During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Ashleigh
Voiced by Patrick "Dracula" Seitz
Edited by miraculous on Nov 9th 2020 at 1:38:19 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Found this on Batman: Arkham City's character page, regarding Scarecrow. I'm pretty sure we dismissed him for being too sadistic (His pathetic defeat doesn't help matters). BTW, it's on the Penguin's character slide, who, if anyone's wondering, counts even less than Dr. Crane.
- Big Bad Wannabe: Of Arkham City and Arkham Knight. In the first case he's involved in a brutal mob war with the Joker and plans to kill him take his territory, then turn his attention to Hugo Strange and Arkham City. In the second its more subtle, but he makes no secret to his henchmen his plan to betray the other villains and take over once he restores his funds. He never comes close to any of his aims. Penguin is undisputedly a serious threat in his own right, but he is simply out of his depth compared to the likes of the Joker, Hugo Strange and the Scarecrow.
I'll change it to Manipulative Bastard or something.
to be fair, this game's Scarecrow is indeed Evil Is Cool. Just not MC material.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Nov 9th 2020 at 9:09:18 AM
Thanks, you'll find it potholed quite frequently as interchangeable with either a smart action or just to denote that someone feels the character is Evil Is Cool.
Speaking of potholes, here's one I found for Amanda Waller from Suicide Squad (2016) on Secret Identity:
- In Suicide Squad (2016), none of the Suicide Squad have secret identities, as they are all known criminals and Amanda Waller makes it pretty clear that she also knows Bruce is Batman.
I remember this thread agreed the DCEU incarnation of Waller doesn't count because she makes some big mistakes that leads to the whole situation spiralling out of control. There's also another unapproved wick on the page referring to Akumetsu:
- Subverted in Akumetsu, where the titular Guile Hero/Magnificent Bastard doesn't really care about it as much as most of the examples on this page.
Never read that manga, so I can't weigh in. I removed both potholes and linked to the thread. If anyone wants to do an EP on either of them, feel free to do so.
After playing through another video game series in Elephant Games Shared Universe of games i found couple of candidates i will be proposing in CM thread and one i will propose here
What's the setting?
Grim Tales
is one of the most long running series of hidden object games from Elephant Games
and one of its most popular game series', reaching the number of 19 games at this moment (the only other series that also have this number of games in Elephant Games library is Haunted Hotel (and Elephant Games only took over its development from 5 game onward after taking it from Specialbit Studios)). Grim Tales follows Anna Gray (later on some bonus chapters followed her relatives or friends), a private detective, who has the ability to go into the past (which she has inherited from her family), which helps her to solve her cases. Anna tempres with the time a lot, almost regularly changing some events to either improve the lives of the villains, resulting in them not being evil in the present, or stopping horrible events from happening (like preventing the plane, which had defects that would have resulted in its crushing and the deaths of over a hundred people, from flying, ending up saving many people).
Anna faced a lot of opponents in her career, but there is one, who became a reccuring character in the series and the starter villain of the saga - Anna's father, Richard Gray.
As usual i'm going to link in the EP relevant videos or links to walkthroughs, where people can check and verify information.
Who is Richard Gray? What has he done?
From the backstory, revealed to us in the bonus chapter in The White Lady
, where we play as him, Richard studied in "Hogwarts Expy School" along with his friend Gabriel and his Love Interest Alessia. After Gabriel decided to study Dark Magic instead, due to thinking it is the more powerful type of magic, and unleashed the abomination Obsess upon the school, Richard uncovered his involvement and motivations and tracked him down, but during their fight, Alessia was accidentally killed, resulting in Richard making the deal with Gabriel on resurrecting Alessia in exchange for Richard allowing Gabriel to wipe out his memory of this event forever, leading to strange symbols being carved on his head and hands and Richard himself starting to get involved in dark magic to find out about their origin.
This leads us the events of the first game in the series "The Bride"
, where he became known as "The Demon", Richard had few daughters from several women, most of whom he used as a sacrifice for his ritual to become truly immortal. Imprisoning the husband of one of his daughters (Luisa Gray), John Gray, in his dungeon, Richard lured Anna Gray to his mansion, where he captured Luisa and led Anna through Luisa's memories, as he planned to use their souls as the final component in his ritual. Anna thwarted his plans, knocked him down with tranquillizer gun, leading to his death from being buried as his ritual room got destroyed.
You can watch the full walkthrough of that game here
Returning as far less brutal and vile person in The Heir
(link to the full walkthrough here
), Richard appeared as a ghost to Anna, saying to her that he don't blame her for killing him and offers his help and taking down his father (revealing that Richard was the one who destroyed him in the first place), Samuel Gray, who plans to use Richard's great grandson Billy as his new host.
Advising Anna to go into the past, Richard uses the ghosts of Twins (his deceased daughters, as told in the first game) to manipulate Anna into recreating the Mask of Death, which allowed Richard to return to physical world as a ghost, revealing that all of that was simply to trick Anna into return him into the land of the living, before he gives her an advise and starts actually assisting her in her efforts to stop Samuel, even saving her from death several times.
As Richard and Brandon got captured by Samuel and Richard was imprisoned in the skull, Richard devised a new plan, he told Anna to fix the Black Crown, which would give him a power bust necessary to hold off Samuel, while Anna would perform the ritual, which would defeat Samuel. As Anna succeeds in her task, Richard engages in battle with Samuel (while still being a skull), while Anna perform the ritual. Samuel was still able to overpower Richard and was ready to take over Billy's body, but Brandon shielded Billy, leading to Samuel's soul being defeated by Brandon's love for his son.
In the bonus chapter, Richard led the Gray family to his secret room, after Elena Gray suddenly collapsed and spit blood, in the hopes to heal her. Seemingly helpful and caring, Richard led Anna to travel into the past and recover the Soul's Heart, there he reveals that he was the one, who cursed Elena with sickness and traps Anna in the past, as he plans to use Soul's Heart to fully ressurect himself and become more powerful than ever, before he says "The Family Code" to Anna and leaves. As Anna realizes that that he tells her to use the family code book to go through the portal, she tracks him down and they battle, with Anna once again ending up victorious. Richard congratulated her on her victory and before disappearing grants her eternal youth, making elderly Anna young again. When Anna cured Elena and leaves, Richard watches over her and reveals that this was nothing more than a test, as he says that "The Elders should take care of the young ones", before revealing that he trapped Samuel's soul in the body of a rat.
Returning again in Crimson Hollow
, Richard reveals that he was never going away from Anna and always watched over her, as he helps her uncover the case, becoming her full on ally for the rest of the series and helping her save her relatives and her daughter (whom he showed genuine affection in later games) and even fighting off powerful ghosts and pretty much coming up with most of the plans for Anna on his own to help her save the day. I'm not covering those games as he is straight up heroic there and it will take too much space anyway.
Is he too much of a bastard?
For the series, where most villains engage in brainwashing, murder, serial murder, devour souls and one even attempted a mass sacrifice, Richard comes off pretty tame, even if his crimes are nearly always directed at his own family, he wanted to sacrifice his two daughters and told that he already sacrificed at least two before them, poisons the wife of his grandson in an effort to fully ressurect himself and manipulates Anna into doing his bidding several times. Even then all his crimes were shown to serve a purpose (aka learning about the dark magic and the origin of his marks) and achieve true immortality (which he isn't shown to do out of any fear or cowardice, as he is pretty fearless and witty through all of his appearances). He isn't shown to be sadistic or petty and he never engages in anything truly revolting.
How does he operate?
Richard, from his second appearance, is shown to be sarcastic and witty, smart enough to come up with many plans, nearly all of which succeeded and managed to make Anna trust him, even after he tried to kill her before, manipulating her into bringing him back into the world, coming up with a plan to defeat Samuel (whom he is shown to have imprisoned in the body of a rat in the bonus chapter), led her through his test, at the end of which he granted her eternal youth and immortality out of nothing but his own generosity and is good at making other people trust him as well. Even when he becomes a heroic figure, he still is the one, who comes up with most of the plans, holds off powerful forces and pretty much guides Anna to her victories and helps her analyze the sitution.
Conclusion?
What do you think?
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Nov 9th 2020 at 10:47:23 PM
No problem with someone becoming a Magnificent Good Guy if they had a run as a Magnificent Bastard. Yes there.
- Etrigan: The demon Etrigan, reinvented as a ruthless and brilliant prince of hell, is the son of Belial, father of lies. Learning his lessons well, even as bonded to human Jason Blood, Etrigan frequently outwits enemies with aplomb, even conniving his way into taking over hell itself twice. Having defeated both the spirit of Gotham itself when summoned by his cousin Asteroth and a resurgence of Nazis by rallying the Haunted Tank and its regimen, Etrigan even connives a war between heaven, hell and purgatory for the enjoyment of seeing demonic rivals fall, later stealing the trident of Lucifer for another attempt to take over hell and enjoy the resulting chaos.
Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 9th 2020 at 12:09:09 PM

to Ashleigh
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff