During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Did we ever discuss anyone from Haven. Was thinking do doing a rewatch for a couple like William or the final Big Bad Crotoan (as played by the one and only Willaim "Captain Kirk" Shatner). So was curious if anyone else has seen it
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Okay, these are late, but I got a trio of candidates from the same overall franchise incoming.
What's the setting?
Kamen Rider is one the two big Sentai (Japanese shorthand for "costumed superhero shows", more recognizable to the average Westerner as "the genre that Power Rangers ripped off") shows, alongside Super Sentai. The premise is tried and true; over a variety of timelines and settings, people from Japan manage to get their hands on a transforming suit and a Cool Bike that lets them become a superpowered Kamen Rider and use it to fight Monster of the Week baddies. The gimmicks, the co-Riders, the monsters and so on vary from series to series (as does the quality—you can go from the phenomenal Kamen Rider Drive into the black hole of stupidity known as Kamen Rider Ghost.
I'm gonna pluck out a candidate from Kamen Rider W to begin with, the 2009-2010 season of the series. Our candidate is "Shroud", AKA Fumine Sonozaki.
Who is Shroud? What has she done?
Fumine Sonozaki used to be the matriarch of the powerful, ambitious Sonozaki family (which would later manifest into the villainous organization known as the Museum). Fumine and her husband Ryubee loved each other until Ryubee became corrupted by his own power and ambition, attempting to use their son Raito as a tool for the sake of his own advancement. Fumine went full Mama Bear on her husband and received a face full of acid for it. Fumine survived, though barely, wrapped her burned face in acid and modified her voice, and adopted the identity of the mysterious "Shroud." Consumed by equal parts hate for Ryubee and love for her son, her goal became to get revenge on Ryubee and to save her son Raito no matter what.
Shroud plays mysterious onlooker for a large section of the series and it's unclear for a while if she's acting as their ally or their enemy. Raito, at this point, has died and been resurrected as the amnesiac Philip by the very consciousness of the Earth, the True Gaia Memory. Philip and the primary hero of the series, a detective named Shotaro Hidari, team up as Kamen Rider Double in their efforts to fight the Museum and regain Philip's memory.
Shroud has been helping the Riders even before she properly became Shroud; she designed the Gaia Memories the Kamen Riders use to gain powers in the series. This even extends to Shotaro's deceased mentor and the Big Good of the series, Sokichi Narumi, whom Shroud saved the life of and gave him the Memory in order to become Kamen Rider Skull. Shroud steps in every once in a while in the present day in order to save the life of her amnesiac son.
The depths of Shroud's merciless manipulations become more apparent as the series goes on, though. Shroud is The Man Behind the Man to the Weather Dopant, providing a Gaia Memory to a serial-killing loon named Isaka who goes onto kill the family of one of the other heroes of the series, Ryu Terui. While Shroud genuinely didn't anticipate the amount of carnage Isaka would create, Shroud works it to her advantage; Shroud manipulates Ryu's vengeful rage for her own ends, facilitating the events that lead to him becoming Kamen Rider Accel with the intention to use Ryu as her weapon against the Museum.
Shroud eventually becoming a sort of Evil Mentor toward him, ruthlessly training him for the upgrade necessary for the power to defeat Ryubee. When Ryu ends up looking past his hatred for Isaka, Shroud arranges for Ryu to die by giving him a Memory she knows he'll lose control of and kill him. Thankfully, he survives).
Ultimately, Shroud has a pretty big Heel Realization toward the end of the show and comes clean about all the misery she's responsible for. Shroud and Ryu come to peace when Shroud admits she's indirectly responsible for the death of his family and she reveals who she truly is to Philip. Shroud manages to gain her ultimate goal after all without fully succumbing to her own hatred; she provides vital help to the heroes in defeating Ryubee and Raito, although he sacrifices himself in the penultimate episode, is restored to life in the finale. The last we see Shroud, she's repentant, weighed down by her sins, but at peace.
What's her competition like?
Shroud is playing the Museum for the majority of the series and it's a pretty tough battle. Ryubee is more Orcus on His Throne than anything else, and while his and Shroud's two daughters are ruthless operators both of them are ultimately undone by their own flaws and die tragically. Shroud's not quite playing chessmaster for the entire series but she's close enough to doing so I think she stands well out regardless; she plays the heroes and the secondary villains like chumps on the regular and she ultimately proves victorious against the Museum when she summons the pride to admit her hatred's doing more harm than help. Not much concern here.
Is she too much of a bastard?
Shroud strikes pretty much the exact right balance here. She's almost entirely unfettered, directly giving the means for Isaka to go on to kill dozens of people and ruthlessly manipulating a man orphaned by Isaka into becoming her personal weapon, only to discard him when he's not up to the task. Still, Shroud is very obviously overcome with guilt for what she does, truly regrets that Isaka went on to kill as many people as he did and has enough humanity to divorce herself from her hatred before it takes over her completely.
How does she operate?
Shroud is defined at all times by a cool and impenetrable mystique. While she lacks the outright affability my next two candidates have, she makes up for it with ruthless tenacity, persistence, and her ability to play on equal terms with an entire villainous organization using nothing but her own cunning. The show treats her with an abundance of sympathy toward the end without totally letting her let go of her awful deeds. She's well enough of a brilliant operator to qualify here.
Conclusion?
One of the easier keepers in the franchise.
to the Shroud
Alright here are my write-ups for Mad Men:
- Mad Men:
- Bertram "Bert" Cooper is the senior partner and co-founder of Sterling Cooper Advertising Agency whose eccentric exterior hides a brilliant and determined mind earning the respect and admiration of his fellow workers. Bert would make his authority clear within the agency when he foils Pete Campbell's plan to blackmail Don Draper by saying that he doesn't about Don's past and Bert himself would later use Don's past to successfully blackmail him into signing a contract that would merge Sterling Cooper with a British Agency; when said agency sells Sterling Cooper, Bert and his partners decide to form a new agency, Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce (SCDP), where Bert would use his love for Japanese culture get them their first major client in Honda. Bert would temporally leave SCDP when Don's ad article puts the agency in hot water before returning again, conspiring with Pete and Joan behind Don, eventually getting Don kicked out from the agency with the help of Jim Cutler. Bert would later rehire Don as creative director to foil Jim Cutler's plans to take over the agency before Bert passes away as he watches the Apollo 11 Moon Landing, dying in complete bliss.
- Bob Benson is a conman who uses his charisma to persuade people into hiring him and not look into his criminal past. Working as an accountant for Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce, Bob wins Joan Harris's friendship when gets Joan immediate treatment for her abdominal pain by lying to a nurse that Joan has been poisoned and gets along with Pete Campbell when working on the Chevy account with, until Pete discovers Bob's homosexuality and criminal past; Bob would remain undaunted by Pete's threats, merely threatening him back and use his likability to get people to turn against Pete. When Pete believes that his mother was killed by her nurse that Bob suggested to Pete, Bob becomes disgusted When Pete accuses him of being an accomplice to his mother's murder and would manipulate Pete into humiliating himself in front of Chevy getting Pete removed from the account. Leaving for Detroit, Bob would propose Joan to get an executive position at General Motors before accepting Joan's decision to decline Bob's marriage proposal.
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 8th 2020 at 12:39:50 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffIt looks like I'm gonna be even more busy and stressed soon, but hey, the Events of Saturday were pretty Damn great, Thus I wanted to make sure this weekend continued with and ending on a Positive note. So after awhile, and after some Gratuitous help from 43! I've finally completed this
Whats the work?
Most of us have heard of the Full metal alchemist Franchise, a World where Alchemy is both correct and has geniune Supernatural powers, featuring a Rich story and we'll Constructed world with loads upon loads of themes, real world Parallels and so forth.
It is also an extremely popular Franchise, Wich resulted in an Anime film being produced with an Original story set in the Brotherhood Canon, Fullmetal Alchemist:Sacred Star of Milos.
The plot involves the Elric brothers getting Tangled with a Complex conflict in the Nearby nation of Creta. After pursuing 'Melvin Voyager' a prisoner who mysteriously broke out of jail just months before he would have been free. He claims to be a man named Ashleigh Crighton and is looking for his younger sister Julia, who was seperated from her brother after a Tragedy befell there Family years ago. After eventually meeting with Julia,it becomes clear 'Ashleigh' has secrets.....
Watching everything from the backdrop is the mysterious Lieutenant Colonel Herschel of the Cretan military, currently engaged in a conflict over the land of Milos where Julia and her freedom fighter outfit seek the Sanguine Star.
This film, as with most Installments of the Franchise, also has a number of twists and Turns, including the following being a Major Walking Spoiler. Unmarked spoilers ahead
Who is Colonel Herschel?
In actuality the real Ashleigh Crighton who as a child had his face stolen by the guard Atlas assigned to protect them who also killed his parents for their research on the Sanguine Star, another name for the Philosophers Stone. Using a Sanguine Star his parents had hidden to survive, Ashleigh used a mask and his talents to rise in the Cretan military, determined to take revenge on the nation of Milos for driving out his family as a child. Observing events throughout the film, Ashleigh secretly sends chimeras to look after Julia and begins making his move once Atlas surfaces.
Attacking Julia's freedom fighter group, the Black Bats, whom are being manipulated by Atlas—now wearing Ashleigh's face—the real Ashleigh commands his forces from a far, ordering bombings to impede Atlas' schemes and eventually moves into the fray personally at the film's climax. With Julia winding up with the Sanguine Star, Ashleigh personally catches the monstrous Atlas and brutally kills him.
Revealing his intent to create a better world via opening the gate of truth, Ashleigh tries to convince Julia to join him in wiping out Milos for their rejection of their family and to get her to use the power of her own Star to help him craft his ideal world. Nearly wiping out the valley of Milos, Ashleigh engages in combat while the heroes work to stop the flow of magma he's using. Julia eventually manages to sap the power of his Star and renders him unconscious, though she finds herself unable to kill her misguided brother and sacrifices her leg and the rest of the power in her Star to keep him alive.
After having his face restored, Ashleigh elects to transmute a pair of earrings Julia and he wore as a sign to her before donning his mask once more to peacefully return to the Cretan military, accepting of the outcome of events. It is implied he will work towards seeing Milos regain independence to atone for his actions
Is He Magnificent?
He's both an Incredibly skilled alchemist and a Genius planner who, after his mutilation is able to set up a fake life and Climb through the ranks of the Cretan Military plotting and arranging his plan for Vengeance for years. And Hijacks Atlas own well thought out scheme to benefit his own, Plays him into creating the Star and after Using him getting revenge on the man who killed his parents and stole his face while making sure Atlas knows who he is and that he got Played before smashing the Bastards head in.
Bastard? Too much?
Ashleigh is one of the most Evil Characters in the franchise, He is a Knight Templar who's plan involves allowing a large tribal community be killed by Lava, and he wants to destroy his Whole country for the Sake of Revenge and is even briefly willing to Kill his own Sister when she Stands in his way, Hershel is an Evil, Evil man no Question.
All that being said? He is very much portrayed as a tragic Figure, he and his sister were exposed to violence and death at a young age, and there Family was forced to leave there home country, and his parents were murdered with him being Mutilated and his identity stolen by there killer, He also desires to make the world a better place with the Truths power after getting revenge on his country, and by the end after his sister Saves and heals him he seems Content having been defeated and simply leaves Gracefully, with it being Implied he'll become The Atoner
He also genuinely, deeply cares for his sister, and only Tries to Kill her after she makes it clear she shall stand between him and his plan he thinks will make a better world. And even after his Defeat, he gives her a pair of earrings as a Gift, showing his love for her is very much still there.
He's definitely on the Brutal end of the Spectrum, but I don't think he's too vile for this, especially given he contrasts the Selfish Monster Atlas is with his Tragedy and Genuine good Intentions.
What's the competition?
The only Major competitor is Security Chief Atlas himself, who is notably quite intelligent and formed a Well thought out plan for several years, and is able to play the part of Ashleigh and manipulate the protagonists throughout the film.....
He's also a Sadistic Egomaniac with the Emphasis firmly in how Vile he is, and ends up thoroughly outdone and used by Herschel before being killed.
Mitigating Factors?
The one thing I could maybe see causing issues for him….We don't really get a 'How' in regards to how he plans to absorb truth once he gets to the gate…I'm tempted to give a bit of leniency there, its a minor detail that the film doesn't go into much detail on, and from his wording it's unclear if he knows the truth is sentient, let alone literally being this universes version of God, rather then simply some sort of absorbable power. And even then, as 43 said on PM the Truth has been shown to be willing to Negotiate with people.
While he yells a bit in the Final Act, its not much of a Villainous Breakdown as much as just 'Hammy Anime villain'
His goal to destroy Milos itself? Isn't played with genocidal tones, he's Milosian himself and views this as destroying the land that chased away his parents because of their bigoted views towards Alchemists. Nothing anywhere near the fascistic undertones of Amestris.
Final Verdict?
IMO, A firm keeper and the last FMA keeper unless some new installment comes out some time. Thankyou all for your patience and thanks for your help 43!
And while finding it was a Nightmare, I'm also Glad to have seen the film for the EP, I sort of suspected it would be more of a Cash Grab but its actually a legitimately really Fun flick and does a good job fitting in the Universe nicely.
Bow to the Prototype

43: Thanks.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread