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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#31851: Nov 27th 2020 at 1:39:35 PM

[tup] Mickey, from the movie that none of my friends liked, except me.

It's Spooky Month!
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#31853: Nov 27th 2020 at 1:45:51 PM

@Ravok Possible that Raymond can count too or does he take lead from Mickey way too much?

Also, I thought Dry Eye wasn’t Lord George’s nephew. Either way it’s confusing.

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#31854: Nov 27th 2020 at 1:48:07 PM

Yes to Mickey.

I've had Zach and Avi from Ritchie's worst film on my watchlist for ages now, although I guess it kinda depends whether you interpret them as a Split Personality of the main character or not.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#31855: Nov 27th 2020 at 1:49:24 PM

Yes to Mickey, Patrick, Cain, Adler, and Perseus.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#31856: Nov 27th 2020 at 1:49:25 PM

Ah I think a split personality could still count ?

Mind going in more detail ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#31857: Nov 27th 2020 at 1:50:58 PM

I'm fine with it... moral agency isn't a big deal here so as long as the split is treated as its own person.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#31858: Nov 27th 2020 at 1:54:32 PM

[tup] Cain, Adler, Perseus, and Mickey.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#31859: Nov 27th 2020 at 1:56:18 PM

[tup] Patrick, Cain, Adler, Perseus and Mickey

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#31860: Nov 27th 2020 at 1:58:28 PM

The whole plot is mired in a rather esoteric form of philosophy, revolving around a rejection of the ego to achieve enlightenment, shoved into an otherwise typical Guy Ritchie-style plot with flashy gangsters and assassins in a Gambit Pile Up.

Zach and Avi are two enigmatic gangsters teaching the main character, Jake, throughout the film until they are revealed at the very end to have either been Jake's cellmates or different aspects of Jake himself ("a chess player only gets stronger by playing a stronger opponent"). It's pretty weird.

Edited by Morgenthaler on Nov 27th 2020 at 2:07:53 AM

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#31861: Nov 27th 2020 at 2:00:02 PM

Well at long as their plans are clear and easy enough to follow I don't think them being either is a bar.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#31862: Nov 27th 2020 at 2:01:34 PM

Might as well get this one out of the way, since I've got plenty of college work this weekend.

  • Call of Duty: Black Ops Cold War:
    • CIA agent Russell Adler is the head of a black ops squad out to stop Perseus’ plan at all costs. Willing to murder and torture to stop the Soviets from activating nukes across Europe, Adler has Perseus’ severely wounded second-in-command implanted with false memories and renamed “Bell” to be used to track down Perseus. Mentally torturing Bell into reliving a series of distorted memories once time’s running out, should Bell side with Adler and stop Perseus, Adler summons Bell to personally kill them to tie up loose ends. Even if Bell betrays Adler and has the Soviets gun him and his squad down, Adler shows defiance against Bell even when he’s on the verge of death.
    • “Perseus” is a rogue Soviet Union agent who seeks to increase his country’s power. Stealing the detonation codes for Operation Greenlight, which will involve initiating a series of American neuron bombs planted in European soil, Perseus plans to activate the bombs and kill millions, with America taking the brunt of the blame while the SU will rise as a global superpower. Perseus is able to remain hidden throughout the game, getting away with killing his own scientists after they successfully reverse engineer the bombs to activate upon his command. Anticipating his former associate Bell regaining their memories, Perseus launches a successful ambush against Adler’s men should Bell choose to side with the Soviets, even allowing his former comrade to activate the bombs and secure victory.

It's Spooky Month!
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#31863: Nov 27th 2020 at 2:04:25 PM

Thanks man, I don't think those are gonna be too contentious so the entries are appreciated!

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#31864: Nov 27th 2020 at 2:18:58 PM

I've been on a James Bond kick recently, and I'm curious; did the original version of Ernst Stavro Blofeld ever come up for discussion? I know the reboot's version isn't a contender by a country mile, but the original could be pretty slick.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#31865: Nov 27th 2020 at 2:20:16 PM

I proposed him for CM and it's...a tough sell for MB. Blofeld in the original, maybe, but he grows increasingly petty and far less magnificent as it goes on to the point he's a shell of his old self.

Like targeting Tracy...

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#31866: Nov 27th 2020 at 2:30:29 PM

I gotta say no to the OG, iconic as he is he's a nasty, sadistic bastard and unfortunately his Overarching Villain status in that franchise means he's got ample time to show off why the series is the troper namer for Bond Villain Stupidity and frequently indulges in tormenting Bond and his allies just for the fun of it. Goldfinger is probably the closest the series comes to a crossover and he's screwed by the nastiness with which his greed is played and a creepy tendency to target women in particular when doling out Cruel and Unusual Deaths.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#31867: Nov 27th 2020 at 2:32:32 PM

Yeah, I agree that even the original Blofeld is not this based on how later movies treated his character after his first appearance (and even then, it was tenuous), even if Tracy was only shot because he was having Bunt aim at Bond and she missed. By the time For Your Eyes Only came, he was totally broken physically and mentally.

Yeah, Goldfinger is also a No Sale for really having no true class. Even his constant cheating at things is pretty childish and immature, so there.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 27th 2020 at 2:38:06 AM

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#31868: Nov 27th 2020 at 2:34:28 PM

Wow, they're coming in fast today. [tup] for Mickey.

As for Blofeld, while smart and somewhat charming he's ultimately too petty and if For Your Eyes Only Blofeld is real, a massive coward.

Goldfinger is definitely a lot closer but also probably falls short I feel.

Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Nov 27th 2020 at 2:35:05 AM

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#31869: Nov 27th 2020 at 2:46:53 PM

Yeah pretty much. Maybe if it was just some of the earlier films but a mix of some stupider, petty and cowardly moments means thats a no. Though funnigly enough he did give rise to many characters who do count like Giovanni

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#31870: Nov 27th 2020 at 2:50:42 PM

Alas. Oh, well; great villain nonetheless. It's funny; given the Cartoonish Supervillainy characteristic of Bond villains, you'd think there'd be a crossover or two, and I will agree that Goldfinger's one of those mildly frustrating near-crossovers.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#31872: Nov 27th 2020 at 2:53:13 PM

Would Parker count?

I remeber hearing about that film and wondered if he'd keep. Has anyone else seen it?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#31873: Nov 27th 2020 at 2:53:25 PM

Honestly when we revisted Goldfinger after Lighty rewatched it I went from "Personally I'd say no" to "This guy gets fucking gross at times and I want him nowhere near the list." Unfortunately you'll find with the Bond monsters they are so over-the-top and in your face about their villainy that it's kind of eclipsing everything else about them and makes it difficult to have anything you can call magnificent, since their charm tends to only exist by virtue of how fun how bad they are is and their intelligence tends to be secondary.

[up] No but I'm down for a Jason Statham keeper!

Edited by 43110 on Nov 27th 2020 at 5:53:57 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#31874: Nov 27th 2020 at 2:54:08 PM

I'm guessing Blofeld does nothing of worth in the unofficial Never Say Never Again. Which I haven't seen.

[up] We do have his character from Fast and the Furious.

Edited by Bullman on Nov 27th 2020 at 4:57:00 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#31875: Nov 27th 2020 at 2:54:59 PM

[tup] to Mickey.

And late but we'll deserved [tup] to Argost....By God the memories that brought back

I've also rewatched the V for vendetta film, I think Film V is a rock solid keep and will work on that.

And found this on the Ymmv for Shock Treatment.

"Magnificent Bastard: Farley Flavors. In the end he doesn't get Janet, but he gets the good guys tossed out of the taping and proceeds to successfully turn his charms on the ambitious Macy and save the show, and it's safe to assume his media empire will continue to grow"

Only saw this clip from the film (https://youtu.be/vmDvXS1nVQg) Wich makes him look a bit too petty(Song rocks tho), but wether or not there's a case to be made this seems to be unapproved, so I wanted to report it to be cut(Still can't edit)

Bow to the Prototype

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