jjjj2 on Dec 12th 2020 at 12:41:57 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midAlso speaking of FF entries we okay if Ardyn gets a bit of a trim:
Current:
- Final Fantasy XV: Ardyn "Izunia", true name Ardyn Lucis Caelum, poses as a "man of no consequence", but is far older and far more devious than he initially seems. As the Chancellor of the Niflheim Empire, Ardyn arranges for the invasion and destruction of Lucis' capital city Insomnia, and later reveals his true colors by fatally stabbing the game's heroine Luna upon her summoning of Leviathan, resulting in greater damage and the deaths of nearly everyone in Altissia. With Luna's death, an affliction known as the Starscourge is allowed to run rampant, turning many into monstrous Daemons as the nights grow longer. Fixated on his chosen nemesis, Prince Noctis, Ardyn tricks him into almost murdering his best friend Prompto by making Noct see Prompto as Ardyn. Turning on Niflheim, Ardyn lets Daemons run rampant throughout the city, annihilating it and turning many of the people into Daemons themselves, leaving them in hideous pain. In addition, Ardyn reveals he is the one who taught Niflheim how to convert people to living weapons to begin with, kills Luna's brother Ravus when he finally had a change of heart and decided to help Noct and tricks Noct into being absorbed by the Crystal that is the source of power for the line of Lucis so Noct may arise as the Chosen King and Ardyn may destroy him. In the epilogue novel Dawn of the Future, Ardyn manages to outplay even the gods themselves, sacrificing his life to turn the power of the line of Lucis upon the tyrannical Bahamut. Rejected long ago by the very land he served and saved, Ardyn's endless, witty charm and ability to manipulate events in his own favor make him one of the most memorable villains in the Final Fantasy franchise.
Suggested:
- Final Fantasy XV: Chancellor Ardyn "Izunia", true name Ardyn Lucis Caelum, poses as a "man of no consequence", but is far older and far more devious than he initially seems. Working for the Niflheim Empire, Ardyn oversees the invasion of Lucis' capital city Insomnia, where he fatally stabs heroine Luna as she summons Leviathan and allowing the Starscourage affliction to run rampant and turning many of the residents of Altissia into monstrous Daemons. After nearly tricking his nemesis, Prince Noctis "Noct" Lucis Caelum, into killing his best friend, Ardyn turns on Niflheim, allowing the Daemons to assail their cities and converting others into more Daemons. Ardyn also reveals he taught Niflheim the technique to transform people into living weapons to begin with and puts in place a series of machinations to transform Noct into the "Chosen King" so Ardyn may destroy him. In the Dawn of the Future epilogue novel Ardyn manages to outplay even the gods themselves, sacrificing his life to turn the power of the line of Lucis upon the tyrannical Bahamut. Rejected long ago by the very land he served and saved, Ardyn's endless, witty charm and ability to manipulate events in his own favor make him one of the most memorable villains in the Final Fantasy franchise.
Thoughts?
Edited by 43110 on Dec 12th 2020 at 12:51:10 PM
Fun fact arrogant is defined as having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities. So having that in an mb entry unintentionally implies the character is a Smug Snake. Lol.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."- The Music Man: "Professor" Harold Hill is a Con Man who convinces towns into buying instruments and uniforms with the promise to form a boy's marching band before leaving with the money. When arriving in River City, Iowa, he starts his con by convincing the town that the recent pool table in the billiards parlor will corrupt the youth and the only way to save them is by forming the marching band. When Mayor Shinn or the school board try and ask for his credentials, Hill manages to distract them by leading them in Barbershop Quartets. He also manages to win good will of the librarian Marian Paroo after the band helps her brother Winthrop overcome his self-consciousness. The interactions in River City, as well as his relationship with Marian, start to convince Hill to abandon his life of crime and go legit. At the end of the musical, the good will the band brought convinces the townsfolk to overturn his arrest, and Hill manages to find his conscience because of the band.
Tell me what I should fix or whatnot
Approve big time of the Ardyn rewrite, 43!
Aight, time for some long overdue write-ups and a quote entry:
- Lock, Stock & Two Smoking Barrels: Big Chris is an enforcer and hired muscle to anyone willing to pay, renowned in the criminal world for not only his excellent success rate, but his honorable nature as well. Big Chris is hired by Harry the Hatchet to ensure his debtees, Eddie's group, pay up as the story starts, and Big Chris proceeds to not only swipe the cash from the Eddie, but also obtains two treasured rifles Harry has been hunting, all through nothing but precise timing and opportunity. Raising his son, Little Chris, in his ways to hopefully one day hand the "family business" over to the boy, Big Chris does anything he can to protect his son from outsiders, notably fooling the vicious Dog into lowering his guard before brutally killing him when he threatens Little Chris. After Harry is killed, Big Chris seizes the opportunity to swipe the man's fortune, set himself and his son up for life as kingpins themselves, then shows his respects to Eddie's group for their tenacity in facing Harry by letting them keep the priceless rifles.
- The Gentlemen: Michael "Mickey" Pearson is the charming ruler of an American marijuana empire, who has clawed his way up from humble beginnings to become one of the most successful crime lords in the business. An utterly respectable businessman who respects his allies and gives them all more than ample compensation for their services, Mickey has evaded all attempts by law enforcement and other criminal gangs to locate his pot farms through bribery and hiding in plain sight. When he seems to sell his million-dollar enterprise and retire in luxury, Mickey dances out of reach of the many slimy and violent crooks he comes up against, before ultimately outwitting the treacherous Matthew and reestablishing himself himself to remain in the crime game. With a deep love for his wife, a genuine friendship with his right-hand, and a swaggering ruthlessness to every situation he faces, Mickey ends the film in triumph over all those who sought to oppose him, firmly proving to all that he is "the king of the jungle."
- The Man from U.N.C.L.E.: Napoleon Solo is a charismatic, lovable Gentleman Thief turned the best agent in the American government, who works off his criminal debt by taking down threats far worse than himself, and all while lining his own pockets and having fun the whole way. Introduced outsmarting Russian superspy Illya Kuryakin using nothing but his surroundings and his own gadgets, Solo is afterwards grudgingly teamed up with Kuryakin to take down the villainous Victoria Vinciguerra. Effortlessly seducing Victoria herself even amidst her suspicions and playfully trolling Kuryakin at every possible turn, Solo faces even drugging, capture, and torture at the hands of Nazis with wit and joviality. When Victoria seemingly escapes and has all but one, Solo uses his killing of her husband to bait the woman into stalling her escape in time for Solo's allies to kill her and end her scheme, after which Solo solidifies his budding friendship with Kuryakin by revealing he recovered the man's valued watch after it was lost.
- Lilo And Stitch: Cobra Bubbles is a stern, unflappable agent of a mysterious organization that deals in extraterrestrial affairs, and masks his true colors beneath a public guise of social work. Spending the first film concerned for young Lilo's safety and astutely picking out all the ways she's being neglected, Cobra eventually works to keep her family together by using aliens' love for rules to keep Stitch free from capture and reunited with Lilo. Having once convinced an entire invading alien force to spare Earth via lying that insects were an endangered species, Cobra also sets a solid trap for the diabolical Hamsterviel in the sequel, almost destroying the villain even at the cost of endangering Stitch's fellow experiments. Cobra's ruthlessness and ingenuity continues into the television series, where he utilizes the experiments as espionage tools and even schemes to keep the public unaware of an approaching apocalypse so as to preserve peace while he spirits away key people to safety. Always cool and rarely caught off-guard, Cobra stood out in the zany cast as a deadly serious protector of Earth.
43: Speaking of quotes, I noticed that the page quote for Live-Action TV is also still on Magnificent Bastard. So I went ahead and removed it from Magnificent Bastard Quotes. I hope you don't mind.
Edited by Bullman on Dec 12th 2020 at 1:51:25 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadAnother unapproved Magnificent Bastard wick I found, this time on the Awesome subpage for Joker (2019):
- After his little celebratory dance, the two cops from earlier spot him and proceed to chase him around the city. Once they get to the subway train filled with clown rioters, everything starts to work out in Arthur's favor and although still an Axe-Crazy Smug Snake at his core, in this scene, he starts to show shades of the Magnificent Bastard he will one day become. He swipes a clown mask from a random guy, who shoves him into another whose counterattack accidentally hits the one who shoved Arthur, sparking a huge fistfight that buys Arthur some time. When the cops attempt to brandish their guns to cow the crowd and possibly fire at Arthur, one of them ends up in a struggle with a rioter that ends with an accidental gunshot, prompting the entire clown mob to lunge at the duo and give them a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown. Victorious, Arthur walks right up to the downed cops and dances right in front of them, before leaving the station unscathed.
As should be no surprise to those who've seen the film, Arthur doesn't really count as a Magnificent Bastard. He lacks the amount of cunning, mostly gets away thanks to sheer luck, is portrayed more as a victim of society and his own neuroses than someone who's in control of any given situation. I changed the wick and linked to the thread in my edit reason.
Cool, I'll add whatever potholes come to mind and put it at Magnificent Bastard Final Fantasy but it's over 200 words so mir and Imp can add more or change them if they'd like.
Edited by 43110 on Dec 12th 2020 at 5:29:00 AM

Its fine. We dont need to add every detail.
Btw I know I asked this. Could we just cut or rewrite the last line from Galeth's entry. The whole thing is off for an mb entries and makes him sound like a prick. The rest of the entry is fine as is.
Edited by miraculous on Dec 12th 2020 at 9:27:03 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."