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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#32801: Dec 9th 2020 at 12:32:13 PM

[up][up] Oh my god, please let there be one that exists!

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#32802: Dec 9th 2020 at 12:50:25 PM

[tup] to Mr. Knight

43: What about my proposed write up for Cecil two pages back?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#32803: Dec 9th 2020 at 1:33:09 PM

Oh sorry missed that—busy day! I like it!

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#32804: Dec 9th 2020 at 1:38:31 PM

Could you add it to the sandboxes / drafts for him since he can't edit it himself ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#32805: Dec 9th 2020 at 1:46:01 PM

I completely understand. Great. But yeah as Mir said I can't edit, so could you please add it to drafts?

Edited by MGD107 on Dec 9th 2020 at 1:46:26 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#32806: Dec 9th 2020 at 1:51:16 PM

Sorry slipped my mind! I'll do it after work buddy!

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#32809: Dec 9th 2020 at 4:17:41 PM

ALRIGHT LET'S FUCKING DO THIS

What's the work?

Merlin (1998) is a classic 3-hour adaptation of Arthurian literature starring none other than the sorcerer Merlin himself. It has certainly has that '90s Hallmark production value and cheese, but that script was pretty nice. Using Merin's birth as a starting point, it goes through the whole main "points" of Arthurian Legend: Vortigen and Uther, Arthur's rise, to Mordred's treachery, and finally Arthur's death with Merlin tying up loose ends.

Who is the candidate? The character’s actions?

Queen Mab of the Old Ways, the Mistress of Magic, is a Pagan goddess who is seeing the rise of Christianity slowly dwindle away her race of faes, including herself and her counterpart, the Lady of the Lake. The film starts with her imploring Nimue into joining her cause to keep the Old Ways, and therefore each other, alive. When refused, Mab brushes her off, constructing her plan to eradicate Christianity and restore mankind's belief in the Old Ways so that she and her world do not disappear forever. So, she kicks off her agenda by siring a (half-human) descendant who she believes will lead his fellow men back to the Old Ways.

Guess who? .... [points at title] Duh.

Merlin is left in the care of his aunt Ambrosia. When he grows into a young man and discovers his magical talent, Mab returns for him with her closest disciple, Frick, to help train her son to be a grand wizard in accordance to her plan. However, Merlin grows homesick, unable to really put his heart into learning magic, and secretly departs. Mab, in an attempt to find him, goes to Ambrosia's residence, demands her compliance, and uses her signature "magic scream" to teach her a lesson... although, it proves enough to actually kill Ambrosia. Judging from Mab looking around after the deed is done and asking what happened, it's implied she didn't mean to actually kill her. Regardless, Merlin soon arrives. Mab tries to brush all that off, including his inability to striek her. He then vows to never use magic again for any purpose other than defeating her.

Later in Merlin's life, Mab resurfaces and shifts tactics, manipulating the tyrannical king Vortigen into a war with King Uther Pendragon's armies. Although he eventually fails, lacking the full power to win as an atheist (go figure), and Merlin slays him on the battlefield, leaving Mab without a mortal to represent her once more.

Not a problem though. Mab is quick to concoct another scheme and sways the victorious Pendragon into lusting after another man's wife, leading to yet another war. Merlin reluctantly agrees to help Uther gain the wedded woman's affections but only in return for this King's first born son (Arthur) who Merlin later trains to be a just and righteous man.

Arthur leads a Christian kingdom much to Mab's dismay. But yet again, she has a pla. Mab turns to his long lost half-sister Morgan le Fay born from Arthur's mother's first marriage. Morgan is easily persuaded to aid Mab as she is born with a facial deformity which leads her to feel somewhat insecure. Morgan strikes a deal with Mab to serve her in exchange for beauty.

After being beautified Mab sends Morgan to seduce and sleep with her half-brother Arthur. From their union comes a son; Mordred who goes on to be Mab's most formidable pawn. Morgan however does not wish to see her son be used for such purposes and attempts to stop the dying goddess - due to her disobedience Mab kills her, growing somewhat tired of mortals abandoning her.

Mordred brings war to Camelot and Arthur. In the battle's climax, Mordred and Arthur slay one another, leaving Mab without a champion to her cause. The final confrontation occurs, leading to a Wizard Duel. Even at her weakest, Mab is still a goddess and far too powerful for Merlin to defeat conventionally.

Ultimately, Merlin realizes that with so few left to fuel belief in Mab's race, he determines the one true way to finish Mab is to simply cease believing in her. In what can described as a heroic use of Exit Villain, Stage Left, Merlin takes his mortal followers and leaves the site of the final battle, ignoring her final desperate cries. Finally forgotten, Mab fades to dust, joining her sister Nimue and the others of the "Old Ways": in death.

Magnificent (Charming, Charismatic, Intelligence, etc.)? Why or why not?

She may have a creepy rasp to her voice, but Mab's actress players the character masterfully, portraying a chilling combination of tragedy, mystique, desperation, and coolness the Queen of the Old Ways deserves.

She's basically got a plan from start to finish. Losing Merlin means she'll manipulate someone else into sustaining the Old Ways. Losing Vortigen means she'll move on to the next, Uther. When Arthur champions Christianity, eh, no big deal. She'll just make sure he dies somehow and knock him off the board. Cue Mordred. On that note, Mab is a master manipulator; at the first instance of Merlin expressing no desire to learn magic, Mab calmly states it's his destiny, using other words as well as antics with her perky minion Frisk to lure Merlin into learning magic in her keep. Mab lures Morgan le Fay to her side by taking advantage of the ostracism Morgan faced during her defomority, ultimately gaining Mordred as a pawn and indirectly causing Arthur's downfall.

One good trick in particular? She heals Nimue's scars and enchants an space for her and Merlin to live happily together within — all to keep Merlin out of the war between Arthur and Mordred. And it's super effective.

Interestingly enough, despite her motives coming from a place of desperation, Mab manages to stay gracefully cool the whole way, including during her death. Sure, she calls out to Frik and Merlin to stop their attempts to forget her, but it never approaches the kicking-and-screaming-"NOTICE ME RAAAAAAAAAH!" kind of Villainous Breakdown. Check it out for yourselves.

If anything that's a strike against her, it's Mab's reaction to Ambrosia near the beginning. She goes full '90s villain "You dare defy me?!" trying to impose her authority upon the old woman. Ambrosia has none of that, getting the last word in as she passes on after Mab's screech. That said, she claims she didn't mean to kill her and passes it off as a mere "casualty of war" in her ambition to keep her kind alive. You be the judge.

Bastard? Not too much of one?

Used and manipulated lots of people. A particularly cruel moment occurred when Mab readies Mordred to begin the downfall of Arthur's Christian kingdom, and Morgan Le Fay plans to stop her from taking him. Mab just uses her magic to throw her down hard onto stone steps, startling Frik. Yet, all she does is in service to ensure the future of herself and her kind. Her goals and motivation are completely understandable, and if she had to sacrifice her morals and play some pawns in the process (including her own child Merlin), so be it.

Mab takes also Frik's magic, leaving him to wander the world as a powerless gnome, with his true love dead, having nothing but his misery and pain, unable to do anything about it. That sounds super dickish, but if her words are to be believed? That's what he wanted. Can't fault for that, can we?

And as crazy as it sounds, Mab admits to her sister Nimue that she still loved the very son she gave birth to... to an extent.

Competition?

Beyond Merlin himself, who is a Guile Hero? Not really. She's steps ahead of everyone up and until the climax when Merlin figures out the best option to defeat the all-powerful Mab is... to just ignore her. Hey, not every fight needs to be win with gambits and brute force.

Conclusion?

What say?

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#32812: Dec 9th 2020 at 4:34:35 PM

[tdown] from me, for the same reason I downvoted Haruko. I will understand if others disagree.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#32814: Dec 9th 2020 at 4:36:51 PM

[up][up] And what reason would that be?

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#32815: Dec 9th 2020 at 4:38:43 PM

Well I looked at Mab's two Villainous Breakdowns and I thought they were pretty bad (especially the first one). I felt the same thing about Haruko.

Edited by jjjj2 on Dec 9th 2020 at 7:38:59 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#32819: Dec 9th 2020 at 5:27:30 PM

Abstain on Mab.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#32820: Dec 9th 2020 at 5:47:23 PM

Alright, I'll look into this one later. erazor clearly put a lot of work into this and I'd like to see a more definitive conclusion than a bunch of abstains. Her moments of anger might kill it but Haruko is listed on the trope, granted, she also quite gracefully and quickly composes herself from her two such moments. This seems similar, I just wanna be sure she conducts herself with the overall tone we'd want of an MB.

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#32821: Dec 9th 2020 at 5:53:35 PM

I... generally recall Mab being a Smug Snake. Haven't watched in a while so don't quote me on that but I don't remember her being MB material.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#32822: Dec 9th 2020 at 5:56:09 PM

I'll give a tentative [tup] to Mab.

Okay so there is this one character that I’ve been thinking about and I’ve decided that I felt that she at least deserves an EP. She’s from BioShock 2 so lets talk about it.

What’s The Work?

BioShock 2 is a video game that serves as a sequel to the original BioShock. The premise takes place in 1968 in the hidden underwater city called Rapture, where players control the Big Daddy where he and his daughter Elenor Lamb try to escape from the chaotic city fighting anyone who stands in their way one of which happens to be Elenor’s mother, Sofia Lamb.

Who Is She? What Has She Done?

Sofia Lamb is the Big Bad of Bioshock 2 who was sent to Rapture by Andrew Ryan due to the city’s need for a psychiatrist. Lamb would use her position to persuade many people in Rapture into supporting her ideology of sacrificing individual free will for the greater good of collectivism creating a cult that supports her ideology called the Rapture Family.

Ryan learned of Lamb’s growing influence in Rapture and had her and her followers arrested and imprisoned Persephone Penal Colony. However this was exactly what Lamb want as she would become a martyr within Rapture and gain even more followers within the prison converting all the inmates and guards there into her own army.

Lamb would also hand over her daughter that she raised to support her ideology under the care of one of her followers, Grace Holloway, in Pauper’s Drop so that her ideology and following will still remain strong and enduring and after escaping prison Lamb would take Elenor back, by hypnotizing Subject Delta, a Big Daddy, into luring Elenor, who was converted into a little sister, back to Lamb before she commands Delta to kill himself to tie up lose ends.

Lamb would then travel back to Persephone during the Civil War between Andrew Ryan and Atlas (aka Frank Fontaine) and wait until the war would end and the two would kill each other before, during which she would recruit even more people into supporting her ideology, such as Gilbert Alexander, so that she would be able to take control over Rapture once Ryan and Atlas are both dead.

Ruling over Rapture Lamb would learn of Fontaine’s program of genetic tampering that had created Jack's conditioning. Using this as inspiration to create an intellect that would be completely selfless and unerringly good while having no free will of their own, Lamb would give her subject massive doses of ADAM, in the hopes to place all the genius of Rapture's citizens through the transfer of memories stored in ADAM into them.

Gilbert Alexander was her first subject, however Gilbert was driven insane with the experiment and was severely mutated, where Lamb would realize that the only person that could contain all the ADAM of Rapture was a Little Sister, like Elenor, due to their physical adaptation of the substance. Since the other Little Sister were too old to work for her plans, Lamb would create the Big Sisters and would send them up to the surface to abduct young girls and bring them to Rapture to be converted into new Little Sisters.

When Subject Delta was revived and trying to escape Rapture along with Elenor while also rescuing Little Sisters along the way Lamb sends her forces, Splicers and Big Sisters, to stop Delta while also trying to persuade Delta to support her beliefs and philosophy, while also intimidating Delta should he persist in trying to stop her.

Delta would come across several of Lamb’s followers and is given the option to either kill them or spare them, eventually traveling to Dionysus Park where Lamb would help Delta get to Stanley Poole and gives him the choice to either spare him or kill him as payback for what he did to Delta and Elenor having known all along that Stanley betrayed Lamb.

Lamb was also aware that Mark Metzler had arrive to Rapture to rescue his daughter where, Lamb would manipulate him into joining her side by giving him a choice: be killed by Rapture Family or become a Big Daddy and be bonded to his daughter, with Mark choosing the latter, becoming a Big Daddy and battling Delta.

As Delta comes closer to Persephone, Lamb would lay a trap for Delta by luring him to luring him to the decontamination chamber where Delta would watch as Lamb non-fatally smothers Elenor while she’s still asleep, stopping her heart enough to serve their connection so that Lamb can put Elenor through her procedure to become “The People’s Daughter”.

However Elenor would find a way to escape and free Delta to which Lamb decides to blow up Rapture when she realizes that her plans to make the city her Utopia has failed having her followers plant explosive charges, while figuring that Sinclair has been helping Delta and Elenor behind her back to which she punishes Sinclair by converting him into a Big Daddy and forcing him to fight Delta.

As Lamb activates to explosives to blow up Rapture, Delta and Elenor would escape the destroyed city with in Sinclair's escape pod. Lamb would also sneak in and join Delta Elenor in the escape pod to which depending on the players’ previous action Delta and Elenor can decide either to kill her or spare her.

Is She Intelligent? Is She Charismatic?

As a well-known psychiatrist, Lamb has proven herself to be extremely brilliant, charismatic, and manipulative having manipulated hundreds of people into becoming her fanatical supporters, while also orchestrating various events that always keeps her one step ahead from her opponents and eventually gain control of Rapture.

Even when Lamb faces numerous obstacle, Lamb never ever looses her cool and calm and would instead always figure out a way for them to work in her favor and actually have them benefit her plans, such as getting sentences to prison as an opportunity to get even more people to join her cause and escaping with relative ease. Even when Delta gets interfering with her plan, Lamb simply just goes into Tranquil Fury which makes her all the more formidable

What’s the Competition Like?

Lamb is one of the smartest and most manipulative antagonists in the series, with the only ones coming close to her brilliance and charm are Frank Fontaine and the Lutees Twins. However Frank Fontaine might be too evil for this trope given that he is a Complete Monster and suffers a pretty bad Villainous Breakdown at the end, while The Lutees are already approved as this.

Of course Lamb can still stand out from the Lutees in that Lamb is just a regular human with only her wit and brilliant mind while the Lutees do have weird supernatural powers. Also, Lamb has the role as traditional Big Bad while the Lutees are Creepy Good (albeit one that’s still very unscrupulous and callous enough to still count).

Is She a Bitch? Is She Too Much of a Bitch?

Lamb has brainwashed and manipulates hundreds of people into supporting her communist ideology, hypnotizes a Big Daddy to kill himself, subjects Gilbert to experiments that drives him insane, has kidnapped children from the surface to convert into Little Sisters, is willing to have her own followers and even her own daughter kill when they go against her, even turning Sinclair into a Big Daddy and forcing him to fight Delta, and even tries to blow up Rapture despite many people, including her own followers, still inside the city, so yeah Lamb is more than enough of a bitch to be consider.

That said she does have qualities to counterbalance her crimes and prevents her from not being to much of a bitch to be disqualified. First off she genuinely believes in that her ideology to abandon free individualism in favor of collectivism is a just cause which originated when she witnessed her friends getting killed in Hiroshima when Capitalist America dropped the atomic bomb there.

Secondly while Lamb is definitely ruthless in her actions she never shows herself to be sadistic with everything that she has done, from having Delta kill himself to forcibly converting Sinclair and having him fight Delta are all done to serve a purpose to stop Delta from foiling her plans to make a better world, and does give Delta a Pet the Dog moment by letting him kill Stanley Poole for what he did to to him and Elenor, and tries her best to keep Elenor alive and only deciding to kill when Elenor makes it clear she won’t support Lamb’s ideology.

Even her decision to blow up Rapture is made not in any cowardice but to rid herself of her enemies so that cannot interfere with her future plans to spread her ideology to the rest of the world.

Final Verdict?

I’ll leave for you guys.

I mean Lamb is bad but I think that she isn't too bad to not count and there is more emphasis on her planning. Plus she does genuinely believe that her actions and ideology are for the greater good

Edited by G-Editor on Dec 9th 2020 at 4:01:46 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#32823: Dec 9th 2020 at 5:59:06 PM

TBH I want to say yes to Mab. I loved that mini and from memory, Mab makes an impression.

I'm...not sure on Lamb. She's bad from memory....like utterly vile. Not saying no, but...

Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 9th 2020 at 5:59:18 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#32824: Dec 9th 2020 at 5:59:07 PM

Isn't she a psychopathic egomaniac made out to be just as detestable and cruel as Ryan under all of her talk?

One thing I'm kinda wondering with Mab? Are these breakdowns truly undignifying or are they more moments of hammy villain fun? Schwarzwald is an MB because he's been driven off the brink by the secrets of Amnesia and you could technically say he's in a perpetual Villainous Breakdown, he just operates so charismatically and remains intelligent that it doesn't actually screw his capabilities.

Edited by 43110 on Dec 9th 2020 at 9:01:48 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#32825: Dec 9th 2020 at 6:00:44 PM

Abstain on Lamb.


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