During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Tbh I never understood why The Man in Front of the Man had to be made a trope... don't Dragon-in-Chief and The Man Behind the Man make it clear enough, idk why a subtrope is needed to specifically denote that the real Big Bad is the seeming Dragon, rather than anyone else.
I'm gonna go ahead and try a 7th Venture Bros candidate which I think might make the cut since he's a mostly one shot villain that only had two major appearances, but has some impressive feats in the limited screen time he's given.
This character is from season 6 and 7 in the show where the Venture family begins living in New York and have to deal with a whole host of new villains that call the big apple their domain. In the background, the Guild of Calamitous Intent is struggling to survive after the events of the season 5 finale. One ambitious supervillain tries to earn his place in the new Council of 13 through a series of manipulations and betrayals.
Who is Copycat
◊?
A tall and handsome supervillain with a pension for suave lingo and tailored suits, Copycat is basically Dean Martin with duplication powers. First appearing in the season 6 episode, Faking Miracles, Copycat is invited to a civilian party in the home of New York's biggest villain, Wide Whale, and approaches Mrs Monarch, on the Council members, with a flirtatious demeanor. Thinking he's simply there to flirt, Copycat catches her off guard when he states he wants a position on the council. Their conversation is interrupted when the Monarch, Dr Venture's arch enemy, arrives to the party in costume, which angers Wide Whale as he is scaring his civilian contacts at the party. Sensing an opportunity to shame both the Monarch and his councilor wife, Copycat offers to give the Monarch one of his suits and leads him back to his apartment while covertly leaving a duplicate at the party.
In his apartment, Monarch is trying on one of the suits while Copycat slips into the Monarch's costume. Using one of the Monarch's tranquilizer darts to knock him out, Copycat then heads over to Dr Venture's tower next door and assaults Venture's bodyguard Sgt. Hatred and begins vandalizing the apartment complex atop the tower they live in. Keeping his face opposite the window, Copycat's duplicate back at the party then shows Mrs Monarch and the rest of the council the Monarch, really Copycat in his costume, urinating on the Venture's furniture. This is particularly bad because the Monarch lost his arching rights to Wide Whale as part of the deal to get him on the Council of 13, so everyone there is made to believe the Monarch is violating Guild law. Trying to call her husband, Copycat simply hangs up on her further enraging her. As she leaves the party, Copycat dresses the Monarch back in his costume, plants his phone back on him, and dumps his unconscious body out on the pavement to make it look like he was drunk. As the Monarch tries to argue his innocence by claiming his phone got stolen after getting knocked out, the phone rings and Mrs Monarch walks off in a huff. Copycat succeeds in seriously straining their marriage and publicly shaming the pair in front of their peers.
Copycat's second and last appearance is the season 7 episode, The Unicorn in Captivity, wherein he masterminds the heist of Dr Venture's groundbreaking new teleporter. The Monarch is told he'll be reinstated to a higher villain level and regain his arching rights if helps the Guild get their hands on the teleporter, and so becomes involved in Copycat's caper. Assembling a team of supervillains to various roles, Dot Com as the hacker, Tunnel Vision as the digger, Presto Change-O as the infiltrator, Ramburglar as the smash and grab, and the Monarch as aerial reconnaissance, Copycat lays out his plan. Tunnel Vision will dig under Dr Venture's lab, Presto Change-O turns into a snake to slide through the ventilation and plugs in Dot Com to the security system, she shuts off the alarms and doors, and Ramburglar lifts the Teleporter out and into the waiting van driven by the mysterious Driver X. Frustrated at being relegated to simple aerial reconnaissance, the Monarch watches the heist go perfectly as planned until the unexpected arrival of Brock Sampson in the lab.
Presto blows his cover but holds off Brock long enough for the hack to work and let in Ramburglar to blind side Brock and knock him out. Suddenly, two giant claws come out of nowhere and grab the teleporter pads, but only managing to take one. Surprise, the entire heist team was set up as decoys by Copycat who had planned for Brock to be in the building and eliminate his team while he whisked away the teleporters during the melee. Unbeknownst to Copycat, Monarch's loyal number two Henchman 21 overhears Copycat talking with his duplicates about the real plan and warns the Monarch just in time for him to be hit with a helicopter and knocked into Dr Venture's bedroom from outside with such force as to be launched through the bed and into the Venture panic room. Monarch lucks out and finds one of the teleporter pads in the panic room and is about to leave with it as Sgt Hatred finds him and shoots him. The bullets hit the pad and teleport to the other one, shooting Ramburglar multiple times causing him to collapse onto the pad face first with only his head making the trip.
Brock starts to wake up and Tunnel Vision and Presto run off with the other pad. A Copycat duplicate is piloting the helicopter that struck the Monarch and sets off explosives that blow open the building and allows him to make off with the entire panic room, thinking both pads are in there. Henchman 21 approaches the getaway vehicle with Dot Com and Driver X in it, only for Driver X to be another Copycat duplicate who promptly vanishes with intents to leave the team without an escape. Tunnel Vision is pulled back into the sewers by Brock to an unknown fate and Presto gets stabbed in the face while serving as a last distraction while 21 drives off with the other teleporter pad, accidentally leaving Dot Com behind to get arrested. In the meantime, Sgt Hatred manages a miraculous shot that hits the helicopter's rotor and causes it to crash land into Copycat's apartment. Seeing the crash incoming and no way to escape, Copycat sits back with a martini in his hand and calmly accepts his demise.
As the panic room falls, Monarch jumps through his pad and arrives in the van with 21, who promptly crashes it. Miraculously and hilariously, the other pads falls out of the wrecked panic room completely undamaged right on top of the other in the Monarch's lap and they escape before Brock catches up with them. In the end, Copycat's last plan ultimately was a success even if a cruel twist of fate saw that he didn't live to see it.
Is he charismatic?
This one is a very easy yes and he is shown to be a very classy and suave villain that never once looses his cool and remains calm and collected until the very end. In both appearance and attitude, he's basically Dean Martin, so that should explain a lot.
Is he intelligent?
As both his episodes show, Copycat is an incredibly skilled planner with how he set up the heist to succeed flawlessly to the point he needed it to and also thinks well on the move as his shaming of both the Monarch and Mrs Monarch was on the fly and he got away with it completely. He also makes incredible use of his superpower in both his appearances and is incredibly skilled in weaving his copies into his plans. His heist ultimately fell apart for him personally since I can't imagine he ever thought his helicopter would be brought down with small arms fire, so I don't feel like that can be held against him.
Is he a bastard?
Copycat is very much a villain and was setting up his peers to die or be arrested for his own gain. Granted, he never comes near to hurting any innocent people and everyone hurts by his actions are "bad guys" but the selfish betrayals are still more than enough to qualify as bastard material.
Any mitigating factors?
Here's the thing. I think Copycat strikes off all the boxes just fine, but the main issue is the show currently has 6 approved candidates, by far the highest of any single Western Animation show and Copycat could be a 7th. I'm not sure would each person here would call critical mass for anyone media, but Copycat has a good showing for such a relatively minor character so he's really not directly competing with anyone else.
Final Verdict?
I personally don't see an issue with his counting and he will absolutely by the last I would even consider, especially with the show now cancelled. I say a
, so what do you all think?
to Copycat. So now that Venture Bros have 7 MB’s does that mean it gets its own page?
oh didn’t notice the above post
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 12th 2020 at 7:53:52 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffThis is unfortunately a very difficult trope to find good quotes for. I lifted this from one of the videos.
Colonel Hunter Gathers: About your condition, General, Cardholder and Doe have been lying to you. You're not a hulk.
General Timothy Treister: I may be a crazy old SOB, but I ain't no shortbuser. I know there ain't no such things as hulks.
Colonel Hunter Gathers: Oh, well, that's not all sir, Cardholder and Doe are...
General Timothy Treister: Double agents angling to take over the OSI? Yep, know that too. Hell, son, I invented the secret keeping business...
There's also this one from Red Death that's a great quote, but I'm not sure if its too long or hits the heart of the trope just right.
Red Death: Oh, you're up. Goody. We can start your history lesson. Long before there were loudmouth buff guys in spandex, there was the gentleman villain. His favourite sinister act was this: tying someone to a train track. It's simple, inexpensive, personal and deadly, but it gives you a little hope - maybe you'll escape. [Blind Rage's muffled screams interrupt] Lesson's NOT over, sonny! *sighs* Now, the gentleman villain had these old school time-bombs, three sticks of dynamite wired to an alarm clock. And what was so poetic about that is that they ticked. You could hear them - tick tick tick. Nowadays they're just digital - no sound, no peril. [the sound of an approaching train is heard, getting closer] Oh, ohoho, do you hear that? There's the tick. The train is coming! Is it on this track? Tick tick tick. Maybe it's on the other track! Tick tick tick! *cackles maniacally* Not bad for an old man, huh? I'm gonna get going, let you try to escape. And if you do, tell the Peril Partnership that the Guild isn't scared of punks. If you don't, eh, sorry.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Nov 12th 2020 at 9:58:09 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.

Well you say he's The Man Behind the Man when in fact he's The Man in Front of the Man, so I'm gonna have to downvote, that's inexcusable!... In all seriousness I agree with 43, yes to Minion. Haven't seen that movie in ages, great find.
Edited by jjjj2 on Nov 12th 2020 at 8:40:55 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid