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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#3151: Jul 31st 2018 at 5:21:58 AM

Slade was voted down. But yes to Chase

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3153: Jul 31st 2018 at 5:36:42 AM

[tup] Chase.

I'm going to start writing some Red Vs Blue effort posts later today. One of my propositions will be another Complete Monster crossover and my first post will be on a villain whom I find very complicated.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#3154: Jul 31st 2018 at 6:55:16 AM

Write up time!

Sonic Adventure 2: Shadow the Hedgehog was an Ultimate Lifeform that lost his best friend Maria and his creator Dr Gerald Robotnik when they were killed by the government. Imprisoned but eventually released by Gerald’s grandson Dr Eggman, Shadow enacted a plan to destroy all of humanity as revenge. Playing on Eggman’s ego and his grandfather’s legacy, Shadow manipulated the doctor into gathering Chaos Emeralds, misdirecting everyone into thinking it was for powering a Kill Sat. This diverted everyone’s attention from his real plan of performing a Colony Drop. He even manages to expose Rouge as a government agent. Shadow’s plan is only foiled because Amy Rose helps him remember Maria’s final request for Shadow to protect the people of Earth and so he decides to help stop jis own scheme, almost sacrificing himself. Shadow, in his first appearance, was as devious as Sonic villains come and even as a hero is one of the franchise’s most competent characters.

Word Count: 156

Knack: Katrina is Viktor’s right hand woman, both seeking to open a locked door containing countless Massive Relics that they want to use to revolutionise the world. Katrina is the brains of the operation, coming up with just about all the strategies. Believing Knack to be the key, she suggests Vitor kidnaps him. When that doesn’t work, they attempt to coerce Knack and his friends and when that also doesn’t work Katrina suggests just letting Knack and crew investigate the door themselves, correctly predicting they’d also be fascinated by it. Later managing to bug a memento of kid sidekick Lucas, Katrina is able to ascertain where the real key is, managing to snatch it from right under the heroes’ noses. Even after being defeated and reforming Katrina creates her own successful company focused on private security. Almost always one step ahead, Katrina was Knack’s most likable and devious antagonist.

Word Count: 148

Jak X: Combat Racing: Rayn is the daughter of Krew and far more charming and clever than he ever was. Enacting her deceased father’s plan to flush out rival gangster Mizo and take his assets by winning a racing bet, Rayn poisons Jak and friends, faking her own poisoning to gain their trust. Only by winning the racing tournament will they be given the antidote. Playing the part of the innocent daughter, Rayn never breaks character, even as Ashelin – the only person to doubt Rayn - threatens her. Carefully stringing along the heroes by exposing parts of Krew’s plan while acting surprised, Rayn even decides to race and put herself in harm’s way to ensure nothing is left to chance. After Mizo is defeated, she fulfils her part of the bargain, providing the antidote to the poison. She also leaves behind a message from Krew to come clean to everyone and as a new crime boss orders that Jak and the others – whom she now considers friends – are not to be harmed. Winning and getting away with everything, Rayn is one of the series’ most affable and cunning scoundrels.

Word Count: 185

I’ll let 43110 tinker with these, add pot holes and make them look good. That’s stuff I’m not great at.

Shall I just pop these in the MB drafts?

Edited by PolarPhantom on Jul 31st 2018 at 2:55:05 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#3155: Jul 31st 2018 at 7:24:03 AM

[tup]chase

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#3156: Jul 31st 2018 at 8:27:22 AM

My next 40K post...I give you: Trazyn the Infinite.

Who is Trazyn?

"Dear Lady, let me express my fulsome appreciation for your most generous gift. It is so very rare to discover another of my own kind that appreciates my work, therefore to find understanding amongst a member of another race is nothing short of a revelation. I realise that you briefly trod my galleries, but the fact that you spotted in so short a time that my Acabrius War collection was lacking three regiments of Catachan warriors reveals that you truly have a collector's eye for detail. And to send five regiments! Such generosity will allow me to weed out and replace a few of the more substandard pieces in my collection. If I might level a minor criticism, the instructions issued to your gift were manifestly not as clear as you thought, as most of them had to be forcibly restrained — sadly it seems that the lower orders will always behave like an army of invasion, whether that be their purpose or not. However, this is a minor complaint and seems almost churlish under the circumstances, so please allow me to repay your gift with one of my own. Accompanying this message is the Hyperstone Maze, one of a series of Tesseract Labyrinths constructed at the height of the Charnovokh Dynasty. It is a trinket really, only of interest to scholars such as you and I, but I trust you will find it amusing — assuming you have the wit to escape its clutches, of course."

That is our man Trazyn. Trazyn is a Necron. Basically, an ancient cyborg once programmed to destroy all life for the glory of the Tomb Kings, who fought evil star gods. Now, the Necrons achieved a way out of their programming and some have reestablished their old domains. Trazyn is one of them, a preserver of history, artifacts and events who loves his gigantic collection. His main goal is to take priceless historical artifacts and save them from the flames of war, and he usually uses catspaws, or wars to do so. In other words, the guy will deliver a hard left when you think he's going right.

Oh, he also has a habit of sending Necron agents out to do his work for him, while he operates in the shadows before pulling off his real goals. And he is a relentless and incorrigible troll. Like, to the point he's banned from the Necron throne world and waltzes in whenever he feels like it anyways. He also tends to use other Necron Lords as his body doubles....without warning them first. One time? He told the warrior Vulkan He'stan he had the Song of Entropy in order to lure him into a ten year war with the Necrons, only to go "just kidding, I don't!" all so he could steal Vulkan's great spear Vulkan gave it to him, pointy end first Trazyn just jumped to a new body. He once invaded an imperial world to steal a C'tan (those stargods) shard...prompting a VERY pissed group of imperials to pursue him....and Trazyn just substituted a fellow Necron for himself to get his ass kicked instead.

Yeah, you get the idea. He even helped the good guys at the Fall of Cadia so he could try to get Abaddon the Despoiler added to his collection. Didn't work, but...he decided to take Cadia's Lord Castellan Creed as a swell consolation prize.

Is he charming? Charismatic? A good planner?

Trazyn's a joy. As you can see above, he has a way with words, and he's a really delightful fellow. Unlike many Necrons, he's a gentleman, an explorer, a scholar, a collector...and he manipulates people and events just ever so wonderfully. Really, not much else I can add here. He's seemingly incapable of holding grudges and always treats things with his trademark excellent humor while pulling off daring heists.

Is he a bastard? Too much?

He started a ten year war just to steal a guy's spear. He's a Necron, and manipulating people, wiping out large swaths of others? That's part of the play. He also has a habit of using his fellow Necron lords as decoys. and, y'know, 'collecting' people as he leaves them in hi eternal tableau. Yeah, Trazyn's a bad guy, but he's...honestly nowhere near as awful as a lot of 40K and he's so delightful and amusing. He's not wantonly sadistic or evil, he's no Chaos lunatic and he's got such a style to him, you can't help but love him.

Also worth noting his letter to Inspector Valeria? He really seemed to like her. Sadly, his letter probably resulted in another Inquisitor executing her for correspondence with xeno scum, but Trazyn didn't know this would happen and was quite sad.

Oh, and his reasoning for helping to defend Cadia? He thought trying to play hero would be fun for once.

Conclusion?

Oh, yes to trazyn the Infinite.

And this is maybe the only good thing Matt Ward ever wrote, because it really is hilarious:

"A war-torn city in the Ultramar system. The Ultramarines, aided by an Imperial Guard regiment led by Lord Castellan Ursarkar Creed, prepares to face an Ork incursion in a final battle. The Orks are numerous, but the Imperium has the upper hand, just barely, as Lord Creed's tactical genius has proven invaluable. As the Orks begin their final assault on the city, the Ultramarines ready their defenses. Creed, ever oddly silent, gazes intently at a large flagpole in the center of town, watching through binocs as the Orks' charge is funneled towards the center of the city. Suddenly, as the Orks near the square, the tip of a Baneblade's main gun can be seen coming around the flagpole. The great tank begins to emerge from behind the thin metal object, perfectly and impossibly concealed. It begins to move into its firing arc, and a great shout is heard from the Warboss down below, just barely carrying over the rest of the din. "CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-" Suddenly, the cry cuts off in confusion, as Creed spits out his cigar. Where the Baneblade once stood, there is air, thin air. Not a trace remains of the enormous tank. It has vanished completely. Then, gradually, a green, crackling, electrical rune appears hanging in the air where the Baneblade was. It extends gracefully, for its platonic geometric form. If Creed was given to poetry, he might even say it resembled a rose. But he knew better. A rage he had felt only once before began to boil deep within, and his cry shook the world as the Orkish tide began to hack his guardsmen and the Marines to pieces. "TRAAAAAAAAAAAAZYYYYYYYYN!"

Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 31st 2018 at 8:32:59 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#3157: Jul 31st 2018 at 8:46:24 AM

[tup] to Chase and Trazyn

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#3158: Jul 31st 2018 at 9:13:48 AM

Yes to Trazyn, Polar, they look good as are. I’ll just fix any grammar slips I find but otherwise leave them as you wrote them, good job smile

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#3159: Jul 31st 2018 at 10:25:08 AM

[tup]Trazyn

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#3160: Jul 31st 2018 at 12:36:31 PM

I was going to propose Chase myself eventually. [tup]For putting the BASTARD on the Magnificent.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#3161: Jul 31st 2018 at 12:40:16 PM

[tup] Chase and Trazyn, who's like a less evil and more likable Brainiac.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3162: Jul 31st 2018 at 12:50:14 PM

[tup] Trazyn.

Alright, this first Red Vs Blue candidate is the Director of Project Freelancer, and a very complicated baddy since he has two given motivations with a thin line of where one ends and where the other begins.

Also, I'm doing this in chronological order since there is an entire flashback arc about Project Freelancer.

Also, this dude is a major Walking Spoiler for the series. The details about his character reveal several critical plot twists about the true nature of the entire series and especially the truth about two of the main characters. You have been warned.

First, some much needed context?

Alright, so the series takes place in the Halo universe, and as such shares the story of the war between humans and the Covenant. As the UNSC fought against the aliens, multiple military projects were started to help find solutions. Project Freelancer was one of them.

Who is the Director?

Doctor Leonard Church was once a simple, if very intelligent, man, who had a doctorate in AI theory. His wife, Allison, was a soldier for the UNSC and they had a daughter. However, Allison went off to fight in the war and died in battle. Church felt guilty for not being able to fight in the war, as he wished to have made the sacrifice instead of his beloved wife.

Church eventually founded Project Freelancer, whom he served as the director of, with agents code named after states. The Director took in these soldiers and gave them a home at Freelancer to ensure loyalty. The goal of Project Freelancer was to research the use of implanting AIs into soldiers' heads to help them function in battle as well as run armor enhancements that the soldiers alone could not safely use. However, the UNSC only gave the Director the tools to create one "smart" AI, Alpha, which would be based on his own mind. As testing ground for his soldiers, the Director created simulation bases, using reject UNSC soldiers fighting fake "Red vs. Blue" battles that they believed were real (and of all the bad things the Director has done, the UNSC considered this completely legal).

The Director had a hard time finding suitable agent to test Alpha with, even with a ranking system. Of the highest ranked Freelancers on the Top 8 board, the highest was the Director's own daughter, code-named Carolina. The bottom three Freelancers were eventually dropped from the project, by which I mean stranded in an icy terrain. Eventually the Director's memories of Allison in Alpha created a flash clone based after Allison known as Beta. This gave the Director an idea: if a "smart" AI is based after a human mind, then it can be fractured like a human mind.

The Director decided to split the Alpha by placing him into unwinnable scenarios and forcing off portions of his personality. However, he didn't have the tools for that. A technology company known as Charon Industries had such tech that they would never give to Freelancer. The Director framed the soldiers illegally working as a security force for the company as an insurrection to motivate his agents into fighting them. The Director molded Beta into an agent code-named Texas and sent agents North Dakota, South Dakota, and Carolina on a mission to infiltrate an oil rig turned cryogenic research facility to steal data on where to find what he needed before secretly having Texas destroy the rig. However, South almost fucked up the mission, and as a result, North was chosen for eventual AI implantation instead of her. The Director did after all wanted to see how a pair of twins would act when one got an AI and the other did not.

The Director the authorized a sparring match between Texas and three other agents: York, Wyoming, and Maine. Tex kicked all three of their asses even ass they went up against her at the same time. The Director allowed the group of three to use ammo against Texas, which Wyoming and Maine eventually did much to the horror of York and the other agents watching. This led to York getting injured by a grenade while trying to defend Texas, and the Director chastised York's behavior to the other Freelancers as he didn't stay with his team. The Director stated that despite the breach in regulations, the battlefield has no rules, so anything is justified.

With the data retrieved earlier, the Director singled out a Charon-owned sky scraper as the location for a package known as the Sarcophagus as well as a Charon official holding the code to opening it. Two teams, Team A consisting of Carolina, York, Washington, and Maine, Team B consisting of North, Connecticut (or C.T.), and Wyoming, were sent out to each of the targets. The Director also secretly dispatched Texas and gave her a transmitter that would send a signal for the Freelancer mother ship, Mother of Invention, to fire a MAC round that would destroy the whole building after Team A completed their job, which is exactly what happened. Team B failed to retrieve the case with the code, forcing Team A to ambush the official themselves and take it. After an awesome battle scene of the Freeway, Texas took possession of the case, giving her credit for achieving the mission.

Now that the Director had what he wanted, he used the contents of the Sarcophagus to split off the Alpha's logic, creating Delta, who was paired with York, and quite well too. At they same time, the Director warned Carolina that she would be doing more morally ambiguous actions, which she accepted. As the program continued, more AI were created and assigned to agents based on personality traits. Omega was split from the Alpha's rage and given to Texas. Sigma was split from the Alpha's creativity and ambition and assigned to Carolina, who handed it off to Maine who was unable to speak following injuries from the freeway battle. Gamma was split from the Alpha's deceit and given to Wyoming. However, C.T. came to realize the problem with the Director's actions and, believing that they were a resistance group, defected to Charon secretly.

Taking advantage of Carolina's rivalry with Texas, the Director put them on opposing teams at a simulation base, where both sides were at a stalemate. The conflict ended with Texas winning, and the Director took the people on the teams into account the next time Freelancer needed to create a stalemate.

The Director realized that the leader of the security forces might have information on what the Director was doing, so he organized his agents to find in capture him at a scrap metal recycling station. They attempted to sneak in with York trying to open a backdoor, but an alarm was remotely triggered, forcing the Director to use a more direct approach. The Insurrection Leader was not at the station, and was in fact hiding in a ship in bone valley. C.T. left the group to join the Charon soldiers as the Leader attacked the Mother of Invention before dropping a nuke and fleeing. Everyone survived, but now C.T. was a target.

The Director gave North the AI Theta, split off from the Alpha's trust and another pairing that worked quite well, though South was pissed off for not getting one. It was revealed here that the Director did not allow the AI to communicate with each other directly. It was also shown that the Director had been giving AI theory classes to the Freelancers, annoying South even more. However, Texas did not attend, as according to the Director, she didn't need training.

The Director then organized a mission to finally capture the Insurrection Leader and take back C.T., or at least her armor. While the mission was almost a success with most of the Charon soldiers getting killed in the battle, the conflict between Carolina and Texas on whether or not they should kill C.T. led to the leader getting away and C.T. mortally wounded.

Now ever since the Sarcophagus mission, Carolina was jealous of Texas's apparent superiority to her, and wished to be stronger. Sigma and Gamma convinced her to talk to the Director about getting an AI, since she gave hers to Maine. Wash and South were due for AI implantation, but the Director decided to give his daughter the choice of pushing back one of them, with the reasoning that if Carolina thought the decisions were so easy, she should make one. But since Carolina was aware to an extent that the AI were fragments and that the new ones would be weaker, she requested both AI. The Director gave in, partially because she was his daughter, and partially because he personally wanted to see what would happen if two AI were put into a person.

It didn't end well. Carolina immediately challenged Texas to a match as soon as she awoke after surgery. Just as the match was beginning, the Director interrupted to stop the match, yelling "No, Allison!" in panic. The name caused a reaction in all of the AI except for Tex and Omega, and since Carolina had two AI, she had a mental breakdown. The Director refused to directly help because "she made her decision". After that incident, the Director created another AI, Epsilon, based on the Alpha's memories. The AI was to be implanted into Wash. That really didn't end well. As soon as the AI was implanted, he effectively committed suicide, flooding Wash's head with visions of Allison as well as what the Director did to the Alpha. Aware of the breakdown but unaware of the memories that Wash received, the Director shut down the AI implantation proceedings, aware that they were starting to cause more damage then was needed.

At the same time, Texas found a dog tag from C.T. that contained all the information on what Freelancer had done to the Alpha AI and the crimes of the Director, as well as her true identity as Beta. Texas then broke out with York, before breaking back in to rescue the Alpha. At the same time, Sigma took full control of Maine to become the Meta, and started on a rampage by attacking Wyoming. The Director framed Texas as responsible and sent out Carolina to stop her, and as the agents turned against one another, the ''Mother of Invention" crashed onto Sidewinder as Texas managed to get to the Alpha. However, the Alpha had lost his memories thanks to Epsilon being separated from him, and Texas left without retrieving him. Just then, the Meta attacked Carolina, stole her AI, and then seemingly killed her in front of Texas and the Director, forcing Texas to flee.

With that disaster over, Freelancer needed to regroup and recover. The Director was now aware that the Alpha was in danger, and decided to hide it some place where no one would think to look for it with another Freelancer, Florida, to make sure nothing happened. The Alpha became known as Leonard Church and given a human body. When the body was killed, causing Church to become separated from the host and think that he was a ghost, the Director allowed Texas to arrive, knowing that she would protect the Alpha no matter what. The Director also started the Recovery program to retrieve equipment from dead agents or otherwise.

The Great War eventually ended. As the killings of the Meta continued, the UNSC Oversight Subcommittee, represented by Chairman Malcolm Hargrove, started an investigation on the killings and on Freelancer, realizing that the Meta somehow had multiple Freelancer AI even though there was only supposed to be one. The Director was dodgy in his letters to the Chairman, but eventually admitted that he did what the thought was necessary for humanity, in spite of the regulations that the UNSC had. The Chairman declared that the Director would be placed under arrest, and that the AI restrictions would be increased. The Director admitted that while disappointed, he was not surprised. The Director claimed that although the AI are based on human minds, there is no law preventing one from torturing their own mind. The Director mourned the fact that he never got a chance to serve and stated that he was prepared for the soldiers coming for him.

At the same time, Washington was searching for evidence to convict the Director as well as a way to defeat the Meta. Wash and Church found Epsilon, and Wash revealed to Church his true identity as the Alpha, which Church didn't believe. Wash planned to use an EMP built into the Freelancer Command Center to destroy the AI in the Meta. The Director communicated with Wash from a distance as he neared the EMP terminal and at first the Director tried to politely convince him to stop, but realized that Wash had the memories from Epsilon. Deciding that Wash wasn't needed, the Director ordered Maine to kill the agent. However, Alpha-Church then revealed himself to distract the Meta, allowing Wash to wipe out all of the AI expect for Epsilon, who was with Caboose. But through a combination of the Red Team deleting information on Blue Team and Caboose not turning over Epsilon in order to create a new Church, there was no evidence to convict the Director, so Wash was arrested instead.

While people talked about wanting to go after the Director, he didn't appear in the present day sequences until the Season 10 finale. With the program shut down at this point, the Director had nothing else to do but keep trying to revive Allison. Now this part warrants some explanation. See, when Beta was created from Alpha, she was based on the Director's memories of Allison. However, the most prominent memory was of her death, so Texas was doomed to fail any personally important task she had. Eventually, she was captured by the Meta and wiped out by the EMP. The Director kept on trying to recreate Allison, resulting in a whole ton of robots based on Texas that he used as body guards while he kept working in an offsite facility.

Eventually he was found by Carolina, who was actually alive all this time, and Epsilon, who assumed the form of the Alpha. The Director was just sitting there, watching a video of Allison, only accompanied by the "dumb" AI FILSS (dumb means not based on a human mind), and invited Carolina to watch with him. Epsilon revealed his anger towards the Director, but Carolina, who had come all this way to kill him, instead took pity. However, the Director asked for Carolina's pistol, which she obliged. As the protagonists left the facility, the Director shut down all systems and erased all files except for the video. As he put the gun to his head, the Director told FILSS that though he didn't succeed in reviving Allison, he may have come very close. "Perhaps the next time around."

Is he charismatic? Charming? Thinks on his feet?

Very much yes. The Director is natural born leader and excellent source of intelligence. Yeah he is kind of a dickhead, but he doesn't make that obvious at first. His politeness is genuine, and he only shouts when he needs to make a point. Also, he makes many good points in his conversations with the Chairman, even at one point calling out the Chairman on his corruption (seems hypocritical, but the Chairman is way worse on every level than the Director). He knows that he is defeated by present day, and only wants more time for Allison to be reborn. And he did truly love Allison, and in the end he also realized that he truly loved his daughter even with his behavior towards her. So kind of an asshole, but not too much.

Planning wise, as I said before, the Director is a natural born leader. He has organized many strategies with his team, and has managed to weed out the strongest agents that are necessary. Even when the program crashed, the Director calmly picked up the pieces to put it back together. Most of the problems with the project that he didn't realize came from the agents themselves. Of all the villains in the series, the Director had the most variables that could explode in his face, and he knew it too. It's a miracle that he kept the program going after everything. In the end, the Director was not defeated by his own agents, but by the law.

Hell even after everything, the Director was kind of right. He proved that his enhancements worked, and the antagonists of the Chorus arc use improved versions of Freelancer technology. Also, it may seem like that he fumbled everything, but Freelancer went on for a long time before the implosion, and he got a lot of research done in that time for the UNSC to use. As far as the Director himself is concerned, he won.

Is he a bastard? Too much?

It agreed by just about every single character that the Director is a bad man. He has manipulated his own agents, tortured an AI, is perfectly willing to kill potential threats, and even causes property damage. The Director is well aware of how bad his actions are, but justifies them for his cause. Plus, the Chairman and those working for him are worse. Did the Director go for genocide? Nope. The Director has few Kick the Dog moments, and never grasps the Villain Ball.

Verdict?

I would say [tup], but what do you guys think?

Edited by SatoshiBakura on Jul 31st 2018 at 3:53:59 PM

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#3163: Jul 31st 2018 at 1:42:59 PM

Before I move on with the femme fatale duo, I wanted to EP this guy:

What is the work?

The Disney Ducks Comic Universe, a series of comics featuring Disney characters like Donald Duck, even more popular around the world than the United States, which is largely dominated by superhero comics. This character is from the continuity built up by Carl Barks and his "successor", Don Rosa. He only appears in two stories written and drawn by the latter in addition to a few cameos, The Black Knight, as opposed to say, the Beagle Boys, who have appeared in literally thousands of stories and one-shots.

Who is the Character? What have they done?

Arpin Lusene is a Gentleman Thief and very transparent Captain Ersatz of the French literary character Arsene Lupin. In fact, he's almost a parody as well, since a lot of his achievements are of the Impossible Theft sort. Having stolen everything that could possibly be worth stealing throughout his career, often just because he could, he arrives in Duckburg with one single purpose in mind before going into retirement: to steal the fortune of Scrooge McDuck. Yes, the entire Money Bin and every cent inside it. He publically makes this challenge on the radio to taunt Scrooge, who is livid at Lusene's audacity and prepares for the challenge. Lusene easily infiltrates the Bin by crawling on the walls, leaving fake prints to confuse Scrooge and Donald, and using a voice modifier and his own skills to copy a key only Scrooge possesses. Lusene steals a suit of armor, a bag of diamond dust, and something from one of Scrooge's vaults (figuring that it must contain something very dear to Scrooge), containing his most dangerous possession: the Universal Solvent.

See, in a previous story, Gyro Gearloose invented a black-colored substance that would destroy literally anything it comes into contact with, except diamonds (this was intentional on Gyro's part, obviously, because how else would you store it?). The last time it was used, Scrooge threw it on the ground and it proceeded to eat a hole down to the very center of the Earth, nearly dooming the planet. Lusene soon realizes the Universal Solvent's true nature, but then has an ingenious idea: he uses a combination of glue and the diamond dust to coat the suit of armor with the solvent, thus creating the Black Knight. Lusene himself is now The Juggernaut, completely indestructible to anything and everything. Cops try to arrest him? His suit dissolves the cuffs. Shoot him with a cannon? He walks right through it. Drop a building on him? Don't make him laugh. Throw him in a pool of acid? His suits absorbs it like a damn sponge. When he reaches the Money Bin, Scrooge points out that Lusene can't possibly steal his entire fortune, but Lusene reveals his true intention is to dissolve Scrooge's life's work. He doesn't care about stealing it, only that the world thinks he did. However, Scrooge has one last trick up his sleeve, and pulls a rug that Lusene is standing on him to send him hurling down through several floors, until he lands on a vault filled with diamonds to stop his fall. They remove the unconscious Lusene from his suit, who graciously accepts defeat before disappearing.

Lusene returns in a later story, seeking to recover his suit of armor and give it another try. Of course, Scrooge has ensured there's no way for anyone to get to it, except that Lusene uses a false ploy to make Scrooge think that he's gotten it back, just so that Scrooge would check to make sure. After following them, he takes back the suit for real, goes back to his workshop to make some adjustments to it (installing a hook on the back), then goes back to Scrooge's Money Bin, except this time the carpet trick doesn't work anymore since he can stop his own fall by wiggling just slightly. After getting into the main vault, he starts dissolving Scrooge's fortune, but Scrooge swears that he'll cover it up. Lusene considers this rather unsportsmanlike, but he relents and tries to find a different way to impress the world. He settles on destroying various trophies obtained by Scrooge during his travels as an Adventurer Archaeologist, which are being showcased in the Duckburg museum. Scrooge manages to use a Batman Gambit on Lusene to trap him in an air-sealed room entirely coated with diamond dust, except Lusene immediately realizes that something is wrong and has to be shoved in by Donald. While trapped, he threatens to straight up dissolve poor Donald unless Scrooge opens the door. However, Donald gets an idea and hangs on to the hook on the back of Lusene's suit, surviving long enough until the suit has eaten away at the air inside the room, thus knocking both of them unconscious. Scrooge and his nephews grab the suit, then send it off on a permanent round trip in the Earth's orbit. Lusene once again proves himself a Graceful Loser before escaping, gifting Scrooge with a valuable painting. He's last seen in his French Riviera mansion, reading books on rocket science and peering at the suit through a telescope.

How do his actions and personality show he is a Magnificent Bastard?

He's an incredibly intelligent and cunning villain, by far the most dangerous Scrooge has ever faced. There isn't a building he can't break into, his improvisation with the suit made him an unstoppable threat, and he's constantly walking circles around the Ducks. If he's trapped, he almost always manages to come up with some sort of solution. Like when the Ducks manage to drop him on a rowboat, he uses his sword as a propellor blade (the dissolving water creating motion, thus allowing him to steer the craft without having to get out of his suit to swim to shore). When he returns to menace Scrooge once again, he rethinks his original plan to make it fail-safe. Even trying to trick him doesn't always work, such as Scrooge's partially succesful Batman Gambit.

He's also one of Scrooge's few enemies who sees him as a Worthy Opponent, a feeling that Scrooge shares to some extent. The Beagle Boys, while occasionally showing some flashes of competence, are too blunt and simple-minded to operate on his level. Scrooge just regards them as a bunch of thugs, including their leader and founder, Blackheart Beagle. Flintheart Glomgold, Scrooge's Evil Counterpart, is a bonafide Smug Snake and just plain vile, as well as Magica DeSpell to a lesser degree. Those two he simply despises. Also, unlike Lusene, a lot of them have to deal with a serious case of Depending on the Writer, which makes them wildly different characters story-to-story. Lusene has been so sparsely used (and by the same writer to boot) that he doesn't suffer from this. To the world at large, he's a millionaire playboy and a genius master thief. While Scrooge is sometimes annoyed by his taunts, Lusene is nevertheless an incredibly devilishly charming character, even wooing Scrooge's secretary briefly with his gentlemanliness, while in the process of robbing her boss. And when he seems to be about to fly into a rage when Scrooge foils him the second time around, he composes himself, yells "Touché!" and kisses Scrooge (hey, he's French, remember) for his well-deserved victory.

As for the Bad? Aside from being a thief who has stolen millions of dollars, priceless artifacts, art, and anything else of value, his plan to destroy Scrooge's fortune is more personal and hard-hitting than anything any of his other foes have in mind for him. Also, he proves fully willing to outright murder Donald, and their altercation when Donald knocks him unconscious proves he's not bluffing. Even so, the Disney comics obviously have a pretty low bar for villainy, and outright sadistic crimes just isn't something that any bad guy really gets up to (except maybe The Phantom Blot, Mickey Mouse's Arch-Enemy, in stories where he's played up as a Knight of Cerebus).

Mitigating Factors?

None. While he gets beaten on both occasions, it took a herculean effort by Scrooge, Donald and his nephews, and even then he takes it in stride, planning his inevitable return.

Verdict?

Clear-cut keeper.

Edited by Morgenthaler on Jul 31st 2018 at 2:14:55 AM

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#3164: Jul 31st 2018 at 1:44:47 PM

[tup] to both above.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#3165: Jul 31st 2018 at 1:51:40 PM

Yes to both of the above. Morgen, I've got a historical comic example myself that I'll post when you do Arminius

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3166: Jul 31st 2018 at 2:05:22 PM

Sure to Church and Lusene. And Chase.

Anyways, to make up for my recent lack of activity here, I've got a few animated posts I want to get to in the future and some I want to get up now. I notice our MB section for animated films is blank, so let me rectify that...

What's the setting?

Rango is an animated flick with Johnny Depp in the lead... moderately famous for winning the Best Animated Feature in 2012 and moderately infamous for its uniquely ugly art style and utter defiance of the Animation Age Ghetto, Depp's character is a tiny pet chameleon with a passion for acting who suddenly finds his world turned upside-down when he's smashed out of his cage and left to fend for himself on the road. The chameleon, on the advice of an elderly armadillo (who also has the minor gripe of having been cut in half by traffic) is pointed to a town in the surrounding desert named Dirt. Dirt? Is in the middle of a water crisis. And when the seemingly harmless lizard kills a hawk by accident and uses his acting skills to convince the others he's the famous outlaw "Rango," it's suddenly up to him to solve this crisis as he's appointed sheriff... and defend the town from any further threats.

Now, our candidate today? Meet Rattlesnake Jake, played by Bill Nighy (who also paralleled Depp as Davy Jones in Pirates of the Caribbean).

Who is Rattlesnake Jake? What has he done?

A terrifying, vicious outlaw who prowls the desert outside of Dirt, Jake is basically Angel Eyes in the form of a red-eyed diamondback rattlesnake, with a presence around Dirt that terrifies anyone who simply hears his name. Rango? Arrogantly capitalizes on this by claiming he's Jake's brother and drinks his poison as a cool refreshing drink. Now, as we go through the film... we find out the tortoise mayor who runs the town is the Big Bad, who's been stealing the water for himself to fund a city of his own making. And Rango? Has been getting a bit too close to the truth. So who to call on?

Jake, of course. Debuting halfway through the movie, Jake completely steals Rango's rallying speech to the despairing citizens of Dirt by using the machine gun on his tail he has in the place of a rattle to blow the sheriff's sign to ribbons. Jake gleefully taunts his terrified "brother" and proceeds to give him one hell of a Breaking Speech, revealing him as a liar and a fraud in front of the entire town and exiling him. Jake? Takes up residence at the Mayor's side to make sure nothing else goes awry, serving as his muscle to cow the citizens into terrified compliance. Beans, Rango's love interest, in particular? The mayor tries to bribe her out of her father's ranch, and when she remains defiant, Jake coils around her and tries to scare her into signing the deed by threatening to "squeeze them pretty brown eyes out of your skull!" shutting up even the mayor when he tries to reel Jake back in and proving completely willing to follow through on that threat... only to be stopped by his name being called outside. Rango? Is back.

Jake returns, accepting Rango's duel at noon, only for Rango to turn the tables by redirecting all of the mayor's stolen water to erupt through Dirt, stunning Jake. After that, a black shadow falls upon the town. Jake's only fear, as it turns out? Was the hawk Rango slew. Jake hides, at first, but... seeing through the trick in just a few seconds (essentially, the hawk? Are a bunch of bats being piloted by a family of outlaws Rango defeated and befriended earlier) and renders Rango's little ploy null by gunning the bats to oblivion. Finally, when he runs out of ammo, Rango points a gun in his face, and Jake realizes Rango's finally willing to prove himself a hero by shooting Jake dead. Jake's forced to reconsider Rango's situation when the mayor tosses him and Beans in a water vault to drown, before stupidly deciding Jake's outlived his usefulness and sneering "pretty soon, nobody will believe you even existed!" Rango turns the tables, shattering the water vault and knocking the mayor flat on his shell. The mayor pleads for mercy, and Rango kicks him over...

...to a furious Jake. Jake finally sees Rango's elaborate plan for what it is and honorably concedes defeat, tipping his hat from "one legend to another." And the mayor? Jake pounces on him and drags him out into the desert with probably the most badass use of an Ironic Echo I've ever seen in an animated film — "what was that you said? Pretty soon, no one will believe you even existed."

What's his competition like?

Jake's main competition is his very employer, the mayor himself. The mayor's got an admittedly elaborate con to drain the water out of Dirt into his city-in-progress, with loose ends murdered along the way. However... the mayor, as he proves by the end? Is a complete and utter Smug Snake who Rango deduces is up to something quite early and then proceeds to sign his own death warrant by trying to shoot Jake. Jake? Promptly turns the tables on him in an epic dose of karma if I've ever seen it.

Is he too much of a bastard?

Jake? Is implied to be something of a serial killer throughout Dirt, with it being stated early on he never leaves town without taking somebody with him, and proves worthy of that moniker when he drags the treacherous mayor out of Dirt to slaughter him. However, Jake's got a very prominent sense of honor... he's hinted to despise liars and frauds, hence why Rango gets on his nerves initially, and beyond that, he knows when to give out his respect to those who earn it. Once Rango graduates to true hero and manages to turn the tables on Jake? Jake unhesitatingly and shamelessly acknowledges him as a Worthy Opponent and leaves Dirt in peace while killing the Big Bad himself.

How does he operate?

It would be... so, so easy to write Jake as just a swaggering Psycho for Hire with no wits or brains about him at all. And yes, people get the better of him a few times, and he shows an open willingness to violence to solve a problem as he demonstrates with Beans. It's pertinent to note, though? Every single time Jake finds someone getting the better of him, he always, always recoups. And in terms of smarts and perception? Jake's got plenty of that, too — he demonstrates in his very first scene he's capable of tearing down Rango through words alone, and he manages to see through Rango's trick with the hawk in a near-instant. And when the mayor tries to treat him as a loose end? Jake lets him know in no uncertain terms he's not a force to be treated lightly.

Jake's terrifying, badass, and stylish, fully showing every moment he's onscreen why he's so dreaded throughout Dirt, but he's got a surprising amount of cunning behind that as well and he bows out of the film with twice as much grace as you'd ever except out of an expy of Angel Eyes.

Conclusion?

I'd say an easy keep. Easily one of my favorite animated villains ever, too.

Thoughts?

Edited by Scraggle on Jul 31st 2018 at 4:50:19 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#3167: Jul 31st 2018 at 2:16:07 PM

Yes to Jake.

My penultimate Warhammer 40K example: Ahriman.

Who is Ahriman?

Ahzek Ahriman is the champion of Tzeentch. Now, Tzeentch is the second eldest of the chaos Gods-the god of sorcery and change. Tzeentch is a schemer who schemes for the love of scheming, ever with a zillion extra plans and backups. His Daemons are ever changing things...and Ahriman is the best. But his story is an interesting one. Born Azhek Ahriman in the 30th Millennium, in the Achamenid Empire, Ahriman eventually became a member of the Legions, namely the Thousand Sons, under Magnus the Red. Things went wrong during the Horus Heresy (to say the flipping least) and the Thousand Sons, who had attempted to warn the Emperor of Mankind about his most beloved son Horus's insanity, found themselves declared traitors and were turned to the worship of Tzeentch to save themselves, and Tzeentch answered, infecting the Thousand Sons with energies of mutation and change. Ahriman called upon Tzeentch's sorcery to stop this (using the magic of change to stop change. Tzeentch is still laughing about this ten thousand years later), creating the Rubric of Ahriman spell...unfortunately a lot of the guys it was used on became ghosts bound to their own armor.

Magnus was furious at Ahriman for acting without his explicit instruction. Tzeentch intervened to save Ahriman, who was exiled by Magnus on the spot. Ahriman decided he had to save his Legion....and overthrow Tzeentch if possible. He seeks the Black Library, to find the greatest secrets of reality, even Tzeentch's true name, while Tzeentch considers Ahriman his greatest mortal champion after Magnus's ascent into being a Daemon Prince.

And as a Tzeentch champion? Ahriman is a frigging genius...he cultivates cults all over the galaxy to seek new information, manipulates entire conflicts for them to unearth new things, then waltzes in, takes them out and steals what they learned. He has gone against Eldar, a race who plot and plot and plot more, and he wins. Ahriman spins incredible plots, going hundreds of years in the making to pull off the end result and get him a little closer to the Black Library and to overthrow Tzeentch and achieve godhood. Tzeentch? He knows this. And he loves it. What's more wonderful and chaotic than a champion who rebels against you while simultaneously fulfilling your goals? Ahriman has challenged Slaanesh, the fourth Chaos God for the souls of Eldar Harlequins and won. Just quoting the game on him: "A master of subtle manipulation, Ahriman has seeded cults on a hundred worlds, and bent the desires of the powerful to achieve his ends. With conspiracies and plots spread across the galaxy, he coils between them, a puppet master pulling invisible strings. When such subtle means are impossible he wages a sorcerer’s war, forcing armies to kneel with visions of terror, shattering war machines with invisible forces, and ripping the souls from mighty heroes. He knows the true names of 9x9x9 daemons, and possesses pacts which can bring daemonic armies flocking to his call. Worlds have burned at his command, billions have fallen to the hunger of the Warp, and reality has bled at the fury of his power."

His intentions are good. His means...not so much.

Is he charming? Charismatic? A good planner?

Look, see above. The guy is THE chessmaster. He's the master of "JUST AS PLANNED!" And he's charimatic as all hell, driven by a genuine well intentioned desire to save his legion.

Now, the obvious elephant in the room is, of course, Tzeentch. It's really unclear if everything Ahriman does is outside of Tzeentch's purview or not, because Tzeentch has been watching everything that happened between Ahriman and Magnus from the start, and loves it. Tzeentch is pure chaos and change, the ultimate master of strategy, and Ahriman is his champion despite Ahriman's own best efforts. basically, it's unclear if Ahriman is just another pawn of Tzeentch or if he can break away from that. However, Ahriman runs rings around just about everyone else and has gotten the better of even other gods. Tzeentch is, of course, a flipping GOD whose purview is planning for everything and even if Tzeentch was stopped and overthrown, Tzeentch would be unlikely to even care. I'd give Ahriman a pass.

Is he a bastard? Too much?

He's a Chaos Sorcerer. Ahriman has annihilated worlds and countless lives. It's part of the gig. Thing is, Ahriman alone is genuine in his desires to make things better. He wants to save his legion, he loved his twin brother Ohrmuz and he even reconciles with Magnus as family before the massive Siege of Fenris. Ahriman is a borderline Saint as far as morality goes for a Chaos marine. He really feels he'll be making things better down the road.

Conclusion?

I'd give Ahriman a yes.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 31st 2018 at 2:18:10 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#3168: Jul 31st 2018 at 2:30:15 PM

[tup]jake (Love that guy) and aiharim

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#3170: Jul 31st 2018 at 2:43:48 PM

[tup] to Rattlesnake Jake.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#3171: Jul 31st 2018 at 3:13:56 PM

[tup] To all of the above

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#3173: Jul 31st 2018 at 3:37:19 PM

[tup] Rattlesnake Jake and Ahriman.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#3174: Jul 31st 2018 at 3:47:23 PM

[tup] to all the above, especially Rattlesnake Jake which is ironic since the actual Smug Snake isn’t the snake.

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#3175: Jul 31st 2018 at 4:00:30 PM

Yes to the Director, Lusene, Jake and Ahriman.


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