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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#3076: Jul 28th 2018 at 3:09:00 PM

One I'd like to propose from DC as well...Lady Shiva, namely from the 2000s Batgirl run.

Who is Lady Shiva?

Born Sandra Wu-San, Shiva was an accomplished young martial artist born in an unknown Asian country. Eventually, they escaped and moved to Detroit where they sparred together. Shiva would develop a secret type of body language with her sister, the two reading each other through their body language. However...Sandra was far ahead of her sister Carolyn. But out of respect and love for her sister, she held back. The assassin David Cain saw this, and recognized in Sandra a potential for greatness...so he murdered Carolyn. Sandra trained hard and learned Cain had murdered her sister. She hunted him down, but was lured into an ambush by Cain working with Ra's al Ghul's League of Assassins. Cain offered her a choice: He would spare her life if she'd bear him a child and leave it for him to raise. With no other way to live, Sandra agreed. She soon became pregnant with Cain's child and decided the child would be a way to one day stop her from what she would become....she left Cain and Sandra Wu-San died. Lady Shiva, the destroyer was born.

Shiva goes on to become the greatest martial artist in the world, and a world class assassin, who plunges into challenges for the thrill of it. Interestingly, Shiva also becomes a mentor to would-be heroes, guiding them to great er heights. She saves the life of Vic Sage, the Question to chart his path. Shiva repeatedly takes on dangerous jobs, being a deadly enemy to even Batman, who is reluctant to ever face her in a straight match while organizing other events to give herself challenges. When Batman has his back broken, Shiva is the one who devises a training regimen for him, and even tries to manipulate him into killing a villain to reach his true potential as she sees it.

By this point, a minor cult springs up around her to worship her as the incarnation of the deity Shiva. She doesn't really care, using them as pawns or lackeys in her plans...which leads us to Batgirl.

Cassandra had grown up in a horrifically abusive environment under David Cain, trained to be the ultimate killing machine, but fled when she took her first life, and saw how horrible dying was. Batman eventually took her in and she became the new Batgirl. Shiva soon encounters her daughter, Cass not knowing of the relationship and is bested by her. However, over the course of the series, Shiva slowly guides Cass to greater strength, teaching her not to fear death. She even, at one point, kills Cass, but revives her. Eventually...things come to a head between them as Cass learns Shiva is her mother. In one of, hands down, the best fights in DC, Cass and Shiva square off, with Cass asking Shiva how many people she's killed since they last met. Answer? "Forty eight. With my own hands."

"Will you ever stop?"

"It's why I had you." Mother and daughter fight, with Cass proving herself Shiva's equal...before she takes Shiva's attack and catches her in a headlock. Shiva smiles peacefully...before her daughter snaps her neck. Shiva only asks for Cass to finish it, asking Cass not to save her when Cass seems to debate throwing her in a nearby Lazarus pit...instead Cass throws her onto a hook above it, impaling her, with Shiva thanking her before seemingly dying as Cass leaves.

Shiva does return at various points in other bits, but never anything this compelling.

Is she charming? Charismatic? A good planner?

Shiva is surprisingly pleasant. She's harsh and strict, but she has a very affable and soft spoken side. She's gotten along surprisingly well with a number of heroes and martial artists and has shown a surprising amount of depth over the years. She's also so charismatic she has people who worship her as a living goddess. Shiva is an undeniably compelling character and never moreso than in Batgirl.

Also, just keep in mind she was forced into being party to her own rape to bea a child and instead opted to use that child to destroy her one day, guiding Cass to become stronger for their ultimate duel. I say pass.

Is she a bastard? Too much?

She is a murderer, an assassin and she seeks out challenges, driven to endlessly test herself. She killed her own daughter in a duel, she has shown to be very brutal,and she tried to trick Batman into killing someone

What makes Shiva so interesting is that she has a legit death wish over her lifestyle. Deep down, she wants to be stopped, and she has genuine honor and standards. She loved her sister Carolyn deeply, and when Cass asks if Shiva misses her, Shiva closes her eyes and whispers "every day." She also loves Cassandra, without any doubt. She also maintains a respect with Black Canary that has verged almost to friendship at times. When one of her senseis is killed, Shiva is enraged enough to want to find and murder the killer, and honors his wish to her not to kill Black Canary (he asked Black canary not to try to arrest Shiva, prompting Shiva to snark "the requests are one and the same."

Conclusion?

I'd give Shiva a yes, with a particular emphasis on Batgirl. I'll also have writeups for Lacroix and Brimstone's devil next if nobody minds.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#3077: Jul 28th 2018 at 3:17:50 PM

@username2527 you know what... I'll add The Caller on my to do list. Will do it at a later time but dont expect it will be pretty fast as I need time to do so.

Also yea on Lady Shiva.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#3078: Jul 28th 2018 at 3:31:43 PM

[tup]lady shiva of batgirl

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#3082: Jul 28th 2018 at 6:10:03 PM

[tup] Lady Shiva

Also. This is a issue. Uh...it seems that my write-ups always have the issue of missing some details. Sorry if I'm not clear enough 43110.

* Magnificent Bastard: The Professor, formerly Hokusai Azuma, was an archeologist who discovered the Holy Ark containing the Super-Empowering Glowing Fishes. Becoming one of the first espers of the modern era, the Professor was betrayed and attacked by the General of his country and the Ares organization, which left his entire crew dead. Crafting his persona as "The Professor", he went back to Japan, adopting the son of one of his deceased crew-mates and begins plotting his vengeance against Ares, founding the terrorist group known as the Esper Liberation Front. Successfully opening the Ark atop the Tokyo Tower, the Professor causes a Mass Super-Empowering Event and despite his subsequent imprisonment, completes his revenge on Ares by leaving the heroes with instructions to take them down and free his beloved daughter. Driven to avenge his comrades, the Professor ruthlessly advances on his goals with care for none save his own child.

First of this. The Profesor was betrayed for the General of a unknown foreign country and he was free by his daughter, he didn't free her, she freed him.

Besides this. The entry is magnificent

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 28th 2018 at 9:28:51 AM

Watch me destroying my country
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#3084: Jul 28th 2018 at 8:28:48 PM

Here's the belated write-up for Amu Yunos:

Brave Frontier: The ruler of Zamburg, Cosmic Demon Amu-Yunos, is revealed to be an entity that exists before the World of Ishgria even existed. Seeking her death that she desires to alleivate her boredom, she then teases the Summoner that ventures through Zamburg so that he/she can fight with her. If not, she will destroy Ishgria with her immense power. It was also revealed that prior to the main story, she restrained a giant that opposed to her rule until the day he died. When she was defeated on the hands of the Summoner, she felt ecstatic about it and warns the Summoner that he/she will fight a different version of herself. In the Grand Quest “Entrusted Will”, it was revealed that she made a pact with a young summoner named Mirfah so that the latter could change his destiny after his comrades have been wiped out just to observe it. Lacking the grandscale plan but trumps most of the villain with her charming and affable demeanor, Amu-Yunos remains one of the most compelling villains that the Summoner and his/her companions have faced.

I'll add this to the drafts. But before that, I need to note something about the Summoner: The summoner's gender is kind of androgynous. And in the 3rd Arc, you can play as either a male or a female. So I'm not sure what kind of the pronunciation that I will use so I used "he/she" instead. Anyways, @43110...You know the drill as always :D

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#3085: Jul 28th 2018 at 8:32:25 PM

@ Elfen, I'm kinda tired atm but I'll get to it in the morning before I submit. I wrote up how I would do it below and I'll post it in the drafts for you to change anything I messed up.

@ Kazuya, that's fine, I'll fix it now and add it to this week's batch... speaking of which:

  • Claymore: Isley, the Silver King, was the first of the Creatures of the Abyss, the first Number 1 of the first and only male generation of Claymores. Upon meeting the powerful Priscilla and learning her power, Isley submits to her, intending on manipulating her to bring the world under his control. Bringing about a war in the North with his former comrades now as Awakened Beings, Isley splits his forces in half to sacrifice them against another Abyssal One and the Claymore Organization while he heads South to defeat the third Abyssal One and take her lands. Bonding with The Heroine Clare's former companion Raki, Isley truly grows to love him and Priscilla as family and even sends them away when the monstrous Abyssal Feeders come for him to save their lives. Even post-mortem, we learn Isley only ever Awakened to begin with voluntarily to stop his former comrades and instilled Raki with a plan to help stop Priscilla if she became a monster, a plan that Raki manages to pull off thanks to his teachings.
  • Fist of the North Star: Raoh himself, Kenshiro's eldest brother disciple in Hokuto Shinken styles himself as Ken-Oh The Conqueror. In a series of brilliant and ruthless campaigns, Raoh carves out his own empire in the wasteland while defeating any martial artists who challenge him and sending them to the prison Cassandra while stealing their scrolls for his own usage and advancement. While sometimes at the disadvantage thanks to Kenshiro or rival forces, Raoh is infamous for pushing back to be stronger than ever through sheer force of will and tenacity. Possessing a strong form of honor, Raoh does not hesitate to execute any in his army who terrorize or violate his citizens and when he faces the warrior Fudoh, Raoh orders his own men to kill him should he take a step back, a request he is furious they ignore. When he finally faces Kenshiro and loses, Raoh embraces his brother with true affection and uses the last of his energy to purge the radioactive toxins from the atmosphere, declaring proudly that he lived his life without regrets as he dies standing proud.
  • Gundam: In a franchise featuring endless wars, these villains truly stand out for their charisma and intelligence in the field of battle:
    • Universal Century:
      • Char Aznable, born Casval Deikun, joins the Zabis by hiding his face behind a mask to lure the Zabis to their demise. Famed for his combat prowess and tactical brilliance, Char lures young Garma Zabi to his end, and later forms a deep enmity with Amuro Ray, compounded when Amuro kills Char's beloved Lalah. Breaking from his fight with Amuro, Char teaches Kycilia a lesson on underestimating him by eliminating her, and years later joins the earth resistance forces against the Titans. Rising to the leadership there, Char gives an impassioned speech to convince the world to rise against the Titans and to believe in the value of space travel. Finally, in Char's Counterattack, Char manipulates young Quess Paraya and all of Zeon to try to drop Axis on the helpless earth to force a great migration into space, planning one final battle to achieve his ends. Finally convinced to surrender his life in Gundam Unicorn, Char makes a final gesture to leave the world to a younger generation, being one of the single most memorable and archetypal villains in the Gundam franchise.
      • Mobile Suit Gundam: Kycilia Zabi was the last member of her family standing for a reason. Fully aware of her elder brother Gihren's moral depravity and mismanagement of the conflict with the Earth Federation, Kycilia uses the One Year War as a cover for a coup d'etat against him, gathering resources and allies, while undermining Gihren's loyalists. Upon discovering through Colonel Killing's betrayal that Gihren had infiltrated her faction and was preparing to frame her for treason, Kycilia moved swiftly, leaking Char's identity to Gihren's fake conspirators and transforming a sham plot into an actual revolt against his rule. Aware that Zeon could no longer win the war, and that the Federation would never make peace while her brother lived, Kycilia journeyed to A Baoa Qu and, on finding out that Gihren had murdered their father, executed him for patricide and assumed command of what was left of Zeon. Killed when Char Aznable unpredictably betrayed her, Kycilia was nevertheless the only Zabi, or indeed, Zeon Admiral, with both a realistic appreciation of their circumstances, and the ruthlessness and will to act accordingly.
      • Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam: Titans Lieutenant Paptimus Scirocco is an Enigmatic Minion who graduates to taking over the organization. A brilliant tactician both in and out of a mobile suit, Scirocco excels at reading potential in his subordinates and outmaneuvers the Anti-Earth Union Group (AEUG) to capture the strategic stronghold of the lunar city Von Braun. Leaving the day-to-day operations of the city in the hands of his antagonistic superior, Scirocco divulges the man's schemes to the AEUG and arranges for his death to gain more dominance within the Titans for himself. Forming an alliance with Haman Khan of Neo Zeon, Scirocco bolsters the strength of the Titans with the Axis military and personally assassinates the Titans leader, Jamitov Hymem, assuming command over the syndicate and blaming Jamitov's death on Haman, rallying his forces to fight against her. Giving a former AEUG pilot he corrupted to his side an eloquent lecture on his ambitions for humanity, Scirocco engages the AEUG personally and reveals he has kept his alliance with Haman to revitalize the strength of his fleet. Even with his armada destroyed by the blast of a colony laser, Scirocco continues to fight Kamille Bidan and even in his dying moments, destroys Kamille's consciousness, unrelentingly unwilling to accept his vanquishment. Emotionally manipulative yet charming, charismatic and stylish, Scirocco proves himself to be every bit as brilliantly Machiavellian as he is mysterious.
      • Mobile Suit Gundam ZZ: Axis warlord and Neo-Zeon Regent for Life Haman Khan came closer to conquering the Earth Sphere than any of the despots to come before or after her in the UC timeline. Intervening in Zeta Gundam's Gryps Conflict on the side of Paptimus Scirocco's Titans, Haman helped turn the battle between the AEUG and the Titans into a full scale civil war within the Earth Federation, from which she emerged as the one true winner following Scirocco's death and the obliteration of the Titans and most of the AEUG. Invading the Earth before the Federation could recover from the war, Haman occupied huge swathes of the planet, and used the Dublin Colony Drop to terrorize Federation officials into surrendering to her, all while employing sheer force of personality to mask her myriad personal issues and hold the backstabbing house of cards that was Axis-Zeon together. Betrayed at the zenith of her power by Glemmy Toto, and faced with internal rebellion by his supporters, Haman quickly moved to quell the descent, meeting Glemmy in open battle. Confronted by series' protagonist Judau Ashta, Haman was persuaded that humanity did not, in fact, need her jackboot on its throat to stop them from killing each other. The only UC Big Bad self-aware enough to come to grips with what she had become, Haman killed herself in the name of giving the world a better future.
    • After Colony:
      • Mobile Suit Gundam Wing: Treize Khushrenada, the leader of OZ, is a brilliant military leader with a chivalrous spirit. Masterminding a purge of his rivals to rise even higher, Treize learns of the Colonies deploying the Gundams against the Earth Government, and conceals their existence to better use them as an advantage, even tricking Gundam pilot Heero into killing the leader of the earth alliance who was planning on making peace with the Colonies. Rebelling against OZ when the Romefeller Foundation takes over and institutes the AI mobile dolls, Treize systematically plays the entire war with his best friend Zechs Merquise to put themselves on opposite ends of the war and create a final, cataclysmic conflict to traumatize humanity off war forevermore. Combining a brilliant mind with a sense of chivalry, Treize is even able to recall the names and faces of every man who has ever died to make his dreams a reality and considers no price too great for peace, even his own life.
    • Correct Century:
      • ∀ Gundam: Guin Sard Lineford is the former lord of the Principality of Inglessa, falling into disgrace with the defeat of his country, though managing to keep his influence thanks to his friendship with the Luziannan princess Lily Borjano. A young, ambitious and visionary lord, Guin successfully leads the forces of Earth against the technologically advanced Moonrace and study their advanced weapons. One of the heroes' smartest allies, Guin eventually betrays them to join Gym Ghingham, taking a role as the leader of a new technological revolution, which only fails because of the barbaric behaviour of the latter. Accepting his defeat at the hands of his former friend and political ally, Lily, Guin saves the protegee of Gym and escapes with her.
    • Cosmic Era:
      • Mobile Suit Gundam SEED: No one hides their true intentions quite like Rau Le Creuset, ZAFT Commander and defective clone. Lacking his own sense of identity, and seeing the face of his "father" every time he looks in the mirror, Le Creuset believes the rest of humanity is suffering just as much as he is, and sets out to put the entire species out of its misery. Playing the role of Patrick Zala's right-hand man, Le Creuset sells ZAFT secrets to Blue Cosmos headman Muruta Azrael, prolonging the Bloody Valentine War, and ensuring that the conflict ends with mutual attempts at genocide, as Azrael tries to nuke the ZAFT colonies and Patrick fires his Wave-Motion Gun at Earth. Successful at masking his encroaching madness until the very end, Le Creuset dies smiling, convinced that the entire world will shortly be following after him.
      • Gundam SEED Destiny: ZAFT Chairman Gilbert Durandal sees himself as the saviour of Earth and nearly persuaded most of the planet to go along with it. Presenting himself as a moderate and a pacifist, Durandal made use of Lord Djibril and Blue Cosmos' blatant evil to launch an invasion of the Earth Sphere disguised as a liberation, using his own reputation for honesty and the services of Lacus Clyne impersonator Meer Campbell to camouflage his intentions, and scattering agents of FAITH throughout the ZAFT military to keep an eye on its loyalty. Preying on the emotional insecurities of those in his service, Durandal turned Decoy Protagonist Shinn Auska into the very thing he hated most, and kept veteran characters like Kira, Athrun, and Lacus out of the picture or unsure if they should oppose him for most of the series. Only killed when he loses the faith of his most loyal enforcer, Rey, Durandal dies convinced that he was right and that without his Destiniy Plan the world is doomed.
    • Post Disaster:
      • Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans: Rustal Elion is one of the Seven Stars who lead the military police force Gjallarhorn. A charismatic nobleman and brilliant military strategist, Rustal has the complete trust of his subordinates. When Rustal's rival in the Seven Stars, McGillis, moves against him, Rustal engineers a small scale war to turn McGillis' allies, Tekkadan, against McGillis. While the war fails to break McGillis and Tekkadan's alliance, it does force Tekkadan to shut down their Earth branch, weakening the organization considerably. When the tensions between Rustal and McGillis lead to civil war, Rustal has one of his subordinates infiltrate McGillis' forces, fire an illegal Dainsleif railgun at Rustal's fleet and commit suicide, giving Rustal justification to annihilate McGillis and Tekkadan. While political tensions ultimately force the Seven Stars to disband in favor of democratically elected leaders, Rustal still comes out ahead as he is elected leader of Gjallarhorn. Rustal remains a hero to the public and becomes the first Big Bad of the franchise to win in the end.
  • Jormungand: Koko Hekmatyar is a brilliant young Arms Dealer who runs her organization with ruthless efficiency. Constantly making advantageous illegal deals and dictating the course of conflicts, Koko adopts the young former child soldier Jonah as a way to keep herself shackled to her humanity, frequently taking on those who attempt to undermine or kill her while leading them to their own demises in breathtakingly impressive fashion. Koko is revealed to despise the arms trade despite her skill with it, and puts Project Jormungand into play: a plan to use a satellite system to seal the skies from humanity, destroying all aircrafts in the sky at once to force world peace, believing herself to be the one to create a true peace for the world, even successfully pushing Jonah into agreeing with the plan at the end, declaring her personal soldiers will be the final soldiers left.
  • Magi: Labyrinth of Magic: Sinbad, King of Sindria and leader of the Seven Seas Alliance is a heroic, charismatic ruler who wages war against the evil organization Al-Thamen. Unknown to most, Sinbad is halfway fallen into depravity and all his seeming benevolence is a front with alternative motives, cultivating allies and pawns alike to use against Al-Thamen, even using mind controlled sleeper agents in other nations to spy through and seize control of them at advantageous moments. Later taking over the world, Sinbad seeks to rewrite reality itself to make a perfect world, even plotting to return everything to raw energy and recreate it the right way. At the end, upon realizing his crimes, Sinbad opts to stand with Alibaba and Aladdin to save the world from the depraved King David, showing himself, whether the hero or villain, to be the best at what he sets his mind out to.
  • Shakugan No Shana:
    • Bel Peol, known as the "Arbiter of Reverse Reasoning" and "The Strategist", lead Bel Masque in the first two seasons. In the past, Bel Peol sacrificed her right eye as part of a plan to retrieve her master's body; later convincing a Denizen into going for a dangerous mission, resulting in his death for her cause. Trying to destroy Misaki City, Bel Peol nearly succeeds in all her attempts thanks to her tactical brilliance and pushes the heroes to their limits. Joining her master, the Snake of the Festival upon his revival, Bel Peol acts as his Dragon and together they usher in the creation of Xanadu, a paradise for Denizens and humans alike, fighting fiercely for it. A ruthless, goal-driven woman, Bel Peol nevertheless showed fondness to her underlings and exceedingly intelligence thinking in the field of battle, proving herself a worthy leader of Bel Masque.
    • The aforementioned Snake of the Festival or "The God of Creation", is the original leader of Bel Masque. Summoned in ancient times by the Denizens of the past, the Snake tried to create a paradise for them before being sealed in the Abyss. In present convincing Protagonist Yuji Sakai to become his vessel, the Snake retakes leadership of Bel Masque, giving a speech so powerful it gains him the complete loyalty of all the present Denizens. Leading the Denizens in the devastating Second Great War, the Snake oversees the brutal combat to have his body recovered from the Abyss. Returning to Misaki City to create Xanadu, the Snake uses his own body and a member of the Trinity as sacrifices to create his new world. Realizing the Denizen's wish for peaceful coexistence, the Snake completes his mission despite massive opposition and returns to sleep, wishing his vessel success for the future.
DC:
  • Batgirl: Lady Shiva, mother of Cassandra Cain, is the best assassin and best martial artist in the world. Once she lost her beloved sister at the hands of David Cain, Shiva was forced to bear Cain's child, who she intended to use to one day surpass her. Shiva regularly guides other heroes and villains alike to become stronger, with a cult around her that worships her as a goddess. Shiva only uses them as pawns in her own schemes, and when she meets her daughter Cassandra she slowly guides her to become Shiva's own ultimate opponent, admitting that she had Cassandra to one day surpass and kill her. Shiva remains one of DC's boldest and most complex villains, always charismatic and dangerous no matter where she appears.
  • Batman:
    • Ra's al Ghul is Batman's most powerful foe, and the only one to be his intellectual peer. Having lived for centuries, Ra's and the secret societies he controls have accumulated wealth to rival nations, and can purchase influence accordingly. Never short on hidden bases and armies of henchmen, Ra's has brought Gotham City to its knees, and has even challenged the Justice League of America, incorporating Batman's own failsafes into his plot to destroy the JLA. A master planner who pays attention to every little detail, Ra's exemplifies the fact that time is less meaningful when you can afford to wait—and Ra's can afford to wait a long, long time.
    • Coming into her own after her father's death, Talia Al-Ghul is one of the few to ever pull one over on Lex Luthor, exposing his crimes to the public and transferring his assets way. Talia later takes over the League of Assassins and upon Batman's death, she purges the remnants of the Black Glove, revealing she has installed a device within her own son to allow herself to control him when needed. After Bruce Wayne's reemergence, Talia masterminds 'Leviathan' to wage war against him, bringing Gotham to the brink of destruction, even resulting in Damian's death and Bruce's near demise as well, with Talia being one of the few to ever push him to the brink, showing herself as truly her father's daughter.
    • Bane appears to be a hulking brute, but is in reality far craftier than he appears. In his first appearance in the Knightfall storyline, Bane achieved fame by psychologically manipulating Batman to drive him to the mental and physical brink before revealing Bane had deduced his secret identity. Ambushing Batman, Bane snapped his back over Bane's knee and proceeded to reign over Gotham until his defeat. Since then, Bane has been acknowledged by even Ra's Al-Ghul as one of the few men worthy to succeed him and has learned from every defeat to rise stronger than before. As a member of the Secret Six, Bane displays a deep affection for his surrogate daughter Scandal Savage and shows a deep sense of honor and loyalty to his team until the end when realizing his potential again, Bane manipulates them into one grand battle and defeat to shed all attachments and emerge stronger than before. Of all Batman's foes, only Bane has the distinction of being the man who once broke the bat himself.
  • Tomahawk: Lord Gerald Shilling is the archnemesis of Revolutionary war hero and frontiersman Tomahawk. A Master of Disguise and consummate professional, Shilling is the chief British spy who will kidnap his mark, and perfectly assume their identity so well that it is nigh impossible to tell there has been a replacement. Shilling proceeds to gather information before making his escape, always leaving behind a perforated shilling piece as a Calling Card. Shilling is also fully capable of daring escapes when his cover is blown, never hesitating to engage Tomahawk in a duel if the situation calls for it and always manages to escape even when captured.
Marvel:
  • Thanos, the Mad Titan and devotee of death, is driven to gain the love of Mistress Death herself. Constantly forming intricate new plans to seize ultimate power, Thanos shows a curious sense of honor, especially to the dying Captain Mar-Vell as he helps guide him to the afterlife. Seizing the Infinity Gauntlet, Thanos erases half the life in the universe before later assisting in undoing his mistakes. Surfacing to manipulate the heroes for the occasional greater good, Thanos later dies in the Annihilation event, but not before leaving a failsafe to help stop the villain Annihilus. Later called back to life in The Thanos Imperative, Thanos arranges the destruction of the monstrous Cancerverse by his clever scheming and later returns again to even defeat his complacent, submissive future self, proclaiming that no matter what happens, only Thanos will ever define his own destiny.
  • Doctor Doom has been Marvel's go-to Big Bad since the 1960s, and with good cause. An Evil Sorcerer, Mad Scientist, and tyrannical despot, Doom is respected and feared throughout Marvel's supervillain community, with both a Norse God and the Devil seeing him as someone to step lightly around. While many villains want to Take Over the World, Doom is one of the few who can actually pull it off, and at times he's reached well beyond even that goal, grasping for godhood with both hands. Capable of punching well out of his weight class, Victor Von Doom is the most dangerous man in the Marvel Universe and always bears watching.
  • Wilson "The Kingpin" Fisk is Marvel's greatest gangster and a consummate survivor. Having outfought, outwitted, and outlasted everyone who has ever tried to take his place, Fisk has secured his position as both New York's reigning mobster and a fixture in the supervillain community. With the capital to dominate the city and a reach that frequently spans continents, Fisk has developed the psychological torment of heroes like Matt Murdock and Peter Parker into an art form, and has left Matt's life in particular in ruins several times over. Always too stubborn to call it quits, Fisk rolls with or shrugs off everything that Marvel's heroes and villains can throw at him, while repeatedly demonstrating that only the most capable of opponents can do the same when he brings all his resources to bear on them. Having risen, fallen, and risen again, Fisk is never out of the game for long, and is always ready to show off the criminal skill and personal gravitas that made him Kingpin of Crime in the first place.
  • Loki himself, Thor's wicked younger brother, is the God of Mischief and frequently forms schemes to embarrass or damage Thor and Asgard itself, which he has repeatedly taken over in some gambit or another. It is later revealed Loki even used time travel to arrange his own adoption at the hands of Odin, murdering his own abusive biological father Laufey, in a clever gambit to get revenge against Asgard in the future. Even when killed, Loki arranges to bring back his younger self and takes him over to return, simultaneously one of Thor's deadliest enemies and beloved brother, rarely lost for his charming smile and a backup plan, who defends Asgard and its people as much as he threatens it.
  • Magneto himself is a Holocaust survivor who is hellbent on seeing that no such evil ever befalls the mutants. Becoming a terrorist, Magneto manipulates his followers, allies and enemies alike, constantly waging war to better the lot of mutantkind, even against his best friend Charles Xavier. At one point Magneto even blackmails the world with nuclear weapons to set up a home for Mutants, and even foiled Doctor Doom's attempts at domination at another point. Deciding to protect the world and mutants in his own way, Magneto has returned countless times to commit acts he admits are unscrupulous, but necessary, constantly keeping himself from slipping too far into true evil while protecting his people from all threats.
  • Baron Helmut Zemo, heir to the deplorable Heinrich Zemo, eventually rejects his father's fascist ideology. One of captain America's greatest enemies, Zemo led a near perfect defeat of The Avengers in the Siege arc, ending by engaging Captain America himself and coming close to victory. Constantly returning with daring new schemes, Zemo even kidnapped abused and neglected children to give them a loving home with himself and his wife, and later formed the Thunderbolts as heroes specifically to give them cover for more villainous activities. Eventually deciding to save the world by conquering it, Zemo returns time and time again, sometimes as a deadly enemy and other times ready to defeat more evil villains than he himself, proclaiming he could never harm a world he works so hard to save.
  • Avengers: Kang the Conqueror, born Nathaniel Richards, turned to conquest due to being bored by a utopia in the 30th century. Forging a galaxies-wide, centuries-spanning empire by his tactical genius, Kang routinely returns to the 20th century to engage the Avengers, repeatedly outsmarting them and always coming close to ultimate victory. Combining an insatiable drive to conquer with an odd sense of honor, Kang often fails solely due to future versions of himself interfering. At one point, Kang even manages to divest his destiny from his future self and forms a council consisting of alternate Kangs, only to completely outwit and destroy them. In The Kang Dynasty, Kang razes Washington DC and masterminds a near complete take over of earth, planning even in defeat to leave his empire to his son Marcus, before being forced to kill Marcus for his betrayal when Marcus rescues him. Kang repeatedly shows he is one of the Avengers' most resilient and dangerous enemies, stopping at nothing until all he can imagine falls under his dominion.
  • Charley Varrick: Crop-duster turned bank robber, Charley Varrick, disguises himself as an injured old man to discreetly complete his theft. Discovering the money he stole belonged to The Mafia, Varrick suggests to his friend, Harman, that they lay low, avoiding spending it for four years, to avoid suspicion. When Harman's avarice leads to him spending, Varrick double-crosses him by swapping their dental records and forging a passport to confuse the hitman sent after them. Acting friendly to the corrupt bank president, Varrick leads the hitman to believe they are associates, resulting in the president being killed. Tricking the hitman into trying to retrieve the money from a car he rigged to explode, Varrick kills him, getting away clean.
  • Cypher: Sebastian Rooks is a dangerous freelance operative who has made a fortune inventing a brainwashing program for the mega corps DigiCorp and Sunway Systems, although loyal only to himself and his lover Rita Foster. In order to secure Rita's safety, Rooks hatches a plot to erase his own identity and become Morgan Sullivan, so he can pass a set of lie detector tests for one company and fail a set of lie detector tests for the other company to infiltrate both, all while appearing as a hapless pawn to both sides. By the end, all his enemies are dead, his plan to steal a specific data file is a complete success, and his real identity is still known only to Rooks and the woman he went to hell and back for.
  • Escape from Alcatraz: Frank Morris is a career criminal and prison escapee who is sent to Alcatraz Island to ensure his permanent imprisonment. While there, the stoic Morris hatches an escape plan with three other inmates that takes months of preparation, outwitting the guards repeatedly to get the necessary tools for the task and keeping their work a secret. Morris and two of his conspirators are the only men to escape Alcatraz and never be caught, only leaving behind a secret message for the Warden as a last taunt to his previous boast that no one will ever escape Alcatraz.
  • Inside Man: Dalton Russel is a bank robber who meticulously plans out a heist in a certain bank, taking hostages and dressing them all the same as himself and his team so the police cannot act against them, before releasing them all. Secretly building a wall in the bank vault, Dalton hides there for days while having only robbed the bank owner's safe deposit vault, leaving clues to expose him as a war criminal who collaborated with the Nazis. Once the time is up, Dalton walks out of the bank completely free and clear, even leaving police negotiator Keith a diamond to propose to his girlfriend with. Freely acknowledging he did everything for the money, Dalton still admits there'd be no point to getting rich if he couldn't look at himself in the mirror.
  • Law Abiding Citizen: Clyde Shelton, after losing his family to the depraved Clarence Darby, schemes for years, studying law and the city to murder Darby himself, and gets arrested, conniving to pull off a series of attacks against all he holds responsible for Darby's freedom. Seeing the judicial system as inherently corrupt, Shelton holds the city in a grip of terror, making his own demands that most are powerless against, to make his statements against what he views as a corrupt system. Even at the end, when he realizes his life is about to end, Clyde maintains sympathy by dying in a dignified manner, only staring at a bracelet his beloved daughter made him before the end.
  • The Name of the Rose: Jorge De Burgos is a blind, elder monk wholly convinced that mankind's salvation lies in complete obedience to God. Abhorring the ancient literature contained in the labyrinth beneath the abbey for what he perceives as its blasphemous humor, Jorge uses a book with a poisoned page to kill several monks who had knowledge of the secret library, which prompts the Abbey to call for the Jesuit William of Baskerville to investigate the mysterious deaths. When William eventually discovers the library, Jorge tries to trick William into touching the poisoned book, and when this fails, eats the poisoned pages himself and sets fire to the library, ensuring Christendom's supremacy for centuries to come.
  • The Dresden Files:
    • Gentleman Johnnie Marcone is constantly putting himself in a position where it's absolutely necessary for people who hate him to cooperate with him, whether because he's the lesser of several evils or simply the only option. Even before getting involved with the supernatural, Marcone brought all of Chicago's organized crime under his control. Upon getting involved in the supernatural, Marcone never fails to come out on top, repeatedly outmaneuvering and helping to defeat forces far more powerful and older than he is. Marcone even becomes the first mortal signatory to the supernatural Accords. Fully aware of his limitations as a man, Marcone is insanely prepared for supernatural threats and takes measures accordingly, frequently destroying threats that come for him. Marcone is also driven by a desire to protect innocent bystanders from harm, his iron will defined by a little girl who was once shot by a bullet intended for him. A complex, ruthless man, Marcone frequently shows why he is one of Harry Dresden's great allies and enemies often at the same time.
    • The White Court vampire Lara Raith, having been sexually enslaved by her own father, the White King, overcomes his control and cripples him into an empty shell that she uses as a puppet while she remains the true power behind the throne. Lara then proceeds to manipulate the rival families of the White Court into attacking female magic users too weak for the White Council to notice, betting on the fact that Harry Dresden will get involved and wipe out all of the challengers for leadership of the White Court. Lara is a consummate manipulator, frequently employing the aid of people who have reason to detest her and getting them to work towards her purposes. Lara is also secretly a fighter in the Oblivion War, seeking to exterminate ancient beings far too deadly to coexist with humanity. Despite freely acknowledging herself as a monster, Lara has a conscience, even if she will happily play her family, friends, allies and enemies to secure her goals and remain in power.
    • Martin, a seemingly innocuous member of the Fellowship of St. Giles, is a former spy for the Red Court in the resistance against them. Seeing all the horror and evil committed by his former masters shattered Martin's loyalty, making him a triple agent out to destroy them whatever the cost. Sabotaging a duel between Duke Paolo Ortega and Harry Dresden to keep a war between the Red Court and the White Council of Wizards ongoing, Martin later leaks information of his comrade Susan's daughter with Harry for the plans of Paolo's widow Arianna Ortega, letting her set up a sacrifice to wipe out an entire bloodline with its youngest member. Martin then manipulates a betrayal of the heroes to trick Susan into killing him, turning her into a full vampire so Harry is forced to sacrifice her, the youngest Red Court member, to exterminate the entire bloodline in order to save his daughter, dying with full satisfaction at his plans achieved.
  • Attila: Flavius Aetius is a Roman general and strategist whose patriotism is matched only by his cunning and charisma. Released by Emperor Valentinian's mother Placidia from prison to fight their enemies, he implicates Placidia in an assassination that Aetius foils to isolate her from the emperor. To deal with the Visigoths and the Huns, Aetius desecrates Hunnic corpses and makes the Visigoths look responsible to forge an alliance with the Huns, and takes Attila to Rome to impress the young prince with its splendor. After Attila, now king, builds up the Hunnic Empire and turns on the Romans, Aetius orchestrates a plot to assassinate Attila by convincing a slave girl with a grudge against the Huns to seduce Attila and kill him on their wedding night. Even when Aetius is forced to sacrifice his daughter for the good of Rome, he ensures that the man who took her from him, King Theodoric, will be killed in the final battle against the Huns. Aetius returns to Rome in triumph, and his murder at the hands of the emperor signals the final nail in the coffin for the once mighty empire, for there were no more men capable of defending it.
  • Brimstone: The Devil himself is the one who manipulates The Hero, Zeke Stone, into going to earth to reclaim 113 damned souls who fled hell, holding out the promise of a new hope of heaven over Stone's head. Throughout the series, the Devil is charming, witty and sarcastic, constantly monitoring events and arranging things to have Zeke return his quarry to hell while demonstrating a frightening amount of insight, while always teasing Zeke and pushing him to do his job. While playing Zeke constantly, the Devil 's main interest is keeping the status quo, while always willing to welcome the new damned souls into his domain.
  • Forever Knight: The sire of Nicholas Knight, Lucien LaCroix was a brilliant Roman general turned into a vampire by his own daughter Divia. Horrified at the corruption Divia succumbed to, with her even suggesting they become lovers, LaCroix seemingly destroyed and entombed her. Becoming a brilliant, dangerous vampire, LaCroix once arranged for Nick to be hanged by peasants to trick him into succumbing to his killer instinct once Nick renounced his old ways. In the present, LaCroix frequently manipulates Nick and all around him, even having his own radio show as the Night Crawler where he frequently talks about his philosophies and his schemes. Always charismatic and compelling, LaCroix also admits to certain standards and always maintains his complex relationship with Nicholas.
  • Forgotten Realms:
    • Asmodeus, the Lord of the Nine Hells, is the Wicked Cultured, Affably Evil, handsome and brilliant Archdevil who, ever since his fall from heaven, has been running a grand chess game that few can even begin to understand. Asmodeus knows every plot against him by the other archdevils and delights in thwarting or subverting them to his own benefit while making his own plots that can take centuries or even millennia to come to fruition in ways that benefit him. At one point, Asmodeus was even deposed from his throne in Nessus, only to later reveal it was simply a ruse to root out potential traitors. Since becoming a god, Asmodeus has only increased his power and effectiveness with some fearing he is perhaps the greatest threat to all the forces of good in existence.
    • Jarlaxle Baenre, third son of Yvonnel Baenre, survived his birth and sacrifice against all odds, growing into a talented mercenary leader who thrives off the chaos of Menzoberranzan. Constantly hiring out his forces, the Bregan D'Aerthe while playing multiple sides in any conflict, Jarlaxle later goes to the surface, manages to win over nearly everyone he comes across and even uses an attempted coup from his underlings as a way to buy himself a vacation, eliminating the worst traitors and leaving the one Drow he can trust in charge of the group before manipulating powerful kingdoms, ancient dragons and monsters into doing what benefits him most. Jarlaxle is so successful and talented at his games that there are those who wonder if he is actually blessed by the normally virulently misandrist Lolth as a chosen of chaos.
    • Gromph Baenre is the archmage of Menzoberranzan and a genius manipulator who is the undisputed master of the city's wizards. Keeping control through his own power and constantly playing his rivals against one another, Gromph showcases his penchant for manipulation by being one of the powers behind his sister Triel's throne and when the Priestesses of Lolth lose their power with the Goddess's absence, Gromph takes it upon himself to guide the city in the meantime. After being defeated by the evil lich Dyyr, Gromph is captured by a mind flayer and shows he prepared for a possibility with an impressive Memory Gambit that even programmed his own reactions to achieve it. He then attempts to eliminate one of the architects of the invasion of his city by fusing his hand to a crystal that burns like the sun when the other drow slips into the plane of shadow, trapping him there. Mixing an odd nobility with a ruthless ambition, Gromph repeatedly demonstrates just why he is one of the oldest and most powerful Drow alive.
    • King Obould Many Arrows is a brutal orc chieftain who unites the fractured orc clans into a single, unified army and unleashes them upon the north and Silverymoon. In a series of brilliant campaigns, Obould carves out the Kingdom of Dark Arrows, becoming the personal chosen of the orc god Gruumsh in the process. Obould also completely subverts a group of Drow who think they can use him, killing their priestess at the end after she attempts to murder him. Later even assisting the heroes against another army loyal to Gruumsh's old ways, Obould then sues for peace from a position of strength, knowing it will be too costly to dislodge his people from their new home. Peacefully dying later in his sleep and being made an exarch by his god, Obould is without doubt the most successful and ingenious arc to set foot on Faerun and remains one of Drizzt Do'Urden's most deadly foes.
  • Antony and Cleopatra: The cunning Octavius Caesar aims to seize control of Rome and rebuild it as an Imperium with himself at the head. Manipulating Antony and Cleopatra both, Octavius acts to remove the pirate Sextus Pompey without Antony's assent and seizes his lands, also removing their fellow Triumvir Lepidus from power. Octavius also proceeds with marrying his sister Octavia to Antony, knowing Antony will be unable to resist Cleopatra, allowing Octavius to lay another charge against Antony in making war on him. Finally Octavius wins the war with Egypt, resulting with Antony and Cleopatra's deaths, admitting sympathy for them despite everything and ordering them to be given an honorable funeral before going on to reign as Rome's first true emperor.
  • Brave Frontier: Zamburg ruler, Cosmic Demon Amu-Yunos is an ancient, extra-dimensional being that seeks her own death to alleviate her boredom. Seeing the Summoner as a candidate for helping her end her own life, Amu-Yunos challenges them to defeat her lest she destroy Ishgria. When defeated by the Summoner, Amu-Yunos is thrilled at the excitement of death and helpfully warns the Summoner that they will have to fight another version of her. Amu-Yunos is also revealed to have made a pact with a young summoner whose comrades had been wiped out, allowing him the chance to change his destiny. Though Amu-Yunos simply seeks an entertaining end to her immortal existence, her charm and jovial nature made her to be one of the most compelling foes to be faced by the Summoner and their companions.
  • Dishonored:
    • Delilah Copperspoon, master of the Brigamore Witches ia a brilliant, determined witch and the illegitimate sister of former Empress Jessamine Kaldwin. Once cast into the streets, Delilah clawed her way tot he top, even earning the attention and Mark of the godlike Outsider himself. Seeking the throne, Delilah builds the Brigamore coven and proceeds to enact a scheme where she will replace Jessamine's daughter Emily's soul with her own, sending her strongest witches against the assassin Daud just to insure they won't be around to betray her when she replaces her niece. When this fails, Delilah is cast into the void but by sheer force of will she returns and assists her old allies to restore her to the material plane before launching a coup against her niece, effectively usurping the Kaldwin throne. Not satisfied, Delilah plots to even usurp the Outsider himself, a scheme the Outsider fears Delilah is completely capable of enacting. Ruthlessly dedicated to her own advancement and hell bent on forcing her vision upon the world, Delilah demonstrates just how high a once penniless urchin can rise with sheer force of will and hatred within her.
    • Daud himself, the Knife of Dunwall is a genius assassin who even attracted the notice of The Outsider. Forming The Whalers, Daud performed daring assassinations for the benefit of the corrupt, before accepting and completing a job on Empress Jessamine. Feeling true remorse when he saw what his deeds had done, Daud later dismantles the Brigamore Witch cult and tricks Delilah into being trapped in the void. Returning years later, Daud even puts together a plan to destroy the Outsider himself, using his one true friend Billie Lurk to carry it out.
  • Final Fantasy: An imaginative setting with a rich variety of characters has provided villains as brilliant and charming as they are devious:
    • Main Series:
      • Final Fantasy IX: Kuja is an Artificial Human created by the warlock Garland to spread war and destruction across the planet of Gaia with the goal of transforming Gaia into a copy of Terra, Garland's homeworld. Aware he is not trusted and will be disposed of once Garland can afford to be rid of him, Kuja pulls double-duty on his villainy, aiding Queen Brahne in taking over much of Gaia while discretely seeking Eidolons, the one power Kuja believes Garland fears. When Kuja learns of Trance, he shifts focus to acquiring the power for himself and does so. Trance Kuja is strong enough to kill Garland and pushes the playable characters to the brink of death, Kuja sparing them only to contemplate how to kill them to best show his "gratitude" for their help in achieving his Trance. If not for the maddening revelation he will die soon and the subsequent Suicidal Cosmic Temper Tantrum it provoked, Kuja was set to declare himself the ruler of both worlds, and no one would have been able to stand against him. Along the way to this near-victory he manipulates hero and villain alike to pursue his goals, adjusts his plans on the fly to accommodate for setbacks, and never loses his sense of style and charisma.
      • Final Fantasy XII: Vayne Carudas Solidor is the, calm, collected, brilliant, devious son of the Archadian Emperor. Vayne manages to march in to the land of Dalamasca to depose the king before giving a speech so powerful, even the people who despise him openly cheer. He follows this by organizing a feast to bait the resistance into attack, ready to kill or capture most of them in a trap. Vayne's ultimate goal is to defy the gods themselves, using the material Nethicite to empower himself as the Dynast King of Ivalice and free humanity from the divine Occuria's will, a goal for which no price is too great, even if he has to stain his hands in blood endlessly.
      • Final Fantasy XV: Ardyn Izunia, true name Ardyn Lucis Caelum, poses as a "man of no consequence", but is far older and far more devious than he initially seems. As the Chancellor of the Niflheim Empire, Ardyn arranges for the invasion and destruction of Lucis's capital city Insomnia, and later reveals his true colors by fatally stabbing the game's heroine Luna upon her summoning of Leviathan, resulting in greater damage and the deaths of nearly everyone in Altissia. With Luna's death, an affliction known as the Starscourge is allowed to run rampant, turning many into monstrous Daemons as the nights grow longer. Fixated on his chosen nemesis, Prince Noctis, Ardyn tricks him into almost murdering his best friend Prompto by making Noct see Prompto as Ardyn. Turning on Niflheim, Ardyn lets Daemons run rampant throughout the city, annihilating it and turning many of the people into Daemons themselves, leaving them in hideous pain. In addition, Ardyn reveals he is the one who taught Niflheim how to convert people to living weapons to begin with, kills Luna's brother Ravus when he finally had a change of heart and decided to help Noct and tricks Noct into being absorbed by the Crystal that is the source of power for the line of Lucis so Noct may arise as the Chosen King and Ardyn may destroy him. Having once been rejected by the land he served and saved, Ardyn showcases his devious charm in every scene he appears in, manipulating almost every event in the game, rarely ever at loss for a smile and a witty remark as one of the most memorable and charming villains in the Final Fantasy canon.
    • Spin-offs and Sub-series:
      • Final Fantasy Tactics: Delita Hyral, who, in a game full of competing masterminds, finishes the story standing on top of the Gambit Pileup. Out-manoeuvring everyone else to become a king by marrying the reigning princess Ovelia, Delita uses the hero Ramza to actually do the hard work, playing off Ramza's accomplishments to claim his triumphs as Delita's own. Delita betrays those he feels he has to in order to rise to the top, ending by placing himself on the throne. While he soon realizes that he is utterly alone at the top, Delita manages to secure a place for himself on the throne despite his commoner birth in the ruthlessly classist land of Ivalice.
      • Bravely Default: Konoe Kikyo, the Ninja, is a quirky, shy, and utterly relentless Eternian assassin tasked with taking out the leaders of the Shieldbearers. Disposing of and disguising herself as the Goodman family housekeeper Nastassja, Kikyo forges invitations to a banquet in Agnès Oblige's name and sends them to Commander Daniel Goodman and Officers Steiner and Neuer. Once they're all gathered, Kikyo locks them inside the house, feigns her own death to prevent suspicion, discretely murders both Steiner and Neuer while pinning the blame on Daniel's wife Eleanor, and nearly manages to kill Daniel as well when he separates himself from the party, only stopped at the last second by Agnès' crew. Despite this merciless cunning, Kikyo is shown to be rather pleasant when off-duty, values her fellow Eternians as friends, and ultimately turns a new leaf come Bravely Second.
  • The Witch and the Hundred Knight: The Swamp Fairy, Mani—previously known as the witch, Aguni—was sacrificed to the Eldritch Abomination Niike millennia before the present time, then reborn, vowing vengeance on the world that rejected her. Manipulating Metallia and a sentient piece of Niike, the Hundred Knight, Mani sees to it the duo destroy the pillars sealing Niike's power to resurrect her beloved and together destroy the world they despise. Killing Grand Witch Uruka to stop interference with her plans, Mani comes moments from completing her goal and even with Niike slain, chooses to fight until the bitter end.
  • The Witcher:
    • Emperor Emhyr var Emreis, the White Flame Dancing on the Barrows of his enemies, is a cunning Evil Overlord once overthrown in Nilfgaard as a prince. Surviving a curse and being hunted, he learned of the ancient prophecy of the Elder Blood, and married Princess Pavetta of Cintra to sire series heroine Cirilla. Eventually faking his death as the knight Duny, he returned to Nilfgaard, seizing the throne and committed to a brutal, expansionist war. Always learning from his errors, Emhyr eventually realized he loved his daughter Ciri too much to complete the prophecy by fathering a child with her and released her to Geralt, trusting him to protect her. Once again return to conquer the Northern Kingdoms, Emhyr uses Letho the Kingslayer to sow discord and leave the land open to his armies while asking Geralt to find Ciri again. In most endings, Emhyr ends up victorious, eliminating all would-be threats to his rule and can even abdicate in favor of Ciri, content at achieving all he wanted.
    • The Witcher: Jacques de Aldersberg, Grand Master of the Order of the Flaming Rose, is the mastermind behind all major events in the first game. Having made power plays with both people in high places as well as in the criminal underworld, he sets a plan in motion to destabilize the kingdom of Temeria, leading his knights on a crusade against non-humans and thus provoking the militant Scoia'tael, which ultimately ends in a bloody civil war. This puts King Foltest into a delicate situation, where he either has to give Jacques full authority to end the revolt or do nothing, making him look like a weak ruler. His knights are secretly funded by the drug money his ally, the criminal organization Salamandra, makes for him, which allows Jacques to present the order as humble heroes of the people who fulfill their needs for free. His ultimate plan is turning mankind into highly advanced mutants with the help of the stolen Witcher Secrets, and leading them southwards to survive the incoming White Frost. Throughout his conversations with Geralt, who later turns out was his former adoptive father, he tries to convince him of the righteousness of his cause, having sacrificed everything to save humanity (wether it wants it or not) in an almost flawlessly executed scheme.
    • The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings: Letho of Gulet is a talented Witcher who joins with Nilfgaard to create a homeland for his fellow Witchers. Letho becomes the Kingslayer, a feared assassin who uses his wiles to position himself close to the rulers of the northern kingdoms and assassinates them, provoking chaotic reactions in order to weaken the north so Nilfgaard will be able to invade. Against Geralt, Letho shows himself to be a crafty, skilled fighter who even considers the White Wolf a friend worthy of the greatest respect. A brutish looking man, Letho also uses the appearance of Dumb Muscle to his advantage so none know how truly intelligent and dangerous he is until it's too late.
    • The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt: Gaunter O'Dimm, AKA Master Mirror or evil incarnate is the cunning devil of the Witcher-verse. Traveling and punishing the arrogant in inventive ways, Gaunter makes deals with people and takes their souls when he has fulfilled his end. A master of Exact Words, Gaunter eventually conscripts Geralt to help fulfill a bargain with the immortal swordsman Olgierd von Everec, completely tricking Olgierd before moving to claim his soul, only stopped if Geralt participates in a final contest with him. Despite being a timeless evil being, Gaunter is unmistakably charming and pleasant, willing to play to the letter of his deals and treats enemy and ally alike with unmistakable pleasantness, quick to answer any slight with retribution.
  • Beast Wars: Megatron, a rogue Predacon general who took the name of the Decepticon leader, is a brilliant, charismatic and ruthless foe who repeatedly comes up with new schemes to defeat the Maximals under Optimus Primal. Faking the Predacons' destruction to gain an advantage or using spies and psychological warfare, Megatron even uses cover of a truce to betray Optimus and succeeds in temporarily destroying him. Utilizing his soldiers as expendable resources, Megatron routinely comes within inches of victory, even manipulating a former Decepticon into working for him so he can destroy the sleeping Autobots and completely change history. By the sequel, Beast Machines, Megatron turns out to have taken over Cybertron and repeatedly keeps the Maximals on the run.
  • Class of the Titans: The Big Bad Cronus, lord of Time and the king of the Titans, is the ruthless villain who plots his own escape from Tartarus and promptly asks the Oracle of Delphi for what can stop him. Upon learning of the young would-be heroes, Cronus repeatedly showcases new plans that put him close to completely dominating the world with the young heroes struggling to match him. Cronus takes hostages to lure others into traps, including gods and even fakes his own defeat to take over the underworld. Rarely at a loss, Cronus always rebounds from his defeats and even ends the series defeated but alive and powerful as ever, plotting to weaponize the now unknown future to complete all his plans and dominate the world.
  • Justice League: Doom: Vandal Savage, the Big Bad, steals all of Batman's plans aimed at incapacitating the Justice League should they ever turn to darkness or prove too dangerous, taking them and making them far more lethal and dangerous. Recruiting his very own Legion of Doom, Vandal has them lure the League into traps before putting the countermeasures into placing, nearly killing every single member of the League in a single night. Vandal reveals his true plans to cause a solar flare to strike earth so he may cause the conflict that he feels is necessary for human advancement and cause the world to submit to his rule, offering to share the rulership with his new Legion. A charming, sophisticated villain, Vandal shows he has surpassed the savagery he has born into, nearly completely erasing the League in one fell stroke with the world falling perilously close to Vandal's utter victory.
  • Total Drama: Alejandro is a smooth talking Dashing Hispanic, who describes his best quality as his ability to smell a person's weakness and exploit it in seconds. Serving as the Big Bad of his debut season, Total Drama World Tour. Declaring to take the contestants down "one by one", Alejandro first targets Team Victory, playing on Harold's sense of honor to get him to quit and leaving Bridgette stuck to a flagpole. When Team Victory dwindles down to only DJ, he easily wins over DJ's trust after painting a fake Egyptian symbol on Irene, in an attempt to make him believe his animal curse has been "lifted", before "accidentally" confessing that the whole thing was fake. When Duncan returns, Alejandro wastes no time exposing Duncan's infidelity, putting a target on Duncan's back as well as weakening Team Amazon. Making it to the finale of the season, despite being Out-Gambitted by Heather. Alejandro makes up for it in All Stars by stealing her immunity idol, turning her own manipulation of the team against her. Charming, devious and ruthless Alejandro's Villain Song; This is How We Will End It, fittingly depicted him as a puppetmaster pulling at everyone's strings to the end.
  • Fire Emblem page
  • Pokemon page

Page quotes:

Comic Books:
"I'm a respectable businessman — I don't make deals with criminal madmen... but the way I see it, after tonight — you owe me! Oh, and Joker — I always collect my debts."
Lex Luthor, World's Finest (Vol 2) #2 "Worlds Collide"

Edited by 43110 on Jul 29th 2018 at 11:06:53 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#3086: Jul 28th 2018 at 8:36:37 PM

[up] Ah alright, take your time...Also, GDI the Page-Lock is bugging me just bugs me

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
DrakeClawfang Since: Apr, 2010
#3087: Jul 28th 2018 at 8:53:22 PM

Here's the EP for The Emperor.

What is the work?

The work is Dissidia Final Fantasy, a crossover in the Final Fantasy focusing on two gods: Cosmos, Goddess of Harmony, and Chaos, God of Discord. The two gods summon warriors from other Final Fantasy worlds to their own world to fight on their behalf in cycles of war. Each warrior appears in the cycle with no memories, but recovers their memories as they fight and the cycles continue. Being slain in a previous cycle damages one's memories of the cycles.

Who is the character?

The character is The Emperor, the main villain of Final Fantasy II who appears in Dissidia as a Warrior of Chaos.

What does he do?

The Emperor is one of the veterans of Chaos' forces and has seen battle in many cycles. He seeks to break free of the cycles of war and make his own play for power, but recognizes he cannot challenge Chaos directly since Chaos is a Physical God.

In the 12th cycle, Cosmos imbues her chosen warriors with her light, that will grow and mature in them as they continue to fight, and will eventually manifest in the form of a Crystal that will grant them a new power. During this cycle, Tidus, the protagonist of Final Fantasy X, appears with no memory. The Emperor recognizes Tidus as the son of Jecht and the love interest of Yuna, who are Warriors of Cosmos in this cycle. The Emperor spars with Tidus to awaken his memories of hatred for Jecht, and sends him off to fight him. When Tidus confronts Jecht, Yuna intervenes and reaches out to him, but the Emperor appears and deals a lethal blow to Tidus. As Yuna fights the Emperor, Jecht imbues Tidus with the light he received from Cosmos, saving his life at the cost of Jecht's own. The Emperor takes Jecht's unconscious body to Chaos and convinces Chaos to grant Jecht his dark power and convert him into one of his warriors.

In the 13th cycle, Tidus is now a Warrior of Cosmos and Jecht is a Warrior of Chaos, who has no memories of the past cycles due to his fall in the 12th cycle. The Emperor has an unspoken plan to defeat Cosmos the other villains follow, and tells Jecht that if he defeats Tidus in battle, his plan will allow the two of them to go home. Jecht goes to fight him but the Emperor stops him, telling him that Tidus only wishes to fight him out of hate, and that kind of fight will not help their plan. The Emperor dismisses Jecht and fights Tidus himself, telling him the Crystal will not shine for him out of hate.

On advice from others, Jecht attacks the Emperor for his interference. Tidus witnesses the fight with Firion, and when the Emperor leaves and a weakened Jecht retreats, Tidus follows him so the two of them can have their battle on their own terms. After this departure the Emperor returns to speak to Firion, mocking him as a tool of Cosmos who only fights because he is told to. This prompts Firion to realize his true motivations for fighting. An eventual plot revelation is that the Crystals shine when a warrior exhibits resolve/true feelings/motives/etc. Tidus fighting Jecht on his own terms grants him his Crystal, and Firion refuting the Emperor's words and defeating him earns him his.

When all the warriors have earned their Crystals, they return to Cosmos, who is destroyed by Chaos. Over the course of this point of the story, the Warriors of Chaos explain the Crystals are fragments of Cosmos' power, and by granting them to her warriors they weakened herself enough for Chaos to kill her. The Warriors of Cosmos should vanished with the death of Cosmos, but the power of their Crystals has allowed them to endure, at least for a while.

The Emperor's true motive is revealed in a conversation with Jecht. While he granted Tidus his power in the 12th cycle, some of Cosmos' power remained with him. When he fought Tidus after turning against the Emperor, Jecht's own Crystal was awakened, one attuned to Chaos instead of Cosmos, but he didn't get a chance to claim it since he faded away after the defeat; the Emperor claimed it instead. He intends for the Warriors of Cosmos to destroy Chaos before they fade, while the Dark Crystal the Emperor has taken will allow him to remain afterward; with both gods and their summoned warriors gone, the Emperor will be alone to rule over this world.

En route to Chaos' domain, the Warriors of Cosmos find the Emperor's lair where he awaits the god's death, and destroy him before advancing forward.

Is he a good schemer?

Absolutely. The Emperor's plan involves manipulating the heroes into personal growth or epiphanies to trigger the appearances of the Crystals so Cosmos can be destroyed. He saw the potential in the relationships of Yuna, Tidus, and Jecht, and manipulated the three against each other to further his personal goal of absolute power while also enacting his plan to kill Cosmos. He even allows himself to lose fights against Jecht and Firion in order to advance his goal. Dialogue in the game implies that while some of the villains are too erratic and selfish to be loyal (Kefka), many of them still follow the Emperor's plans for the Warriors of Cosmos.

Is he magnificent?

The Emperor is arrogant and condescending, especially to the Warriors of Cosmos, but puts on at least an act of polite aristocracy when dealing with them. While a couple of the villains suspect the Emperor has ulterior motives for his plans, they don't think too much of these suspicions because his plan is to kill Cosmos and permanently win the cycles of war, which is what all of them want. The only person to suspect the Emperor at length is Golbez, who is The Mole and is secretly aiding the Warriors of Cosmos. On the other hand it's heavily implied the Emperor knows Golbez is a traitor and allows him to continue with his ways because he can still use Golbez's actions to his own ends.

The only flaw in his plans is, well, dying — it happens through no real fault of his own, the heroes attack him and the Emperor is unable to defeat them. And, while the gameplay is 1v1, in-story the Warriors of Cosmos are all together, so the Emperor was fighting 1v10. I think his loss is understandable in such circumstances.

Verdict

The Emperor manipulates ally and enemy alike in order to make them destroy each other, allowing him to rule the world with power stolen from a goddess.

"Death, life, even the divine shall come under my rule! For the only one suited to rule is I!"

Edited by DrakeClawfang on Jul 28th 2018 at 12:08:51 PM

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#3088: Jul 28th 2018 at 8:55:54 PM

Yes to Dissidia!Emperor. I prefer his showing there than in FF 2.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#3089: Jul 28th 2018 at 9:03:51 PM

Yeah for Dissidia!Emperor, doesn't sound like he quite hits Smug Snake levels of arrogance and much less of a dick than his original version.

DrakeClawfang Since: Apr, 2010
#3090: Jul 28th 2018 at 9:09:01 PM

I pondered if he would be a Smug Snake too. He has the arrogance, disdain for others, and scheming down, but there is one key missing attribute - his arrogance never bites him in the ass, he has the full ability to back up his ego with good plans and competent fighting skills. So I don't think he would count.

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#3091: Jul 28th 2018 at 9:19:11 PM

[tup] Shiva and the Emperor.

[down] Zap away [tup][tup][tup]

Edited by DocSharp on Jul 28th 2018 at 9:30:24 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#3092: Jul 28th 2018 at 9:27:03 PM

Alright, having reread the conversation on him, there was a bit of talk on cutting Lyon, a villain from The Sacred Stones: Apple brought up the idea of cutting him and Lighty and I said we were fine with doing so. Can we get some more folks weighing in to have a bit more conclusion so I know what to do with the page before I have it locked tomorrow? Cheers!

Edit: Thanks to the mentioned problems with agency and his whole character emphasizing tragedy over magnificence, Lyon is currently sitting at 4-3, I'll cut him for now and if I wake up to a sudden demand for him to stay, I'll just add him back in.

Edited by 43110 on Jul 28th 2018 at 12:53:36 PM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#3094: Jul 28th 2018 at 9:30:47 PM

[tup] to Dissidia!Emperor... Also, why did Leon ended up getting cut?

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
DrakeClawfang Since: Apr, 2010
#3095: Jul 28th 2018 at 9:33:10 PM

And Galenth Dysley

What's the work?

The work is Final Fantasy XIII, a science-fiction JRPG. In this world most humans live on the floating city of Cocoon over the planet Pulse. The planet is home to demi-gods called fal'Cie. A fal'Cie can appoint a human as a servant, making them a l'Cie, bearing a brand somewhere on their body. Upon their choosing the l'Cie receive a vision of their Focus, a task or objective they must complete. Completion has them rewarded with eternal life as a crystal, a state called crystal stasis, until the fal'Cie awakens them to serve again; failure transforms them into a Cie'th, basically a zombie.

Who's the character?

The character is Galenth Dysley, the main antagonist of XIII. Dysley masquerades as a human overseeing Cocoon's government as Primarch but is actually the fal'Cie Barthandelus, the leader of Cocoon's fal'cie. For ease of writing in this EP, the character will be referred to as Galenth Dysley. Dysley's objective is to fulfill the orders given to him by his creator, the deity Lindzei, and find Etro's Gate, the gate to the afterlife. His plan to do so involves the mass extinction of humanity, which will create a flood of souls that force the gate open.

What's he do?

1,300 years ago the floating city of Cocoon was created by some fal'Cie led by Barthandelus, who invited the humans of Pulse to live in the city, preaching it as a paradise. Barthandelus deliberately fostered fear and prejudice between Cocoon and Pulse, causing war 700 years later, 600 years before the main game. Two citizens of Pulse, Fang and Vanille, were appointed l'Cie of the Pulse fal'Cie Anima, and given the Focus to transform into the legendary monster Ragnarok and destroy Cocoon. Before this was done, the goddess Etro intervened and forced the two into crystal stasis prematurely and Anima was left dormant. During reconstruction of Cocoon after the war ended, Dysley had the Vestige containing Anima, Vanille, and Fang, brought into Cocoon. For centuries afterward Dysley waited for Anima to wake up and revive its l'Cie that would become Ragnarok. In the intervening years it is heavily implied Dysley maintained autocratic rule over Cocoon as Primarch, changing up his human guise to avoid detection and using his powers and influence to ensure the elections for Primatch always swung in his favor.

When Anima awakens and revives Vanille and Fang, Dysley monitors their actions. Realizing they have no intent of becoming Ragnarok, he turns attention to Cocoon resident Serah Farron, who happened into Anima's lair and was branded a l'Cie. Using fear and hate of Pulse, Dysley enacted the Purge, rounding up anyone who may have had contact with Serah or Anima for "relocation" - it's to kill them all and most people suspect that, causing many to resist with force. During the Purge, Serah's sister Lightning, her fiancee Snow, and the Cocoon civilians Hope and Sazh, are all branded l'Cie by Anima (Vanille also accompanies this group but retains her original brand) with the Focus to destroy Cocoon. Serah is crystallized upon bringing the group together and they kill Anima.

Dysley sends his familiar, a robotic owl named Menvra, to surveil the group as they flee the area. Dysley takes a military commander, Cid Raines, and brands him as one of his l'Cie, with the Focus of aiding the group in completing their Focus. It is implied Dysley uses his influence to ensure the safety of the group in their travels while giving them enough resistance to strengthen them for the task he has in mind for them. While Cid gathers Lightning, Snow, Hope, and Fang, Vanille and Sazh go off on another path and are abducted. Dysley announces their execution as a trap to lure the l'Cie to his airship, the Palamecia, where the execution will take place.

The six confront Dysley, who kills his airship staff and reveals his true colors as the fal'Cie Barthandelus. He battles the group to test their power and then lectures them on how they must complete their Focus and destroy Cocoon. Serah was the pawn Anima used to gather more l'Cie for the task, and they will accomplish this by killing Orphan, the dormant fal'Cie that acts as the power core of Cocoon — if Orphan dies, Cocoon will fall from the skies and crash into the planet below. Dysley sends the group on an airship to the Fifth Ark, a l'Cie training facility, to strengthen themselves further. Aboard the Ark, Cid rebels against his Focus and tries to kill the group, but is defeated and crystallized, since the fight against them increased their powers and thus he technically completed his Focus.

The group escapes the Fifth Ark and flies to Pulse to make contact with the residents, but find none - the planet's surface is abandoned, Cocoon is all that's left of humanity. Dysley comes before the group and reveals he has resigned his position as Primarch, and appointed a revived Cid as replacement. The militia of Cocoon fear Cid is a fal'Cie puppet and will soon turn against him, sparking a civil war that will destroy Orphan and Cocoon. After a fight with the group, Dysley leaves an airship for them to return to Cocoon and try to stop him if they wish, which they utilize. On Cocoon monsters from Pulse invade the city, teleported there by Dysley. They enter Orphan's Cradle, the passage to Orphan, and find the militia transformed into Cie'th; the threat of them harming Orphan was a lie by Dysley to get the group to come back, but they press onwards anyway to finally kill him.

In Orphan's chamber Dysley against demands the group fulfill their Focus, and when they refuse he fights them once more. This time he is destroyed and sinks into the pool containing Orphan. However, this too was Dysley's plan — he's been a Death Seeker all along, wishing to be reunited with his master Lindzei, and his death grants Orphan the power to awaken and attack the party, forcing their hand to destroy it. This causes Cocoon to begin to fall, but Fang and Vanille transform into Ragnarok and use its power to stop its descent, generating a massive crystal pillar to keep it aloft.

Is he a good schemer?

Dysley spends centuries waiting for the opportune time to make his move, maintains surveillance on the heroes to anticipate and manipulate their actions, and is basically really, really good at playing everyone for a pawn. The party repeatedly plays into his hands, not out of ignorance or foolishness, but because Dysley has forced their hand in some manner. There are myriad ways he could destroy Orphan and/or Cocoon if the party doesn't cooperate, they're just his preferred method. When the party leaves Cocoon entirely, Dysley actives one such back-up plan and sets the stage for Cocoon to enter a civil war.

Is he magnificent?

To the public eye, "Galenth Dysley" is a helpless old man and a puppet to the Cocoon fal'Cie; no one suspects he is the most powerful fal'Cie of all. He also has quite an air of hamminess and flair — the guy's speechifying is pretty epic, Chewing the Scenery in every scene once he's revealed as the Big Bad. He sees people as nothing but tools for his plans, and directly refers to Cocoon as "a factory built by fal'Cie, for the mass production of human thralls." He repeatedly emotionally manipulates the party to do what he wants, including several Kick the Dog moments to enrage them and try to force them to destroy Cocoon. In the final battle with him, he conjures illusions of the crystallized Serah and Dajh (Sazh's son who was also a l'Cie) and shatters them in order to give them further cause to kill him. And in that, he sets up the circumstances of his death so that even with his defeat, his plan to destroy Cocoon succeeds.

Conclusion

Dysley treats all of humanity as disposable pawns with the objective of wiping the rest of them out, and he would have succeeded if not for a Deus ex Machina (literally - it's a long story but the sequel explains the party won because Etro intervened again)

Edited by DrakeClawfang on Jul 28th 2018 at 12:39:29 PM

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#3096: Jul 28th 2018 at 9:33:59 PM

Looking back on the conversation, it appears if someone brought up that, while Lyon was a great villain, there's more 'tragedy' in his story than 'magnificence.' Also, his agency seems to be hampered even in Ephraim's route (the route me and Lighty particularly agreed would be his best showing as a MB). It also appears he still has his moral agency compromised, which is why Golbez will never count as a MB.

Hmmm. I myself will have to think on it more before I make a decision. If it's too late, count me as an abstain for his cut.

That said, I do think this is a good chance to stress that MBs shouldn't be a catch-all for good villains. Really think about both components of "Magnificent Bastard" when proposing.

EDIT: Yes to Dysley.

Edited by erazor0707 on Jul 28th 2018 at 9:38:12 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#3097: Jul 28th 2018 at 9:42:42 PM

Yea to Dysley and I'm with you there Erazor, there are a plethora of smart, charming and understandable villains who won't quite meet the mark, doesn't make them any lesser characters for not hitting one archetype. For instance, I fucking loved Lord Shen but he's way too unhinged to hit this.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#3098: Jul 28th 2018 at 9:50:16 PM

[up] Yep. Same thing with General Leo of Final Fantasy VI. Great antagonist, but he's a "villain in name only." I thought of proposing, but he's only a "bastard" because he fights with the bad guys.

Edited by erazor0707 on Jul 28th 2018 at 9:52:56 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#3099: Jul 28th 2018 at 10:21:13 PM

[tup] To Dysley

Ditto for me to! Even if Eric Cartman doesn’t count because he’s such a racist sadistic asshole it’s those qualities that make him a memorable villain that I Love to Hate

Edited by G-Editor on Jul 28th 2018 at 7:25:44 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#3100: Jul 28th 2018 at 10:45:07 PM

Aye to Dysley. After seeing Apple's arguments...Count me as an abstain but leaning towards a bit no for Leon. And yeah, have to admit that not all great villains can be a Magnificent Bastard. Heck, I propose Yokai and Lucius and both of them got voted down even if people perceive both of them as a great villains even though they missed the mark to hit this trope which I agree with that.

Speaking of Leon...I think there would be the same issue for the future Brave Frontier character that I will propose later on. But I think I'll try to make a bit of a case here. His story is...Errmmm rather tragic. But there's some moments that he still in control of himself and a bit of a great planner when it comes to kill someone. Still, I think I'll save it for later rather than cut him from my to-do list. Will be a bit of an interesting discussion.

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jul 29th 2018 at 12:50:11 AM

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."

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