During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
If we discounted characters for making Heroic Sacrifices, we wouldn't have Nagato or Obito up.
What's giving me pause is when he did that you could maybe argue he's a Smug Snake, but he's remorseful over that, but at that point I'm not getting he's still somewhat villainous.
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I'm not discounting Heroic Sacrifices. I'm wondering if he's too heroic period. Like I didn't upvote him but Eddington(not asking for a relitigation) had a Heroic Sacrifice, but he was still manipulating the heroes while helping a terrorist orginization. I did not see that as disqualifying.
Edited by jjjj2 on Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:36:52 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midEarnestly I think it's quite common amongst MBs... lack of morals as they may have, it makes a nice final show of grace and nobility, frequently coupled with taking out someone worse than they were.
Having a bit of trouble understanding the line of reasoning that's causing concern: is it that he shows remorse for his previous actions j? We've got the likes of Schreber who wants to free mankind from the Strangers but he's going about it by playing as their scientist and letting them kill and brainwash people until he can make his move. Likewise the manga version of Varohl was always a king who wanted to save humanity but as part of a gambit to subvert the gods trying to kill them he let himself use a power knowing it would corrupt him and that he'd kill countless people as part of a Cold Equation. Is that more in lines with your question?
Edited by 43110 on Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:36:58 AM
I view characters as the sum of their parts. An otherwise heroic character with bastard moments can qualify for that, even if they continue on a path of righteousness, or a reformed villain can qualify for me in that case. Metatron draws a direct line from his evil deeds, to being humbled and his final redemption
Well mark me as abstain then.
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My problem is that I'm getting the sense that when he was villainous he might have been a Smug Snake (if you ignore the heroic parts). He was schlubby and somewhat pathetic but very cunning. Then he's humbled. And he's good at that point. And he goes out on a high note. But when he's villainous he's got pathetic moments and when he's heroic while he's awesome he's not very morally gray.
Edited by jjjj2 on Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:39:39 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midSince it looks like Supernatural might get a page. Any good quote ideas?
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
to Metatron; we’ve allowed many a full-on Heel–Face Turn, so this isn’t really an issue.
If it's no problem, I went through the liberty of creating a page for Supernatural.
Also, can anyone think of good tropes to pothole Azazel and Crowley's names?
Aah. Hey everyone, it's me Space Protagonist again. So as you may have guessed, I've got another proposal to make. I think you're going to like this one.
What's the Work?
My next candidate is from the beloved Nickelodeon cartoon series Avatar: The Last Airbender. You probably already know how the main plot goes, but if for some reason you haven't gotten around to seeing the show, let to tell you about it. There are four separate nations: Water, Earth, Fire and Air. A couple of people were born with the power to bend one of the elements depending on where they grew up. But there's also this one all-powerful being who can bend all four of the elements known as The Avatar. Some time before the events of the series, The Fire Nation had started a war that went on for a hundred years, and the Avatar had disappeared when the world needed him most. Then one day, water tribe siblings Katara and Sokka (well, technically Katara) had freed someone from an iceberg who turns out to be the Avatar's latest incarnation: Air Nomad Aang. He's also the Last of His Kind as the Fire Nation wiped the air nation during the war. With a lot of catching up to do has to train to master all the elements so he can finally put an end to the war.
Who is She and What has she done?
My next candidate is a One-Shot Character from the episode "The Puppetmaster"; Part Breather Episode,
Part game changer. Keep reading to find out why. (it's available to watch for free here
) She's an old woman named Hama. At least 60 years before the events of the series, she was a young girl who was friends with Kanna (who would later grow up to be Katara and Sokka's grandmother). She was one of the many waterbenders within the Southern Water Tribe. When she turned into a young adult, the Fire Nation raided the Water Tribe and took down their defenses by slowly taking the waterbenders captive. Hama and the other Waterbenders tried to fight back, and even managed to freeze at least one ship by suspending it on ice. But, the raids continued more and more waterbenders would get captured, until eventually, Hama was the last remaining waterbender in the tribe. She eventually surrendered and was led away in chains to be transported back to the Fire Nation to be imprisoned.
While in prison, she and the other waterbenders were caged and separated from each other. The Fire Nation made sure that the waterbenders (including her) could not use water powers to escape; the prison kept humidity to a minimum so no water could be pulled from the air, and the waterbenders' limbs were chained whenever they were given water. (Hey, give them credit, at least they were considerate enough to even give them water) Every month, Hama could feel the power of the full moon and wondered how she could escape. After held captive and tortured for decades, she realized that since water exists within all living things, she could control them by bending the water inside their bodies. Thus, discovering a new special ability. But she could only use this ability during full moons when her bending was at its most powerful. First, she tested it out on elephant-rats (It Makes Sense in Context), and after quite a bit of practice she was eventually master this skill which she called "bloodbending". She would eventually move on to "bloodbend" the Fire Nation guards when they walked past her and forced one to unlock her cell door allowing her to escape the prison.
After making her great escape, she would move into a small Fire Nation village and become the sole keeper of an abandoned inn. Despite having her freedom back, it wasn't enough. She wanted vengeance on harsh treatment she and the other waterbenders had received during their imprisonment. She used her newly-discovered bloodbending abilities to kidnap Fire Nation villagers every full moon, forcing them to walk up a mountain where she would imprison them in a cave.
Cut to the present-day events of the episode, and Team Avatar is telling each other ghost stories and Toph (another Team Avatar member) hears screaming voices under a mountain, but Sokka thought she was just trying to scare him, and Katara thought she was scared. Then Hama turns up startling all of them and invites them to her inn presenting herself as a friendly, innocent woman. She tells them the legend about the people's disappearances at full moons then asks if they wanted any tea. She sets up beds for them that night, and the day takes them out shopping. Katara quickly gets along with her due to her friendly demeanor. She sends the group to the groceries back to the inn as she runs some more errands. Sokka gets suspicious about the legend and Hama and searches her house. He comes across a locked small wooden box, just as Hama returns and catches the kids snooping. Turns out there was an old comb in the box: the final thing she had from the Southern Water Tribe.
She cooks the team dinner and tells the story of her early life and the Southern Water Tribe and how she was the Sole Survivor of the waterbenders, until she was taken too. The team (especially Katara, another southern tribe waterbender) sympathizes with her. She offers to teach Katara some of her moves to carry on her legacy, which she agrees to. She takes Katara to a separate area and teaches her to how to resourcefully pull water from thin air one of the demonstrations kills a pack of flowers. Following her demonstration, Hama offered to teach Katara a powerful technique that was only possible during the full moon. When Katara expressed hesitance due to the rumors of disappearances, Hama reassured her that two master waterbenders under a full moon should be able to handle anything. And this is about where the episode goes into full nightmare mode.
That night, Aang, Sokka and Toph continued to hear rumors about the full moon curse from an old man lucky enough to nearly become a victim and survive. They head towards the mountain and captured prisoners who tell them about Hama's true nature who seemed harmless enough but quickly controlled the people like puppets. Meanwhile, Hama led Katara into a nearby forest as she tells them about how she founded bloodbending. Katara is reasonably hesitant to use the new technique no matter how much the people deserved it but Hama reminds her that they were the last waterbenders of the Southern Tribe and they had to fight back by any means necessary. Katara connects the dots and realizes Hama was the reason for the constant full moon disappearances, but by then it was too late as Hama bloodbends her and brags that she should have learned the technique before turning against her, as Katara breaks free and uses the same pulling-water-out-of-thin-air tricks she thought her earlier. Man, From Nobody to Nightmare would be a massive understatement. Aang and Sokka show up to confront Hama (Toph was rescuing the prisoners offscreen) but Hama plays Xanatos Speed Chess and bloodbends the two boys forcing Katara to learn the bloodbending technique overnight to save her friends. Toph shows up with the prisoners as they lock Hama up in the same cave she kept them in her a long time. But right before she sent away, she says this to Katara: "My work is done. Congratulations Katara, you're a bloodbender!" That's right, Hama planned all this. She didn't care if she had lost the battle, as long as Katara learned how to bloodbend and carried on her legacy. And man, is the legacy carried on. In the reboot/spinoff series, The Legend of Korra, other villains like Amon and his father Yakone would continue to keep bloodbending alive and use it in their battles (even though it had been outlawed, and for good reason too.), and it's all because of Hama. She made have made a single appearance in the original series, but MAN what an impact!
Is She Magnificent?
You'd better believe it. Not only did she invent one of the most powerful forms of bending ever, but she's also super efficient with it and an excellent fighter. Have you SEEN that fight with Katara? She's also great at pretending to be a harmless old lady and tricking people into thinking she wasn't a major issue. Big mistake!Is She a Bitch?
Well considering she kidnapped dozens of innocent civilians and imprisoned them out of petty revenge, I'd say... yes. Although, she does have a soft spot for all of the imprisoned waterbenders she knew in her time, even though that doesn't completely excuse her actions. Plus, she and Katara were rather great companions prior to the big reveal.What's Her Competition Like?
The Avatar universe already has a lot of approved M Bs. Four of them are from the Korra spinoff. The original series has the Iconic Sequel Character that is Azula, Zuko's younger, and much craftier and eviler sister. Although, Hama may still qualify for this trope considering not only how resourceful and well-intentioned she is, but also the legacy she has left. Plus, Azula's not even in this episode. If she gets approved, she'll be the sixth Avatar character to be a magnificent b#$@!*d, we're going to have to create a separate page soon!The Verdict
I completely understand if you have other plans, considering she's a walking Nightmare Fuel station. But I still want to take her into consideration. Thanks and good night.We EP'd her. We downvoted her for being too creepy and her crime was considered to be uniquely horrifying in-universe. She's mostly using her powers to abuse innocent civilians. Not very magnificent.
Edited by jjjj2 on Nov 22nd 2020 at 10:17:15 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midWe already downvoted Hama. She's not really Magnificent. She just to creepy and needlessly cruel to innocent civilians. Compare her to the current keepers from the verse, who are all charismatic and brilliant villains, she doesn't really stack up. So no to her.
Edited by Bullman on Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:29:34 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

I mean, to that date Metatron has expelled angels from heaven, killing many in the fall, manipulated Gadreel into murders people, including the innocent Kevin, trapped human souls in the Veil and a number of other evil deeds besides.