During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Bert.
There's also a spelling error in Mr. White's entry; Vesper is Vesper Lynd, no "e" on the end.
Edited by k410ren on Nov 7th 2020 at 11:44:15 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsSo today I dicuss examples from one of my favorite authors. Since Im busy with university work. Ill start with the guys who the best examples and do the more dicussion worthy examples later. Like what i did with once upon a time.
Whats the work ?
The Otherworld is an Urban Fantasy series by Kelley Armstrong, also marketed under the title Women of the Otherworld. It's based on the idea that Things That Go "Bump" in the Night exist, but hide behind the Masquerade from humans. Each novel is narrated by one of a rotating cast of supernatural women. The plots of each novel typically include action, mystery, and romance in equal proportions. While the novels can be read alone, or in order of each narrator, minor jokes and plot details only make sense to those who have read the earlier novels.
There are thirteen books in the series, which is on indefinite hiatus. The author also writes a Lighter and Softer Young Adult series set in the same universe, called Darkest Powers, which is still continuing.
The supernatural races include clairvoyants, druids, half-demons, necromancers, shamans, sorcerers, vampires, vodoun priests, werewolves, and witches.
There are four books narrated by Elena Michaels, werewolf; two books narrated by Paige Winterbourne, witch; one book narrated by Eve Levine, witch/half-demon/ghost/angel; one book narrated by Jaime Vegas, necromancer; one book narrated by Hope Adams, half-demon; three books narrated by Savannah Levine, witch; and one book narrated by multiple people. In addition there are many short stories and novellas in anthologies or on the author's website.
Who is Karl Marsten?
A charming, jewel thief and Thrill Seeker, Marsten is a heridtary werewolf (meaning he was born one) and is following in his father's footsteps. He dreamed as a kid of joining the pack (the offical leaders of north americas werewolves) When Marsten was seventeen he saw his father ripped apart by the pack's leader the wicked Malcolm Danvers and had to flee, he trained himself over years as an expert fighter and theif and came years later for revenge only to see Malcolm was now gone with Elena and her boyfriend Clayton now in charge of the pack. Dasging his revenge hopes and childhood dreams.
Anyway Karl has an interesting MO as a Mutt werewolf (one not connected to the pack). When he enters a territory he likes he scouts the local werewolves that live their, discovers their weaknesses. Then he orders them to a dinner with a luxurious, expensive meal specially made. He gives them a simple demand: this territory is now mine and if you don't leave. You die. Anyone who doesn't finds themselves dead in a dumpster in a few days. Karl specializes in stealing the most priceless of gems, either infilitraing flashy museums and then using disguises and false identities to steal them or seducing dowagers and stealing it from them when their preoccupied. Infiltrating and then making his way in before vanishing in a flash. He's become quite rich as a result and flaunts it through the snazziest of suits and nicest of outfits. He also invites the pack to record any of his kills plus to win and dine them and make sure their off his back being in a weird Friendly Enemy situation (they would only come down on him if he killed an actual human). He's personable but with a very dangerous demenour underneath that.
Anyway Marsten wants more though. He wants territory. A place to permantly put up his hat, the pack wont allow that unless he joins them though. He's approached by an enemy of the pack called Daniel Santos. Santos desires full control and the end of the pack so is gathering guys on their most wanted list and then siring killers and criminials as werewolves to overpower them. Marsten agrees since it will give him territory and as he says well : The pack hasnt done anything bad to him. They havent done anything for him either. Anyway Santos pares them in twos (one experinced weewolf and one killer. Marsten ends up getting paired with the batshit crazy misgonustic serail killer / serial rapist Thomas Le Blanc (who he doesnt really like but it just going along with it for now).
Anyway Marsten and Elena met and the two talk.
- Elena: I never pegged you for an anarchist type.
- Marsten: "Anarchist?" He laughed. "Hardly. The others have their reasons for wanting the Pack dead, most of which have to do with allowing them to indulge some rather nasty, antisocial habits. The Pack has never given me any trouble. Of course, they've never done anything for me either. So, in a gesture of reciprocity, I don't care what happens to the Pack one way or the other. i just want my territory.
- Elena: So if you got that. You'd back off.
- Marsten: "And abandon my fellow anarchists? That would be the act of a despicable, unconscionable rogue, someone completely absorbed in furthering his own fortunes at the expense of others. Does that sound like me?
Anyway what begins is a cat and mouse game as the two sides go against each other, Marsten making sure to keep favour of both for now to capitilize on the winner. During one of theirclashes with elena he offers to betray Daniel in return for territory. She says no so he has her captured along with clay. planning to see who he'll win and play the situation to his advantage. Anyway Thomas gets pissed and wants to kill elena (as well as rape) so kills Dnaiel and takes control. Marsten plays his feelings and makes him think he'll untie her and bring her for him..only to backstab him and free elena and then attack Thomas to open up an oepning for elena to finish him off. Anyway as planned, Elena lets him have his territory.
Anyway later books have Marsten as more of an Anti-Hero, He helps his girlfriend Hope Adams and joins the pack as a Sixth ranger of sorts. Hleping them take down nasties like May Donovan, the Tesler brothers , the haig brothers and adele morriesy. He even combines with lucifer in the final battle to become a superpowered being and help the heroes finish off Gilles de rais and save the world. But the man never loses his style in all of it.
Magnificent ?
To the max. Hes charming, amoral, and delightfully deadpan. He wears the most expensive of suits He knows how to read people and get them to do what he wants and hes patient. He'll scout an area and person and disover all their weaknesses then use it to his advantage. He has no true malice to anyone unless they hurt somone he cares about, Its just business. We see him constantly come up with daring plans and play both Santos pack of killers and the pack against each other well tricking Thomas into blundering and then using that to get his territory. Yet theirs also genuine tragedy to his charcater as he always did dream along with his father of joining the pack only to see it all taken away from him as a teenager. Yet he carries himself with such grace...hes widely considered before he joined them to be the pack's most dangerous opponent as he never leaves himself open to a weakness. Hes a true friendly enemy too being actually quite charming and amoral. It says alot that the author gave him so many later apperances becuase of the impact he leaves.
Bastard ?
Oh Yeah Marsten robs people blind of their valuables to enrich himself and for fun. Kills any other mutt werewolves if they dont take his gracious and kind offer to leave and is fully on board with the rogues plans. yet he does it all with style and with zero malice and sadism . Its just how it is. He's a friendly enemy and later a great ally to the pack and a loving father, son and husband. Even the pack admitt that he is quite charming that its hard to hate him. Plus this is the otherworld: killers, rapists, and vile monsters run galore as shown by this Page. Hes not nearly to the territory of any of these guys.
Conclusion ?
I'd give him a yeah.
Edited by miraculous on Nov 7th 2020 at 11:57:01 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."He order the dinners to the mutt werewolves whose place he wants. With the pack to avoid them going after him, he just charms them with gifts as well telling them his mutt kills for accounting purposes. He knows he couldnt beat the entire pack.
Edited by miraculous on Nov 7th 2020 at 12:29:04 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Yeah that was the only thing I was confused about, like "how could he threaten an entire pack?", but you're making it clear he's getting by mostly on cunning and skill, threatening other werewolves all by there lonesome.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midAnd a yes, here's a guy long overdue, too:
What's the work?
The Mysterious Cities of Gold is a French/Japanese production beginning in 1532 and centering upon young Esteban, quoting the tropes page: " a boy raised by the monks of the Cathedral in Barcelona who posseses two unusual things: An amulet shaped like a crescent moon, and the ability to summon the sun. Following the death of his caretaker, Esteban departs for the New World in search of his family. Along the way, he meets Zia, Tao, Mendoza, Sancho, Pedro, and Kokapetl. Together, this unlikely band sets out to find the cities of gold."
Now, let's talk...Mendoza.
Who is Mendoza?
Juan Carlos Mendoza, a Spanish navigator trained by Ferdinand Magellan. Long ago, Mendoza was on a fateful voyage with the baby Esteban and his father. When the two were swept into sea, Mendoza jumped in to save them, but was only able to rescue Esteban. The baby had a medallion with a Sun Crest Mendoza 'borrowed' and researched to discover a link to the lost city of gold in the New World....realizing his and Esteban's destinies were linked, Mendoza found him again and convinced him to accomany him to the new world. Initially, Mendoza is something of a selfish and greedy man, intending to manipulate Esteban to steal all the gold he can carry.
Mendoza is the guy who navigates the ship from Spain to the new world through a variety of dangers, even taking on a giant shark to save the others...the kids? Mendoza manipulates them to lead him t the City of Gold, playing on their trust and evading the Spanish Conquistadors and other dangers and villains through the new world, eventually learning of the ancient Olmec civilization that poses a huge threat.
Now, Mendoza is constantly outwitting and defeating Spaniards and Olmecs alike...now, Mendoza has a few great moments, namely when a villain poisons a river to wipe out a village, Mendoza saves them by causing a flood to destroy most of the village. Nobody is hurt, but they do need to rebuild...Mendoza eventually grows to love the kids more and begins growing to help them and stop the Olmecs....as well as the Spanish who are besieging the Incas. Notably, he betrays the children and joins the Conquistadors...so he can steal their cannons and deliver them to the Inca to fight back, securing a victory against the villains' forces. The series ends with the heroes victorious and the Olmecs defeated, with new adventures ahead for our heroes, and more to explore...
How's he operate? Any mitigating Factors?
Mendoza is bad at only one thing: understanding the ruins and tech of the ancient precursors, which is why he needs the kids who have the special bloodlines. Beyond that, Mendoza is a suave bastard, hypercompetent, a brilliant and intelligent man who flawlessly uses the kids, manipulates the spaniards and forms competent gambits on the fly.
Mendoza is rarely ever out of his depth, if ever. He knows his limitations and takes steps to fix them before going into situations. He's not flawless, but he's good and it's all peppered with a lot of good qualities. The fact is, he starts off as a ruthless and greedy man willing to manipulate children, steal and betray to get his hands on the gold, but gradually transitions to being a better man. He's willing to wipe out a village (without casualties) to save them, and helps secure the defeat of the spanish with a fake defection. Mendoza is really on the cusp of how bad one can be, but he's absolutely treated as....gray by the narrative and with enough villainous motivation and action who gradually morphs onward.
But yeah, he's really one of the big stars of the show.
Conclusion?
An easy yes to Mendoza.

I have a question about MagnificentBastard.James Bond. It says that Elektra King used a nuclear "meltdown" but it was actually a nuclear "explosion" in the dub I've seen.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman